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Topic closed!!!
Subject: »U20 - Users who broke agreement
it's my mistake, i have hate for liars and it's not good for me
To those who are frustrated by the lost match, please consider that making a mistake should not be confused with cheating. We all make mistakes and mikefull obviously regrets that mistake. Imagine if you had forgot about some arrangement and be called a cheater for that.
Mistakes happen and both sides can learn from that. Make sure the agreement to play U20 is really confirmed by the other side. And also if it does go wrong just ask the other manager in private before calling him a cheater in public. The other manager might not even know he did something wrong.
Topic reopened in hope the discussion will get in the right direction again. Please respect the forum rules and refrain from insults.
(edited)
Mistakes happen and both sides can learn from that. Make sure the agreement to play U20 is really confirmed by the other side. And also if it does go wrong just ask the other manager in private before calling him a cheater in public. The other manager might not even know he did something wrong.
Topic reopened in hope the discussion will get in the right direction again. Please respect the forum rules and refrain from insults.
(edited)
Thank you MatzeG for reopening this topic. I like its idea - it is good that coaches get the information about problems appearing at the NT scene. But as you already said, these claims should be verified and should not be used to insult others on the very first occasion. I still hope that Artista realizes his mistake and expresses his public apology for what he said. Accusing people from being cheaters and notorious liars is inacceptable. Especially if the only "wrong" thing we did is that we defended someone who could not have defended himself at the time. We are not cheaters or liars - and we expect that noone dares call us as such.
(The public apology should be of course directed to R.Fiets as well.)
(The public apology should be of course directed to R.Fiets as well.)
Ost, please, let this forum sleep for a few days. Some things need time...
I just want to hear a public apology for the insults that I have been told - nothing more. And it's already late at this moment, so I cannot wait any longer.
Do you support Vyšehrad in real life??
The new Czech tv show with the player actually getting to play for the team is pretty cool. Have you heard of it?
The new Czech tv show with the player actually getting to play for the team is pretty cool. Have you heard of it?
Hello sokker freaks :)
I opened this topic before 3 years. As I wrote on my first post ([url)http://sokker.org/forum_topic/ID_forum/1259/ID_topic/3097143/pg/1]page 1[/url]) the intention was to inform and to be informed about users who promise to play with U20 and despite this they play with U21.
I also asked you to keep your report simple, stay on the facts.
After a few posts, still on page 1, user väinämöinen warned me of a "crucade". (I must admitt he was right... Now I feel a little upset about what happened in the past days, so I decided to write my thoughts)
After 3 years I have learned some new things and I want to share my thoughts with you:
1.
Information is good to be free, especially if people get upset.
2.
To put labels on other people stops every possible way of discussion.
(What are labels? Labels are phrases like "you are a cheater", "he is a liar", "you are angry" etc. It helps more the discussion to use verbs like "you cheated", "you told a lie", "you spoke angry")
3.
Intention or not, does not play a role for the victim. So if somebody makes a mistake, the worst thing is giving explanations. If a mistake happened, the only thing that I would suggest is to admit the mistake, to offer something and to ask.
Example: "I played with 21yo player, you are right. I also feel bad about it. How about playing on week X again, you with your U21 and me with my U20. If you think it is not enough, please let me know what i could do now." In this case do not expect nothing. It takes time to people (like me) to get out of the situation of feeling angry. Give time and step in the shoes of the other part.
4.
Finally, for all similar situations that happen to me in the past, I am responsible too!!!
Respons-ability means that I could send an email 2 days before the match and ask if everything will happen as arranged.
Respons-ability means to inform the user, that if he will not reply to my mail on the next 2 days, I will play with U21.
Respons-ability means I check his squad to see if he has more than 14 U20 players.
Respons-ability means the ability to response (react) on situations.
Responsabiltiy also means that I am aware that if the other person is cheating, then this happens because in his eyes I am better and stronger. I do not need to get down to his level and start telling him how bad he is.
5.
Since I started to act in this way 130 weeks have passed. In this time I played 41 U20- or U19-games and in all of them all people kept their word and you know what? I prefer the new situation rather than the old situation when I was the poor victim.
