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Subject: New match engine discussion
I think team discipline, teamwork, weather etc. can be treated as noise and have small effects. (Form is more tricky though)
I do get an impression that when two teams having similar strength encounter, their relative performance seems to be oscillatory. For example, team A is better at min 0-10, then team B at min 10-25 then team A at min 25-38 etc.
I hypothesize that the ME will lead to the dynamics being self-organized into such behavior (Just an educated guess with no proof whatsoever).
Then maybe some choices of tactic will amplify this effect such that once a team got the upper hand due to randomness, it is difficult for that team to lose the upper hand due to the self-organized dynamics. That would lead to results with bimodal distribution explaning the 2-5, 7-1 stuff.
I may be completely wrong. Actually it's a something very complicated. Interested plus users may arrange many arcade games with same set-up to let us get a better idea.
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I do get an impression that when two teams having similar strength encounter, their relative performance seems to be oscillatory. For example, team A is better at min 0-10, then team B at min 10-25 then team A at min 25-38 etc.
I hypothesize that the ME will lead to the dynamics being self-organized into such behavior (Just an educated guess with no proof whatsoever).
Then maybe some choices of tactic will amplify this effect such that once a team got the upper hand due to randomness, it is difficult for that team to lose the upper hand due to the self-organized dynamics. That would lead to results with bimodal distribution explaning the 2-5, 7-1 stuff.
I may be completely wrong. Actually it's a something very complicated. Interested plus users may arrange many arcade games with same set-up to let us get a better idea.
(edited)
I am not sure if I am properly guessing, but You are probably using Chrome and see a mess while editing tactic.
Check this for solution to mentioned problem or ignore my post if You aren't talking about that problem.
Check this for solution to mentioned problem or ignore my post if You aren't talking about that problem.
Could someone give me a reasonable explanation for the outcome of this match:
CabaretVoltaire - SCSA Juventude F.C. 1:0
That's the match that really got on my nerves, and is even a youth league match; the "best" part of it is the double save of the opponent's goalkeeper on my attacker, wich reminds me the best Buffon, who scores an "astounding" 8 at the end (would have he scored 40 or higher, i wouldn't even be mad);
it's clear that the random is killing this game, when the majority of the matches outcome are decided this way, and no one (who should) seems to really care;
it's simply not possible (or at least in a consistent way, instead of these frauds) to lose in an "honorable" way? I've stand this for way too long, now i'm exausthed; i don't remember this game being such random plagued about few years ago, now i see this kind of matches way too often to consider them "acceptable" anymore.
CabaretVoltaire - SCSA Juventude F.C. 1:0
That's the match that really got on my nerves, and is even a youth league match; the "best" part of it is the double save of the opponent's goalkeeper on my attacker, wich reminds me the best Buffon, who scores an "astounding" 8 at the end (would have he scored 40 or higher, i wouldn't even be mad);
it's clear that the random is killing this game, when the majority of the matches outcome are decided this way, and no one (who should) seems to really care;
it's simply not possible (or at least in a consistent way, instead of these frauds) to lose in an "honorable" way? I've stand this for way too long, now i'm exausthed; i don't remember this game being such random plagued about few years ago, now i see this kind of matches way too often to consider them "acceptable" anymore.
You complain about random in this game? With these teams??!!! Are you kidding?
I ´ve got you! You are kidding... LOL
I ´ve got you! You are kidding... LOL
lol :P
Junior match, Serie D
average mark 24.1 vs 25.1
Read back the lasts posta about why the ME of Sokker isn't just random (again a 'discussion' about such a comment is completely useless), next you should think about what you have posted; a complain about a junior match result, not even knowing the skills of these low skilled players often at wrong positions !! :O And last but not least, 17 shots means nothing specially not with junior matches (and what about shots from distance, low striker skills, tactic, etc? Useless scoreboard journalism we call this in the Netherlands)
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Junior match, Serie D
average mark 24.1 vs 25.1
Read back the lasts posta about why the ME of Sokker isn't just random (again a 'discussion' about such a comment is completely useless), next you should think about what you have posted; a complain about a junior match result, not even knowing the skills of these low skilled players often at wrong positions !! :O And last but not least, 17 shots means nothing specially not with junior matches (and what about shots from distance, low striker skills, tactic, etc? Useless scoreboard journalism we call this in the Netherlands)
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I agree with you. We deserve a better engine than that...
