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Subject: Intelligent Political Discussion Thread
I gave a link to that song allready , but it's a great one :)
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The question of who is right is the most important in any court .
We have the truth in our side , other have more people and propaganda
We have the truth in our side , other have more people and propaganda
Regarding the 'P' or 'F' in the name of Palestine... this has nothing to do with any claim ro right of anyone to the land or area. I don't think anyone is using this argument seriously.
The facts that the Arabs do not pronounce the letter P is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
The facts that the Arabs do not pronounce the letter P is totally irrelevant to the discussion.
Then why did the other Israeli guy said it seriously? And you don't have to repeat me, I already said it is irrelevant.
Regarding the Philistines chased out etc...
The bible references if you take them as the are (and I for one do NOT!) mentions the Philistines whom Samson fought.
The historical evidence ementions a sea-faring people who arrived from Pheonicia and settles ina few towns along the coast. They have gradually disappeared or inremingled into other cultures in the area.
They have no desendants today and very little distinct archeological records. The definitely have nothing in common with any people living around our area today.
The bible references if you take them as the are (and I for one do NOT!) mentions the Philistines whom Samson fought.
The historical evidence ementions a sea-faring people who arrived from Pheonicia and settles ina few towns along the coast. They have gradually disappeared or inremingled into other cultures in the area.
They have no desendants today and very little distinct archeological records. The definitely have nothing in common with any people living around our area today.
I can not account for anyone's opinion, just like I don't hold you responsible for the other Belgian views. :)
You have nothing in common with the people around your area ;-)
That's why I asked it to the other Israeli guy, and not you.
It's a part from the argument that refer to the lies about the Palestinien nation .
Mark Twain wrote in his notes about the area between the Jordan river and the sea when he was traveling here and who lived here in those day , you can find it easily
Erez - It has all to do with the truth
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Mark Twain wrote in his notes about the area between the Jordan river and the sea when he was traveling here and who lived here in those day , you can find it easily
Erez - It has all to do with the truth
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"The word Zionist comes from the word Zion, which is just another name for the Land of Israel. The name it held before the Romans called this province Palestine after an extinct tribe of Pheonician sailors, which settled on the coast around of area of modern day Ashdod (the port city where the Marmara boat was brought to)."
"Thus the meaning of the word Zionist - as unfortunate as it might be for your argumentation - does not mean Nazism, or Appartheid, or any other negative or derogatory usage you might want to give it.
"
just as the word 'nazi' consist of the word 'socialist'. Both don't mean what someone would want them to mean.
But I don't think it is wise to hide behind semantics in these discussions. Zionists want israel for the israeli's. Some interpret this a bit too literal. And all I am saying is that the word zionist has pretty much the same implication it as nazi. As long as you don't make clear that there is a clear distinction(*) between that group and yourself, and you don't achieve this by giving yourself the same name, people around the world won't see the difference.
You don't have to explain yourself to yourself, as I see it, but to the rest of the world. And you won't achieve this, no matter how much you WANT this, by using a totally orthogonal set of nomers to the rest of the world.
(*) and now we're talking about making a distinction, you have to do this by taking actions, not by words. To examplify this: you say israel only wants peace (but we see 9 civilian deaths on a legal humanitarian flotilla, no matter how you call it, that's how the rest of the world sees it, don't sulk about it)... no matter how much you say israel wants peace (despite this), I am pretty sure hamas says the same thing. They want peace, with the jews out of the way.
And I am rather sure, seeing from how israeli politicians twist their words (in interviews they've given or the Ahmadinijad styled speech Netanyahu gave two days ago), that many of them think about it this same way: israel wants peace, but only on their terms. And if the arabs don't accept these, it is going to be war, but on their responsibility. And I am sorry, but this passive agressive stance is as far from peace as how the rest of the world understands it.
"Thus the meaning of the word Zionist - as unfortunate as it might be for your argumentation - does not mean Nazism, or Appartheid, or any other negative or derogatory usage you might want to give it.
"
just as the word 'nazi' consist of the word 'socialist'. Both don't mean what someone would want them to mean.
