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Subject: Cruel game: it robs even the kids!
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you can't really look at a result based on shots and possession. You need to almost implement something like xG so you can actually assess the quality of shots faced.
Let me show you two examples of friendlies I've played with norbert1987
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40173574
and
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40179230
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both of these games, to the outside observer, would look like 'cruel' results. but the honest truth is most of the shots he gets are not dangerous. I play a bit of a trap in the midfield (it's not truly a parked bus, but it's damage mitigation). Even though our 'team scores' are similar, he's got the 5 best players on the field (save for goalie :0 ) playing in that game. Match ratings (as far as I can tell) have as much to do with activity as actual skills....ergo I see examples when my goalie gets a score in the 50s, and another game he gets in the 20s.
You just can't look at a box score and say someone got ripped off. Could norbert have won both games? Yeah, by one goal.
I played more experimental lineups and aggressive formations earlier in the year against him and got absolutely destroyed by him. We play every week.
Let me show you two examples of friendlies I've played with norbert1987
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40173574
and
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40179230
------
both of these games, to the outside observer, would look like 'cruel' results. but the honest truth is most of the shots he gets are not dangerous. I play a bit of a trap in the midfield (it's not truly a parked bus, but it's damage mitigation). Even though our 'team scores' are similar, he's got the 5 best players on the field (save for goalie :0 ) playing in that game. Match ratings (as far as I can tell) have as much to do with activity as actual skills....ergo I see examples when my goalie gets a score in the 50s, and another game he gets in the 20s.
You just can't look at a box score and say someone got ripped off. Could norbert have won both games? Yeah, by one goal.
I played more experimental lineups and aggressive formations earlier in the year against him and got absolutely destroyed by him. We play every week.
I respect your opinion as you are very experienced user form 2005, playing Top division in Spain and being actually a NT coach of Spain.
I believe you're talking more about how you like this beatiful game... I also do.
But revising my last three seasons and clutch games where i have been always on the side of unluck... my hands are falling down... i mean, nowadays I even don't blame my players in Top form playing worst than oponents players in average form (value, marks are always quite close)... nothing helps...
Penalties are a joke in this game.
1v1 are a joke in this game.
Full domination with 20+ shots vs 3 shots and the score 2-2 is a must be in sokker.. at least for my team.
Anyway, I play it... and hope the luck will visit my street too.
Allow me, but this isn't about bad luck, this is about the algorithm. The random is there but it is not huge.
This game isn't tactical, it's algorithmic. You have to place the players, according to their skills, at the right distance from the ball and from the opponent. In fact, this involves many asymmetric alignments. In fact, maybe you always win against many but always lose against some; and if you then change things to win against those few, you lose against those many.
Strange player movements, overlaps, pressing, offside trap, total play, are totally useless to win. The editor is nice but it doesn't work, it's superfluous, it's an illusion.
It was enough to place players once in the whole football field instead of 35 times, to match the algorithm.
If your team is spectacular, if your team plays well, if your team dominates (with the same rating), it loses! Because it doesn't respect the algorithm. In fact you can see a lot of ugly 30's style playing around.
Here the numbers count and not your imagination. If you "lick the bottom" of the algorithm, your team wins but doesn't convince! :-J
I still play for the show, not for victory, but "I'll take off the pebbles from my shoes", "I'll shoot the arrows"!
(edited)
I believe you're talking more about how you like this beatiful game... I also do.
But revising my last three seasons and clutch games where i have been always on the side of unluck... my hands are falling down... i mean, nowadays I even don't blame my players in Top form playing worst than oponents players in average form (value, marks are always quite close)... nothing helps...
Penalties are a joke in this game.
1v1 are a joke in this game.
Full domination with 20+ shots vs 3 shots and the score 2-2 is a must be in sokker.. at least for my team.
Anyway, I play it... and hope the luck will visit my street too.
Allow me, but this isn't about bad luck, this is about the algorithm. The random is there but it is not huge.
This game isn't tactical, it's algorithmic. You have to place the players, according to their skills, at the right distance from the ball and from the opponent. In fact, this involves many asymmetric alignments. In fact, maybe you always win against many but always lose against some; and if you then change things to win against those few, you lose against those many.
Strange player movements, overlaps, pressing, offside trap, total play, are totally useless to win. The editor is nice but it doesn't work, it's superfluous, it's an illusion.
It was enough to place players once in the whole football field instead of 35 times, to match the algorithm.
If your team is spectacular, if your team plays well, if your team dominates (with the same rating), it loses! Because it doesn't respect the algorithm. In fact you can see a lot of ugly 30's style playing around.
Here the numbers count and not your imagination. If you "lick the bottom" of the algorithm, your team wins but doesn't convince! :-J
I still play for the show, not for victory, but "I'll take off the pebbles from my shoes", "I'll shoot the arrows"!
(edited)
you can't really look at a result based on shots and possession. You need to almost implement something like xG so you can actually assess the quality of shots faced.
Let me show you two examples of friendlies I've played with norbert1987
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40173574
and
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40179230
------
both of these games, to the outside observer, would look like 'cruel' results. but the honest truth is most of the shots he gets are not dangerous. I play a bit of a trap in the midfield (it's not truly a parked bus, but it's damage mitigation). Even though our 'team scores' are similar, he's got the 5 best players on the field (save for goalie :0 ) playing in that game. Match ratings (as far as I can tell) have as much to do with activity as actual skills....ergo I see examples when my goalie gets a score in the 50s, and another game he gets in the 20s.
