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Subject: R.I.P. Nelson Mandela: 1918-2013
I do believe that's the big picture.
Come on. You can't be serious? Mandela is a saint according to almost all the media and the people take that over without any further questions asked. And if one is critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
Come on. You can't be serious? Mandela is a saint according to almost all the media and the people take that over without any further questions asked. And if one is critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
And if one is critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
I beg your pardon... Maybe you should have said : And if one is only critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
Do you recognize some good parts on Mandela's life ? No... So, don't be surprised...
I beg your pardon... Maybe you should have said : And if one is only critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
Do you recognize some good parts on Mandela's life ? No... So, don't be surprised...
[...]Allies victory = good.
...yes. But it's not the same as saying that every resistance movement was good, or that everything Mandela did was good.
And some people actually live in such world, covered in a bubble of ignorance.
I personally don't think that talking about bad aspects of good movements in any way depreciates the moral value of such movement.
Everything is more or less grey and we should acknowledge that as soon as possible. Praise what should be praised, condemn what should be condemned.
For example, I believe that during WW II there were both good people on the Germand side and bad people on the Polish side. It's quite obvious.
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...yes. But it's not the same as saying that every resistance movement was good, or that everything Mandela did was good.
And some people actually live in such world, covered in a bubble of ignorance.
I personally don't think that talking about bad aspects of good movements in any way depreciates the moral value of such movement.
Everything is more or less grey and we should acknowledge that as soon as possible. Praise what should be praised, condemn what should be condemned.
For example, I believe that during WW II there were both good people on the Germand side and bad people on the Polish side. It's quite obvious.
(edited)
Maybe you should have said : And if one is only critical on Mandela, arguments like "you liked apartheid" are never far away.
Well, two remarks on that:
1. Even if that was the case, would that argument be valid? No.
2. Let me quote myself from my first comment in this topic just to show you that it is untrue to say I am only critical on Mandela.
(He did great things of course, but such an old person dying is just 'normal'. I also hate the one-sided view on him, like he's some sort of god.)
See? I started with saying he did great things.
Well, two remarks on that:
1. Even if that was the case, would that argument be valid? No.
2. Let me quote myself from my first comment in this topic just to show you that it is untrue to say I am only critical on Mandela.
(He did great things of course, but such an old person dying is just 'normal'. I also hate the one-sided view on him, like he's some sort of god.)
See? I started with saying he did great things.
To be honest, I don't know much about Mandela's struggle. After the apartheid ended, the blacks got their rigths, whites didn't become secondary citizens, that's a good thing, and as I know Mandela had great part in it. We can consider him bad guy, but then Churchill and Roosevelt were that too. And there's a big difference between these bad guys, and the ones like Botha.
I don't think there are too many leaders in history whose hand didn't get dirty in the process, when they had to fight for a righteous cause. Maybe Gandhi is an exception, but probably we could find some darker facts about him too, if we really want.
And Thatcher did support the apartheid regime, so considering her a greater humanist then Mandela would be correct only if we would consider only white people humans.
I don't think there are too many leaders in history whose hand didn't get dirty in the process, when they had to fight for a righteous cause. Maybe Gandhi is an exception, but probably we could find some darker facts about him too, if we really want.
And Thatcher did support the apartheid regime, so considering her a greater humanist then Mandela would be correct only if we would consider only white people humans.
After the apartheid ended, the blacks got their rigths, whites didn't become secondary citizens, that's a good thing, and as I know Mandela had great part in it.
Exactly. That was a great thing to do, to not take revenge.
We can consider him bad guy, but then Churchill and Roosevelt were that too. And there's a big difference between these bad guys, and the ones like Botha.
But then again, Botha is not all bad either. It's not as simple as that. Botha offered Mandela his freedom if he rejected violence. And the fear of the Afrikaners that the blacks would take revenge was understandable (see the farm attacks on Afrikaners even today, 'plaasmoorde').
(And I'm not going to defend Botha either, because he did a lot of bad things too.)
I don't think there are too many leaders in history whose hand didn't get dirty in the process, when they had to fight for a righteous cause.
My point exactly. Defend the good things regardless of who did it, disapprove the bad things regardless of who did it.
And Thatcher did support the apartheid regime, so considering her a greater humanist then Mandela would be correct only if we would consider only white people humans.
That would be correct if we would only consider the support or disapproval of the apartheid regime as a grade of humanism. But let's not talk about Thatcher (whose economic policies I approve, policies that in my view saved the British state from bankruptcy). By the way, Thatcher urged Botha to release Mandela in a letter in 1985.
Exactly. That was a great thing to do, to not take revenge.
We can consider him bad guy, but then Churchill and Roosevelt were that too. And there's a big difference between these bad guys, and the ones like Botha.
But then again, Botha is not all bad either. It's not as simple as that. Botha offered Mandela his freedom if he rejected violence. And the fear of the Afrikaners that the blacks would take revenge was understandable (see the farm attacks on Afrikaners even today, 'plaasmoorde').
(And I'm not going to defend Botha either, because he did a lot of bad things too.)
I don't think there are too many leaders in history whose hand didn't get dirty in the process, when they had to fight for a righteous cause.
My point exactly. Defend the good things regardless of who did it, disapprove the bad things regardless of who did it.
And Thatcher did support the apartheid regime, so considering her a greater humanist then Mandela would be correct only if we would consider only white people humans.
That would be correct if we would only consider the support or disapproval of the apartheid regime as a grade of humanism. But let's not talk about Thatcher (whose economic policies I approve, policies that in my view saved the British state from bankruptcy). By the way, Thatcher urged Botha to release Mandela in a letter in 1985.
I must apologize... You really wrote Mandela did great things. I forgot it. (But you didn't say which ones...^^)
Nevertheless, I just reacted because you were very (maybe too much?) critical on Mandela and I thought someone who forgave those who put him in jail for 27 years didn't deserve such treatment...
I saw. It's ok for me...
(edited)
Nevertheless, I just reacted because you were very (maybe too much?) critical on Mandela and I thought someone who forgave those who put him in jail for 27 years didn't deserve such treatment...
I saw. It's ok for me...
(edited)
I think nearly everybody has great respect for Mandela even though he was just a human. If some people want to call him a terrorist, do what Mandela would have done... smile and ignore them.
in romania we have a word , for dead people only good things...
ignore them
Like you do with historical facts?
Like you do with historical facts?
maybe what makes mandela a man that deserves to be remembered is not that he taked power turning off apartheid politics..
maybe the real great thing he did was after it:
national reconciliation
Truth and Reconciliation Commission
maybe the real great thing he did was after it:
national reconciliation
Truth and Reconciliation Commission