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To Tsolias and Charles Hill (i have read previous posts, i'm stiil not completely satisfied)
You may be right, but this is not the first match with such an outcome, and not only on junior fixtures; and, unfortunately, i don't think it will be the last too; of course i agree it's not just random, but since quite some time i have the distinct feel that random is influencing matches in an unacceptable way;
you would be annoyed too if your striker with 9 in attack (that's the skill of my striker that played that match i complained about, exited from junior school today) gets a double save in succession, from near distance, Buffon style, from your opponent's goalkeeper wich scores 8 (surely can't have more than 2, maybe 3 in keeping), along with other several saves? What would you call that, if not unfair luck or random, expecially when it happens quite often in other matches too?
That without complaining about other things too, like the players who constantly and absurdly slow down or get the ball out for the trow when sprinting, even with top technique, or penalty shoot outs who are completely anti-climatic and irrealistic, given how penalties work (80/90% chance of getting it saved or being missed)...
If you like it that way, good for you, but don't jump at other people necks if they point out the clear faults of this game; and if you do, try at least to give a good argument who doesn't end up, for example, in "there are several cases from real football, so you just have to accept it, like it or not!" or "try to argument better, there is no evidence of what you are impliying!" when instead there is plenty, like i described before; about me, i finally queue up with the people who are extremely dissatisfied with this match engine and would like to see some good improvements on that aspect.
You may be right, but this is not the first match with such an outcome, and not only on junior fixtures; and, unfortunately, i don't think it will be the last too; of course i agree it's not just random, but since quite some time i have the distinct feel that random is influencing matches in an unacceptable way;
you would be annoyed too if your striker with 9 in attack (that's the skill of my striker that played that match i complained about, exited from junior school today) gets a double save in succession, from near distance, Buffon style, from your opponent's goalkeeper wich scores 8 (surely can't have more than 2, maybe 3 in keeping), along with other several saves? What would you call that, if not unfair luck or random, expecially when it happens quite often in other matches too?
That without complaining about other things too, like the players who constantly and absurdly slow down or get the ball out for the trow when sprinting, even with top technique, or penalty shoot outs who are completely anti-climatic and irrealistic, given how penalties work (80/90% chance of getting it saved or being missed)...
If you like it that way, good for you, but don't jump at other people necks if they point out the clear faults of this game; and if you do, try at least to give a good argument who doesn't end up, for example, in "there are several cases from real football, so you just have to accept it, like it or not!" or "try to argument better, there is no evidence of what you are impliying!" when instead there is plenty, like i described before; about me, i finally queue up with the people who are extremely dissatisfied with this match engine and would like to see some good improvements on that aspect.
this is not the first match with such an outcome,
No indeed, and it won't be the last one. But when only a few % are surprising results, it's not a problem at all. The moment the strongest teams ALWAYS win, then we have a problem and a damn boring game.
you would be annoyed too if your striker with 9 in attack
Everyone who plays this game for a couple of years will know this feeling, it's part of Sokker. But on the other hand, 99% of the matches when I have 4 or 5 times as many shots on goal as my opponent I also win the match just as I would expect.
but don't jump at other people necks if they point out the clear faults of this game;
Again, there is no fault when you look at results. You can like or dislike the ME because of results, that's fine because that's a matter of taste. But with the results nothing is wrong. And that's why I comment your post when you started to write about random and now also use the word wrong.
try at least to give a good argument who doesn't end up
Read back the posts of all pages, you can find many arguments. But it's really boring to keep repeating yourself over and over again because this topic keeps open for people complaining about the same things over and over again, even when it makes no sense.
That without complaining about other things too, like the players who constantly and absurdly slow down or get the ball out for the trow when sprinting, even with top technique, or penalty shoot outs who are completely anti-climatic and irrealistic, given how penalties work (80/90% chance of getting it saved or being missed)...
You wrote about the result of a junior match, this is something completely different and a lot of different points.
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No indeed, and it won't be the last one. But when only a few % are surprising results, it's not a problem at all. The moment the strongest teams ALWAYS win, then we have a problem and a damn boring game.
you would be annoyed too if your striker with 9 in attack
Everyone who plays this game for a couple of years will know this feeling, it's part of Sokker. But on the other hand, 99% of the matches when I have 4 or 5 times as many shots on goal as my opponent I also win the match just as I would expect.
but don't jump at other people necks if they point out the clear faults of this game;
Again, there is no fault when you look at results. You can like or dislike the ME because of results, that's fine because that's a matter of taste. But with the results nothing is wrong. And that's why I comment your post when you started to write about random and now also use the word wrong.
try at least to give a good argument who doesn't end up
Read back the posts of all pages, you can find many arguments. But it's really boring to keep repeating yourself over and over again because this topic keeps open for people complaining about the same things over and over again, even when it makes no sense.