But I don't think it is wise to hide behind semantics in these discussions. Zionists want israel for the israeli's. Some interpret this a bit too literal. And all I am saying is that the word zionist has pretty much the same implication it as nazi. As long as you don't make clear that there is a clear distinction(*) between that group and yourself, and you don't achieve this by giving yourself the same name, people around the world won't see the difference.
You don't have to explain yourself to yourself, as I see it, but to the rest of the world. And you won't achieve this, no matter how much you WANT this, by using a totally orthogonal set of nomers to the rest of the world.
(*) and now we're talking about making a distinction, you have to do this by taking actions, not by words. To examplify this: you say israel only wants peace (but we see 9 civilian deaths on a legal humanitarian flotilla, no matter how you call it, that's how the rest of the world sees it, don't sulk about it)... no matter how much you say israel wants peace (despite this), I am pretty sure hamas says the same thing. They want peace, with the jews out of the way.
And I am rather sure, seeing from how israeli politicians twist their words (in interviews they've given or the Ahmadinijad styled speech Netanyahu gave two days ago), that many of them think about it this same way: israel wants peace, but only on their terms. And if the arabs don't accept these, it is going to be war, but on their responsibility. And I am sorry, but this passive agressive stance is as far from peace as how the rest of the world understands it.
Then Mark Twain was wrong about that P/F thing. And if you were critical for both sides, you would have looked for other information.
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Regarding the Partition plan...
Here a tiny bit of background;
Actually, it's all the British and French' fault. When Britain and France colonised the Mid-East, North Africa and other areas before and mainly after WWI the divided the areas taken between them by drawing straight lines with a ruler on the map. If you look at North Africa today or the borders between Iraq, Iran, Saudi-Arabia and other places, you'll see those hunderds of miles long lines made artificially b the French and the British. When doing so, they split up nations, peoples and identities creating an endless amount of conflict and strife where non existed before.
The Arab nations mostl suffered from this as prior to that, the had a completely different division of families, tribes, nations and associations be them of the great Arab nation, the Pharhoe decendant Egptians, the Turks of the Ottoman Empire or the tribes of Yemen. Suddenly they had borders and national identities and mostly barriers where they used to roam with the herds.
The wars of Iarq-Iran, Egypt and its own nieghbours, tribal wars in Yemen of today, etc... all the result of this.
The area of where toda stand Israel and Jordan were both under British control. The British plan of 1921 called to give this entire area to the Jews, way and before WWII and its horrific results. After the local Arabs resented this, Britian divided the decision by half and used the jordan River as a separation mark between its Eastern Bank - the Country of Jordan for the local Arabs and the Western Bank - the country of Israel for the Jews. The Arabs resented that too.
Only after WWII and the growing need to actually start the now 3 decades old plan to build Israel the map was divided again (what is the partition plan) to further reduce the land for the Jews out of the entire area. By now, the offered part was less than a tenth of the original plan. The Jews accepting all and every plan all along agreed and the Arabs refused yet again. As soon as the British left Israel and the State of Israel was born the Arabs launched a war against Israel (1948) where they had their arses kick for the first time of many. There were 600,000 Jews armed with 1 gun for each ten guys, and these too were old Czech leftovers from WWII facing the organised armies of tanks and planes of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and forces from Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Syria.
The Jews beat them back and coonnected the three separate land plots awarded to the Jews by the Partition plan.
This is the begining of the wars and land moves which continued later. We can discuss this later.
However and an important point at this stage is; that the land offered to the Jews by the British and UN at the different stages was not a new land to the Jews. Jews have lived in Israel always and never truly went away. It is true that the Roman exiled most of the Jews - as was their costume with all rebellios nations - to every corner of the Roman empire, but in four major centre in Israel, Jews always lived. During these last 2000 years there was never a nation called Philistines, in any spelling or form whatsoever. Other than the Jews who lived here for centuries, all other peoples and nations have onl passed through, be it with nomadic herds or settling for a few generations alongside the Jews or whomever controlled the land. The crusaders were here, Salah-A-Din was here, the Ottoman Empire, the British, etc. Jews were the only constant feature in these lands even if in small numbers. Make whatever claim for the land from it, you want.