SUMMARY:
- Please keep the intention of this topic on mind: To inform and to be informed about users who promise to play with U20 and despite this they play with U21.
- Also please keep in mind: Keep your report simple, just stay on the facts. Nothing more. Nobody asked you to put labels.
- Responsible or Victim? You choose.
I opened this topic before 3 years. As I wrote on my first post ([url)http://sokker.org/forum_topic/ID_forum/1259/ID_topic/3097143/pg/1]page 1[/url]) the intention was to inform and to be informed about users who promise to play with U20 and despite this they play with U21.
I also asked you to keep your report simple, stay on the facts.
After a few posts, still on page 1, user väinämöinen warned me of a "crucade". (I must admitt he was right... Now I feel a little upset about what happened in the past days, so I decided to write my thoughts)
After 3 years I have learned some new things and I want to share my thoughts with you:
1.
Information is good to be free, especially if people get upset.
2.
To put labels on other people stops every possible way of discussion.
(What are labels? Labels are phrases like "you are a cheater", "he is a liar", "you are angry" etc. It helps more the discussion to use verbs like "you cheated", "you told a lie", "you spoke angry")
3.
Intention or not, does not play a role for the victim. So if somebody makes a mistake, the worst thing is giving explanations. If a mistake happened, the only thing that I would suggest is to admit the mistake, to offer something and to ask.
Example: "I played with 21yo player, you are right. I also feel bad about it. How about playing on week X again, you with your U21 and me with my U20. If you think it is not enough, please let me know what i could do now." In this case do not expect nothing. It takes time to people (like me) to get out of the situation of feeling angry. Give time and step in the shoes of the other part.
4.
Finally, for all similar situations that happen to me in the past, I am responsible too!!!
Respons-ability means that I could send an email 2 days before the match and ask if everything will happen as arranged.
Respons-ability means to inform the user, that if he will not reply to my mail on the next 2 days, I will play with U21.
Respons-ability means I check his squad to see if he has more than 14 U20 players.
Respons-ability means the ability to response (react) on situations.
Responsabiltiy also means that I am aware that if the other person is cheating, then this happens because in his eyes I am better and stronger. I do not need to get down to his level and start telling him how bad he is.
5.
Since I started to act in this way 130 weeks have passed. In this time I played 41 U20- or U19-games and in all of them all people kept their word and you know what? I prefer the new situation rather than the old situation when I was the poor victim.
SUMMARY:
- Please keep the intention of this topic on mind: To inform and to be informed about users who promise to play with U20 and despite this they play with U21.
- Also please keep in mind: Keep your report simple, just stay on the facts. Nothing more. Nobody asked you to put labels.
- Responsible or Victim? You choose.
Tsolas.
Its nice you give a comment.
In this situation its all clear. There wasn't any crusade and there wont be so much writing if some user which think cheating is normal start to write.
The Subject name is: Friendly U20 - cheaters, so all writing has to be about, otherwise its spam.
As in game as in real life in contemporary world its improper to remind someone to keep his word, obligation by contract or agreed terms. Trying to hide or cover the truth is a way of misconduct and behavior of very simple and low morale people.As in real life and as in game the lie is lie, nothing more nothing less. Who try to cover the lie is a liar friend or just simply a liar. Big or small cant find a difference.
(edited)
Its nice you give a comment.
In this situation its all clear. There wasn't any crusade and there wont be so much writing if some user which think cheating is normal start to write.
The Subject name is: Friendly U20 - cheaters, so all writing has to be about, otherwise its spam.
As in game as in real life in contemporary world its improper to remind someone to keep his word, obligation by contract or agreed terms. Trying to hide or cover the truth is a way of misconduct and behavior of very simple and low morale people.As in real life and as in game the lie is lie, nothing more nothing less. Who try to cover the lie is a liar friend or just simply a liar. Big or small cant find a difference.
(edited)
Dear Artista, thank you for giving me the oportunity to discuss a little more about this.
After I read your first message I noticed that I have to be carefully with him.
Even when I read his published mail ("I dont know if I have enough B players to setup U20 squad, but I will try to") I felt unsecure, because for me he declares by this statement, that he is not sure. (Have you noticed it?)
Whatever...