That without complaining about other things too, like the players who constantly and absurdly slow down or get the ball out for the trow when sprinting, even with top technique, or penalty shoot outs who are completely anti-climatic and irrealistic, given how penalties work (80/90% chance of getting it saved or being missed)...
You wrote about the result of a junior match, this is something completely different and a lot of different points.
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What i can say to you:
1- Post what you think about this game because the forum is for people to say what they think. But don't keep posting with the same people. Some of them are not here to discuss different opinions and to show different points. But to impose an opinion to those who think different.
2- The simple amount of random in a match, not specific to sokker ME, is completely subjective. For some people, matches closer to 50% - 50% games are very exiting, for others is a boring random result. With the same correlation, actual amount of random in sokker ME might be too little for some people or too much for others.
3- Most of the time, the explanation to those that doens't share this opinion, and would like a different ME, is that they don't know how it works. But if fact they simple don't like it too much, but complain because they like many other things in this game besides ME and want to keep playing it.
4- In real life soccer there is indeed an amount of random, but is much less than people think. Because results are highly correlated to a good number of facts that people doesn't know. Some of them, those who played soccer, knows and can see them analising matches. But some of them are not explicit to public and only those inside knows the information.
5- This is my match I complained before, http://sokker.org/comment/matchID/27333739. I don't have sokker numbers to compare but with milions of real life soccer matches every day around the world is extremely difficult to see one like this (15-0 shots and 0x1 result).
6- It should be easy to realise that many people might like this ME, but a lot of us will not.
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1- Post what you think about this game because the forum is for people to say what they think. But don't keep posting with the same people. Some of them are not here to discuss different opinions and to show different points. But to impose an opinion to those who think different.
2- The simple amount of random in a match, not specific to sokker ME, is completely subjective. For some people, matches closer to 50% - 50% games are very exiting, for others is a boring random result. With the same correlation, actual amount of random in sokker ME might be too little for some people or too much for others.
3- Most of the time, the explanation to those that doens't share this opinion, and would like a different ME, is that they don't know how it works. But if fact they simple don't like it too much, but complain because they like many other things in this game besides ME and want to keep playing it.
4- In real life soccer there is indeed an amount of random, but is much less than people think. Because results are highly correlated to a good number of facts that people doesn't know. Some of them, those who played soccer, knows and can see them analising matches. But some of them are not explicit to public and only those inside knows the information.
5- This is my match I complained before, http://sokker.org/comment/matchID/27333739. I don't have sokker numbers to compare but with milions of real life soccer matches every day around the world is extremely difficult to see one like this (15-0 shots and 0x1 result).
6- It should be easy to realise that many people might like this ME, but a lot of us will not.
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I thought for an instance you were kidding. My mistake...
I have also been in such situations like you. I have lost games against weaker opponents. I have lost games I played on the half of the opponent and he scored and won the game by one single chance. It hurts and I know how you feel. I have feeled the same motion of injustice and unfairness; I have feeled helpless. So, you are not alone...
I have just shared with you my past point of view. I think it is very close to yours in the present.
Now I will share with you my present point of view.
The game has much more factors than I thought. Especially in tactics there can be done much more things. When my team looses a game, then I have the biggest chance to see what I can do different in the future. The responsibility (= response + ability) is mine, not the ME´s.
Finally it´s a game and I enjoy it, even when my team looses by my own faults. Amen!
PS: Of course I enjoy it more when I win.
PS²: If you have a pet, a girlfriend or a child and you love them, you accept them as they are; you don´t try to change them, you don´t say they are fault.
You don´t tell your pet is walking wrong; this is his way -
you don´t tell your girlfriend she laughs wrong; you love her because of her unique way of laughing -
you don´t get mad by the voice of your child; this is his voice -
you accept them all as they are.
How about doing the same with the game?
I have also been in such situations like you. I have lost games against weaker opponents. I have lost games I played on the half of the opponent and he scored and won the game by one single chance. It hurts and I know how you feel. I have feeled the same motion of injustice and unfairness; I have feeled helpless. So, you are not alone...
I have just shared with you my past point of view. I think it is very close to yours in the present.
Now I will share with you my present point of view.
The game has much more factors than I thought. Especially in tactics there can be done much more things. When my team looses a game, then I have the biggest chance to see what I can do different in the future. The responsibility (= response + ability) is mine, not the ME´s.
Finally it´s a game and I enjoy it, even when my team looses by my own faults. Amen!
PS: Of course I enjoy it more when I win.
PS²: If you have a pet, a girlfriend or a child and you love them, you accept them as they are; you don´t try to change them, you don´t say they are fault.