Only after Israel and Jordan were born, local Arabs found out that the Jordanians don't want them, the Jews finally got international recognition for their part and they couldn't move freely anymore. This was the birth of the Palestinian nation, differing from the Jordanians or Syrians or Egyptians. Other than that, the Palestinians have no history, no distinct culture and mostly no identity as a separate nation. Now after years in Arab refugee camps in many Arab countries who loath them, after trying endless times to win the beautiful land we have built here from us, the have a history and shared goals and vision.
This regarding the maps, partition plan or existence as nations here.
Here a tiny bit of background;
Actually, it's all the British and French' fault. When Britain and France colonised the Mid-East, North Africa and other areas before and mainly after WWI the divided the areas taken between them by drawing straight lines with a ruler on the map. If you look at North Africa today or the borders between Iraq, Iran, Saudi-Arabia and other places, you'll see those hunderds of miles long lines made artificially b the French and the British. When doing so, they split up nations, peoples and identities creating an endless amount of conflict and strife where non existed before.
The Arab nations mostl suffered from this as prior to that, the had a completely different division of families, tribes, nations and associations be them of the great Arab nation, the Pharhoe decendant Egptians, the Turks of the Ottoman Empire or the tribes of Yemen. Suddenly they had borders and national identities and mostly barriers where they used to roam with the herds.
The wars of Iarq-Iran, Egypt and its own nieghbours, tribal wars in Yemen of today, etc... all the result of this.
The area of where toda stand Israel and Jordan were both under British control. The British plan of 1921 called to give this entire area to the Jews, way and before WWII and its horrific results. After the local Arabs resented this, Britian divided the decision by half and used the jordan River as a separation mark between its Eastern Bank - the Country of Jordan for the local Arabs and the Western Bank - the country of Israel for the Jews. The Arabs resented that too.
Only after WWII and the growing need to actually start the now 3 decades old plan to build Israel the map was divided again (what is the partition plan) to further reduce the land for the Jews out of the entire area. By now, the offered part was less than a tenth of the original plan. The Jews accepting all and every plan all along agreed and the Arabs refused yet again. As soon as the British left Israel and the State of Israel was born the Arabs launched a war against Israel (1948) where they had their arses kick for the first time of many. There were 600,000 Jews armed with 1 gun for each ten guys, and these too were old Czech leftovers from WWII facing the organised armies of tanks and planes of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and forces from Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Syria.
The Jews beat them back and coonnected the three separate land plots awarded to the Jews by the Partition plan.
This is the begining of the wars and land moves which continued later. We can discuss this later.
However and an important point at this stage is; that the land offered to the Jews by the British and UN at the different stages was not a new land to the Jews. Jews have lived in Israel always and never truly went away. It is true that the Roman exiled most of the Jews - as was their costume with all rebellios nations - to every corner of the Roman empire, but in four major centre in Israel, Jews always lived. During these last 2000 years there was never a nation called Philistines, in any spelling or form whatsoever. Other than the Jews who lived here for centuries, all other peoples and nations have onl passed through, be it with nomadic herds or settling for a few generations alongside the Jews or whomever controlled the land. The crusaders were here, Salah-A-Din was here, the Ottoman Empire, the British, etc. Jews were the only constant feature in these lands even if in small numbers. Make whatever claim for the land from it, you want.
Only after Israel and Jordan were born, local Arabs found out that the Jordanians don't want them, the Jews finally got international recognition for their part and they couldn't move freely anymore. This was the birth of the Palestinian nation, differing from the Jordanians or Syrians or Egyptians. Other than that, the Palestinians have no history, no distinct culture and mostly no identity as a separate nation. Now after years in Arab refugee camps in many Arab countries who loath them, after trying endless times to win the beautiful land we have built here from us, the have a history and shared goals and vision.
This regarding the maps, partition plan or existence as nations here.
Mark Twain didnt wrote about P or F but about who were living between the Jordan river ans the sea .
You want to solve the problem,
Start with education the kids,
check out their kids learning books and see what they explain them about Israel
I already told you what I will be willing to give for TRUE REAL PEACE (i.e like in Belgium, no alerts and no suicide human bombs), and if you will be able to a sure that,it will be much easier.
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Start with education the kids,
check out their kids learning books and see what they explain them about Israel
I already told you what I will be willing to give for TRUE REAL PEACE (i.e like in Belgium, no alerts and no suicide human bombs), and if you will be able to a sure that,it will be much easier.
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