On the first post I wrote "Please keep your report simple, stay on the facts."
- However, it´s normal (and doctors say it is healthy) to express emotions and especially anger.
- I expect people in this topic to express their anger after broken agreements, despite of having asked to stay on the facts.
- I also expect people to be willing to ask for solutions, no matter if they have been accused or if they have accused.
(- And I do not expect explanations and clarifications to solve a problem - a problem is solved when I am aware of the target I want to reach, what kind of solution I wish.)
So, once again, for everybody in the future:
Please keep your report simple (for the readers), stay on the facts (for the readers) and dare to ask something for reparation (for your own team).
--------------
By the way, about the title: You are right. It is also my fault the way things happen here because of using a label on the title.
Yesterday when I wrote my thoughts I also make thoughts to ask from an admin to change the topic from "Friendly U20 - cheaters" to "U20: List of users who cheated".
I will do it immediately.
--------------
PS: I wrote yesterday to somebody, that I would like my friends to show such solidarity and to defend my name, even if I have make a mistake. However I would ask them to stop and I would admitt my mistake. Mikefull admitted he made a mistake. Now I think it´s time for you to step back for some days and then figure out if you could handle some things in a different way.
Finally, yes, somebody who covers a lie acts worse than the one who told it
and I don´t mean the Czechs - they told you to wait and they felt offended not by your labels, but about your phrase "You are similar". Is it the truth or is it an assumption?
After I read your first message I noticed that I have to be carefully with him.
Even when I read his published mail ("I dont know if I have enough B players to setup U20 squad, but I will try to") I felt unsecure, because for me he declares by this statement, that he is not sure. (Have you noticed it?)
Whatever...
On the first post I wrote "Please keep your report simple, stay on the facts."
- However, it´s normal (and doctors say it is healthy) to express emotions and especially anger.
- I expect people in this topic to express their anger after broken agreements, despite of having asked to stay on the facts.
- I also expect people to be willing to ask for solutions, no matter if they have been accused or if they have accused.
(- And I do not expect explanations and clarifications to solve a problem - a problem is solved when I am aware of the target I want to reach, what kind of solution I wish.)
So, once again, for everybody in the future:
Please keep your report simple (for the readers), stay on the facts (for the readers) and dare to ask something for reparation (for your own team).
--------------
By the way, about the title: You are right. It is also my fault the way things happen here because of using a label on the title.
Yesterday when I wrote my thoughts I also make thoughts to ask from an admin to change the topic from "Friendly U20 - cheaters" to "U20: List of users who cheated".
I will do it immediately.
--------------
PS: I wrote yesterday to somebody, that I would like my friends to show such solidarity and to defend my name, even if I have make a mistake. However I would ask them to stop and I would admitt my mistake. Mikefull admitted he made a mistake. Now I think it´s time for you to step back for some days and then figure out if you could handle some things in a different way.
Finally, yes, somebody who covers a lie acts worse than the one who told it
and I don´t mean the Czechs - they told you to wait and they felt offended not by your labels, but about your phrase "You are similar". Is it the truth or is it an assumption?
Dear Tsolas,
Sorry but have to reply to Your last statements:
If accept to play u20 game, I ask him before sending invitation for a game to play u20. I cant treat the situation as a mistake as he selected all his players. The Sverige u21 team which played one week before was different. Anyway mikefull admitted he had to play u20(U should notice that in his posts).
The fact is that we lose 50 points and 2 rank positions. Our community feels cheated cos this. Personally find proper what mikeful wrote about the situation but this dont change the facts i mentioned above.
That way there is no solution, only explanations (empty words) which cant change the facts.
The only thing which is proper to do is to point to the sokker community, and that way to all U21 coaches, that they have to be aware of people which cant keep their word and others which are supporters of such idea(they are much worst). That is why this subject is open.
I dont find all Czecz are cheaters (if you read my posts carefully You can notice that) , (it will be nonsense to think such think and im not racist or fascist), but some of them are cheaters and liars.
And ill point it once again that only one offended are Crna Gora community which is cheated.