You don´t tell your pet is walking wrong; this is his way -
you don´t tell your girlfriend she laughs wrong; you love her because of her unique way of laughing -
you don´t get mad by the voice of your child; this is his voice -
you accept them all as they are.
How about doing the same with the game?
But to impose an opinion
Yep, like a comment 'this is why most managers leave'. You recognize it? Complete nonsense and based on nothing if you post it like this. Managers who are around for a long time know what the problems are, it's not just 1 problem.
With the same correlation, actual amount of random in sokker ME might be too little for some people or too much for others.
Luckily almost all matches that managers expected to win, they win. So it only becomes a problem when a manager loses a match he expected to win, 1 in every 20 matches or even less? I don't know the exact data, but it won't be a lot more as this number.
Most of the time, the explanation to those that doens't share this opinion, and would like a different ME, is that they don't know how it works.
Don't change words and don't mix knowledge and taste. When someone starts to talk about random results when he means surprising results and keeps saying all is random and wrong, then a manager clearly doesn't know how it works. When someone says he doesn't like the ME because of whatever reason, that's fine because that's a personal opinion. But don't post this personal opinion as 'everyone leaves this game because I don't like it' and that kind of nonsense comments.
Because results are highly correlated to a good number of facts
Any idea how many calculations, % of success and failure, are made in 1 Sokker match? Every dribble, every pass, every shot, etc from every players is a calculation. And the % of success are based on skills, form, tactics, etc, not some non-existing data. And almost all choices made by a manager affect the match result (which players to buy, to train, to use, which long term training schedule(s), which tactic(s) for matches, etc etc). And this is just 1 manager, ofcourse there is an opponent, another manager who tries to beat the other with his choices like which players to use, which tactic(s), etc etc. These are all facts.
And not to forget, compared to rl football, in Sokker the differences between low and high skilled players is way bigger as in rl. That's always in favor of the team with better skilled players, (much) more % of success.
I don't have sokker numbers to compare but with milions of real life soccer matches every day around the world is extremely difficult to see one like this
A few of these rl matches are already posted in this forum by a number of managers, but I think you didn't want to see these match results ................
It should be easy to realise that many people might like this ME, but a lot of us will not.
Yep indeed, so talk about like or dislike. Don't present your personal feeling as overall facts without knowing the facts, that makes no sense.
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Yep, like a comment 'this is why most managers leave'. You recognize it? Complete nonsense and based on nothing if you post it like this. Managers who are around for a long time know what the problems are, it's not just 1 problem.
With the same correlation, actual amount of random in sokker ME might be too little for some people or too much for others.
Luckily almost all matches that managers expected to win, they win. So it only becomes a problem when a manager loses a match he expected to win, 1 in every 20 matches or even less? I don't know the exact data, but it won't be a lot more as this number.
Most of the time, the explanation to those that doens't share this opinion, and would like a different ME, is that they don't know how it works.
Don't change words and don't mix knowledge and taste. When someone starts to talk about random results when he means surprising results and keeps saying all is random and wrong, then a manager clearly doesn't know how it works. When someone says he doesn't like the ME because of whatever reason, that's fine because that's a personal opinion. But don't post this personal opinion as 'everyone leaves this game because I don't like it' and that kind of nonsense comments.
Because results are highly correlated to a good number of facts
Any idea how many calculations, % of success and failure, are made in 1 Sokker match? Every dribble, every pass, every shot, etc from every players is a calculation. And the % of success are based on skills, form, tactics, etc, not some non-existing data. And almost all choices made by a manager affect the match result (which players to buy, to train, to use, which long term training schedule(s), which tactic(s) for matches, etc etc). And this is just 1 manager, ofcourse there is an opponent, another manager who tries to beat the other with his choices like which players to use, which tactic(s), etc etc. These are all facts.
And not to forget, compared to rl football, in Sokker the differences between low and high skilled players is way bigger as in rl. That's always in favor of the team with better skilled players, (much) more % of success.
I don't have sokker numbers to compare but with milions of real life soccer matches every day around the world is extremely difficult to see one like this
A few of these rl matches are already posted in this forum by a number of managers, but I think you didn't want to see these match results ................
It should be easy to realise that many people might like this ME, but a lot of us will not.
Yep indeed, so talk about like or dislike. Don't present your personal feeling as overall facts without knowing the facts, that makes no sense.
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I came here to complain because i felt i was getting some unfair results frome quite some time, not because of that single match, that was the tip of the iceberg;
however, as you stated, that may very well have just been my impression, as these kind of matches are, in fact, just an anomaly that still make this game less boring, at least for the ones that could stand them as they are; though, i still have some doubts:
Luckily almost all matches that managers expected to win, they win.
Any idea how many calculations, % of success and failure, are made in 1 Sokker match? Every dribble, every pass, every shot, etc from every players is a calculation. And the % of success are based on skills, form, tactics, etc, not some non-existing data.
About the second part, i really hope it's as you stated, that the ME calculate every single thing and doesn't just give you a prefixed result based solely on the average ratings of the two teams, like i'm starting to doubt; because, regarding the first part, it's true that you almost always win in those extreme conditions (far superior scoring chances, plain match domination etc), but only against teams who score an average rating far below your team's; if you take a look at my match and the one JBlaze posted (http://sokker.org/comment/matchID/27333739), you'll see that the four opposing teams score very similar average ratings, and both ended 1 to 0 for the team who didn't deserve (the second one even more suspicious, the opposing team didn't even have a chance to score and it needed a comical own gol to win); so, what i'm starting to suspect, it's that the ME prefix a result based on the average ratings, than on the graphical simulator makes your tragic goalkeeper save any of the opponent's superdivine striker shots, may as well be over 10, or makes even your opponent's defender score an absurd own goal, in order to make that game end 1 to 0, even if you shot 0 and your opponent shots 20 instead; of course only two matches are too few to make such an assumption, but if i'll get other similar results, i'll post them, just for the sake of knowledge;
The game has much more factors than I thought. Especially in tactics there can be done much more things. When my team looses a game, then I have the biggest chance to see what I can do different in the future. The responsibility (= response + ability) is mine, not the ME´s.
That would be true when you actually get bested by your opponent, and it's completely acceptable, i'd even rush to compliment him if he produced a tactical masterpiece; however, i fail to understand how tactic would influence my striker in his constant wasting of several clear chances against opponent's tragic goalkeeper and, on the contrary, my shabby, opponent's striker who instead manages to score a fluke in his only chance of the game against my superior goalkeeper...
you accept them all as they are.
How about doing the same with the game?
My objective is that of constructive criticism, if this game gets improved we would all benefit from it, not just me.
however, as you stated, that may very well have just been my impression, as these kind of matches are, in fact, just an anomaly that still make this game less boring, at least for the ones that could stand them as they are; though, i still have some doubts:
Luckily almost all matches that managers expected to win, they win.
Any idea how many calculations, % of success and failure, are made in 1 Sokker match? Every dribble, every pass, every shot, etc from every players is a calculation. And the % of success are based on skills, form, tactics, etc, not some non-existing data.
About the second part, i really hope it's as you stated, that the ME calculate every single thing and doesn't just give you a prefixed result based solely on the average ratings of the two teams, like i'm starting to doubt; because, regarding the first part, it's true that you almost always win in those extreme conditions (far superior scoring chances, plain match domination etc), but only against teams who score an average rating far below your team's; if you take a look at my match and the one JBlaze posted (http://sokker.org/comment/matchID/27333739), you'll see that the four opposing teams score very similar average ratings, and both ended 1 to 0 for the team who didn't deserve (the second one even more suspicious, the opposing team didn't even have a chance to score and it needed a comical own gol to win); so, what i'm starting to suspect, it's that the ME prefix a result based on the average ratings, than on the graphical simulator makes your tragic goalkeeper save any of the opponent's superdivine striker shots, may as well be over 10, or makes even your opponent's defender score an absurd own goal, in order to make that game end 1 to 0, even if you shot 0 and your opponent shots 20 instead; of course only two matches are too few to make such an assumption, but if i'll get other similar results, i'll post them, just for the sake of knowledge;
The game has much more factors than I thought. Especially in tactics there can be done much more things. When my team looses a game, then I have the biggest chance to see what I can do different in the future. The responsibility (= response + ability) is mine, not the ME´s.
That would be true when you actually get bested by your opponent, and it's completely acceptable, i'd even rush to compliment him if he produced a tactical masterpiece; however, i fail to understand how tactic would influence my striker in his constant wasting of several clear chances against opponent's tragic goalkeeper and, on the contrary, my shabby, opponent's striker who instead manages to score a fluke in his only chance of the game against my superior goalkeeper...
you accept them all as they are.
How about doing the same with the game?
My objective is that of constructive criticism, if this game gets improved we would all benefit from it, not just me.
About the second part, i really hope it's as you stated, that the ME calculate every single thing and doesn't just give you a prefixed result based solely on the average ratings of the two teams
Some time ago there was a bug, you could play 2 arcade matches at the same with exactly the same team. The results of these matches where not the same, some even very different.
Some time ago there was a bug, you could play 2 arcade matches at the same with exactly the same team. The results of these matches where not the same, some even very different.