(edited)
Sorry but have to reply to Your last statements:
If accept to play u20 game, I ask him before sending invitation for a game to play u20. I cant treat the situation as a mistake as he selected all his players. The Sverige u21 team which played one week before was different. Anyway mikefull admitted he had to play u20(U should notice that in his posts).
The fact is that we lose 50 points and 2 rank positions. Our community feels cheated cos this. Personally find proper what mikeful wrote about the situation but this dont change the facts i mentioned above.
That way there is no solution, only explanations (empty words) which cant change the facts.
The only thing which is proper to do is to point to the sokker community, and that way to all U21 coaches, that they have to be aware of people which cant keep their word and others which are supporters of such idea(they are much worst). That is why this subject is open.
I dont find all Czecz are cheaters (if you read my posts carefully You can notice that) , (it will be nonsense to think such think and im not racist or fascist), but some of them are cheaters and liars.
And ill point it once again that only one offended are Crna Gora community which is cheated.
(edited)
I am sorry, but I still think that there must be some serious misunderstanding on your side. Noone (including me) is happy with what has happened to you - and also mikefull regrets that. Unfortunately, mistakes do happen, and I am sorry that this mistake impacted your national team in a negative way. However it is unfortunate, it had not been done intentionally. Do not tell me, that you never forgot about anything you promised previously. Did others call you a notorious liar due to that? I doubt so. And would you like to be called as such by others? I doubt so as well. This is actually the only thing I did not like about your statement - the insults you pulled out in this case are just completely inappropriate. My primary goal was to moderate the discussion as insulting others is really not a solution.
Another thing is that you are not the only one offended. Actually, trust me, I am offended much more by your words. I have never cheated anyone and I really do not like if someone, like you, repeatedly insults me in that way. Please, stop doing so. Unlike you, I am not here to crucify anyone - and I can still forgive you if you want. If you want to continue insulting me, however, at least say that openly without hiding behind phrases such as some of them, when we all know that you mean me and Ortwin. And, in that case, provide all of us with hard facts and proofs that we have been cheating or lying.
(edited)
Another thing is that you are not the only one offended. Actually, trust me, I am offended much more by your words. I have never cheated anyone and I really do not like if someone, like you, repeatedly insults me in that way. Please, stop doing so. Unlike you, I am not here to crucify anyone - and I can still forgive you if you want. If you want to continue insulting me, however, at least say that openly without hiding behind phrases such as some of them, when we all know that you mean me and Ortwin. And, in that case, provide all of us with hard facts and proofs that we have been cheating or lying.
(edited)
Dint want to write to you but You just want me to do so...
Just to be more precise, as you pretend not to understand obvious things, just want to clarify this situation for all people which read our posts, as i see you want to present yourself as a victim.
1. If You put players on the field age 21 and you put 6 of them, its not a mistake. Mistake could be if team roster was same as team roster week before our game. You know that very well as all of us know that very well but still you call that a mistake. Its unbelievable that someone can call it a mistake.
2. As You started to defend someone negative act which is not proper to defend, You cant expect that I will accept such behaviour as normal and stay silent. My reaction on that is fully proper.
3. Dont feel joy writing this at all. Would be much more happy if noone was cheating me.
I finish with writing about this. Hope noone will be cheated in future.
(edited)
Just to be more precise, as you pretend not to understand obvious things, just want to clarify this situation for all people which read our posts, as i see you want to present yourself as a victim.
1. If You put players on the field age 21 and you put 6 of them, its not a mistake. Mistake could be if team roster was same as team roster week before our game. You know that very well as all of us know that very well but still you call that a mistake. Its unbelievable that someone can call it a mistake.
2. As You started to defend someone negative act which is not proper to defend, You cant expect that I will accept such behaviour as normal and stay silent. My reaction on that is fully proper.
3. Dont feel joy writing this at all. Would be much more happy if noone was cheating me.
I finish with writing about this. Hope noone will be cheated in future.
(edited)
Hello people! Has anybody fun with this situation?
Maybe some people find a lot of fun reading this, in the future.
and you know what? These people could be Artista, Mikefull, Ostulc, Ortwin and me, together, somewhere discussing about our sokker experiences and laughing about how we felt in the past.
But for now, I believe it, none of us is happy. So, for now, please accept my request to stop the "I-am-right-you-wrong"-game, or continue it on skmail.
------------------------------------
End of chapter 2
------------------------------------
On the next CHAPTER readers wish to read that Czech Rep. and Montenegro played a friendly, U20vs.U21 and Montenegro won 0-2 and took the 50 ranking points back.
After this they realised, that the 50 points were not the core of the problem.
The core of the problem become obvious on CHAPTER 4.
Finally on CHAPTER 5, they met, they laughed and at the end Polska won again the U21-WC... Goodnight!
Maybe some people find a lot of fun reading this, in the future.
and you know what? These people could be Artista, Mikefull, Ostulc, Ortwin and me, together, somewhere discussing about our sokker experiences and laughing about how we felt in the past.
But for now, I believe it, none of us is happy. So, for now, please accept my request to stop the "I-am-right-you-wrong"-game, or continue it on skmail.
------------------------------------
End of chapter 2
------------------------------------
On the next CHAPTER readers wish to read that Czech Rep. and Montenegro played a friendly, U20vs.U21 and Montenegro won 0-2 and took the 50 ranking points back.
After this they realised, that the 50 points were not the core of the problem.
The core of the problem become obvious on CHAPTER 4.
Finally on CHAPTER 5, they met, they laughed and at the end Polska won again the U21-WC... Goodnight!
1. If You put players on the field age 21 and you put 6 of them, its not a mistake. Mistake could be if team roster was same as team roster week before our game. You know that very well as all of us know that very well but still you call that a mistake. In previous post you can find my definition for such behaviour.
Mikefull told you that he forgot about the U20 setting and he was playing a B-team. To support this claim, I can show you one post from Swedish forum:
2017-06-16 09:41:41
mikefull komu Bone_Fletcher
So today we have another friendly, so I have nominated players who dont play so much to show us their skills. We play against one of top team on sokker, so we can test our chances for 2nd part of qualification. Hope we will make well and I expect some of players will surprise me :)
This message, which was posted long time before the match was played, clearly shows that mikefull didn't want to cheat you anyhow. He has just forgotten about the U20 and set B-team players into play. Apart of that, Swedish B-team and Swedish U20 team are of approximately same strength. If you lost against the B-team, there is a good chance that you would have lost against the U20 team as well.
I just want to repeat myself, I do not say this is right. But it has happened and it was not intentional, mikefull apologized. And this is actually all that can be done in this situation. It was indeed irresponsible from mikefull's side - and I know he feels ashamed for that reason (as I would have in his situation). My point just is, that we should refrain of calling such stuff as cheating and I will not think of mikefull as an eternal notorious liar. Humans make mistakes, live with that. Am I a cheater and a liar for this reason? Please, I want to hear a clear yes/no answer. But I still hope that you are smart enough to see your mistake.
Mikefull told you that he forgot about the U20 setting and he was playing a B-team. To support this claim, I can show you one post from Swedish forum:
2017-06-16 09:41:41
mikefull komu Bone_Fletcher
So today we have another friendly, so I have nominated players who dont play so much to show us their skills. We play against one of top team on sokker, so we can test our chances for 2nd part of qualification. Hope we will make well and I expect some of players will surprise me :)
This message, which was posted long time before the match was played, clearly shows that mikefull didn't want to cheat you anyhow. He has just forgotten about the U20 and set B-team players into play. Apart of that, Swedish B-team and Swedish U20 team are of approximately same strength. If you lost against the B-team, there is a good chance that you would have lost against the U20 team as well.
I just want to repeat myself, I do not say this is right. But it has happened and it was not intentional, mikefull apologized. And this is actually all that can be done in this situation. It was indeed irresponsible from mikefull's side - and I know he feels ashamed for that reason (as I would have in his situation). My point just is, that we should refrain of calling such stuff as cheating and I will not think of mikefull as an eternal notorious liar. Humans make mistakes, live with that. Am I a cheater and a liar for this reason? Please, I want to hear a clear yes/no answer. But I still hope that you are smart enough to see your mistake.
Finally on CHAPTER 5, they met, they laughed and at the end Polska won again the U21-WC... Goodnight!
100% correct! hehehehehe... >:p
100% correct! hehehehehe... >:p