You just can't look at a box score and say someone got ripped off. Could norbert have won both games? Yeah, by one goal.
I played more experimental lineups and aggressive formations earlier in the year against him and got absolutely destroyed by him. We play every week.
I don't have the plus and I can't watch other people's matches.
What is xG? I do not understand...
But I've understood for a long time that this game is mathematical and not tactical. My players almost never appear among the "Best Eleven"; this means that I don't use them well (according to the ME algorithm), but in the game they dominate the opponent; opponent who wins due to a back pass from one of my defenders or a duck from my goalkeeper on the opponent's only cross or an own goal from one of my defenders.
35 squares are not needed to manage this paucity. One is enough!
So anyone who says this game is tactical, is crazy. This game is algorithmic, it is mathematical.
Let me show you two examples of friendlies I've played with norbert1987
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40173574
and
https://sokker.org/comment?matchID=40179230
------
both of these games, to the outside observer, would look like 'cruel' results. but the honest truth is most of the shots he gets are not dangerous. I play a bit of a trap in the midfield (it's not truly a parked bus, but it's damage mitigation). Even though our 'team scores' are similar, he's got the 5 best players on the field (save for goalie :0 ) playing in that game. Match ratings (as far as I can tell) have as much to do with activity as actual skills....ergo I see examples when my goalie gets a score in the 50s, and another game he gets in the 20s.
You just can't look at a box score and say someone got ripped off. Could norbert have won both games? Yeah, by one goal.
I played more experimental lineups and aggressive formations earlier in the year against him and got absolutely destroyed by him. We play every week.
I don't have the plus and I can't watch other people's matches.
What is xG? I do not understand...
But I've understood for a long time that this game is mathematical and not tactical. My players almost never appear among the "Best Eleven"; this means that I don't use them well (according to the ME algorithm), but in the game they dominate the opponent; opponent who wins due to a back pass from one of my defenders or a duck from my goalkeeper on the opponent's only cross or an own goal from one of my defenders.
35 squares are not needed to manage this paucity. One is enough!
So anyone who says this game is tactical, is crazy. This game is algorithmic, it is mathematical.
xG is expected goals. Here's a decent explanation:
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/expected-goals-xg-model-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-useful-sportec-solutions-3177
I just find this whole debate very interesting, because one of the reasons I left the game back in 2010 or whatever was because I had an argument like yours and others.
Since then, I have watched a LOT of professional soccer - whereas, back then, I didn't. I think I have a bit of a different appreciation for how games go now. We'll see in a few seasons though.
Another reason I quit was because of injuries in friendlies, and the fact no one played friendlies for real back then. I still can't believe Raul/Greg/whoever is still dying on the hill here in 2023. Yeah, arcade matches are an excellent addition - I play one almost every day - but none of us should be dealing with anything more than slight injuries, if any, as a result of low intensity friendlies.
That's for a different thread though :)
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/expected-goals-xg-model-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-useful-sportec-solutions-3177
I just find this whole debate very interesting, because one of the reasons I left the game back in 2010 or whatever was because I had an argument like yours and others.
Since then, I have watched a LOT of professional soccer - whereas, back then, I didn't. I think I have a bit of a different appreciation for how games go now. We'll see in a few seasons though.
Another reason I quit was because of injuries in friendlies, and the fact no one played friendlies for real back then. I still can't believe Raul/Greg/whoever is still dying on the hill here in 2023. Yeah, arcade matches are an excellent addition - I play one almost every day - but none of us should be dealing with anything more than slight injuries, if any, as a result of low intensity friendlies.
That's for a different thread though :)
something else to consider is the form of your players, right?
a player in low form plays below his standards. I freely admit I don't understand if this is a thing for juniors, as I don't have a school yet.
right now I am happy I am in B league because my two best defenders have garbage form. If I had to play a serious game, I would probably bench both of them.
a player in low form plays below his standards. I freely admit I don't understand if this is a thing for juniors, as I don't have a school yet.
right now I am happy I am in B league because my two best defenders have garbage form. If I had to play a serious game, I would probably bench both of them.
xG is expected goals. Here's a decent explanation:
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/expected-goals-xg-model-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-useful-sportec-solutions-3177
I just find this whole debate very interesting, because one of the reasons I left the game back in 2010 or whatever was because I had an argument like yours and others.
Since then, I have watched a LOT of professional soccer - whereas, back then, I didn't. I think I have a bit of a different appreciation for how games go now. We'll see in a few seasons though.
Another reason I quit was because of injuries in friendlies, and the fact no one played friendlies for real back then. I still can't believe Raul/Greg/whoever is still dying on the hill here in 2023. Yeah, arcade matches are an excellent addition - I play one almost every day - but none of us should be dealing with anything more than slight injuries, if any, as a result of low intensity friendlies.
That's for a different thread though :)
Ok, this can be useful to understand why in a match the team that has shot the most, conceded the fewest shots, with more ball possession and more playing area may have lost. But a team that always makes such high numbers can't always make poor quality shots and lose 1 game out of 2.
If the opponent makes 1 shot and I make 10, it cannot be assumed that mine are all worse than his! In 1 game out of 2!
It's also difficult to get your attackers to shoot badly in this game; you can't command them what to do, you can only move them.
I often see strikers miss clear scoring chances on valuable plays and then score ridiculous and silly goals, here on Sokker.
This means that the result is already established at the beginning and the quality of the shots is not taken into account.
https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/expected-goals-xg-model-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-useful-sportec-solutions-3177
I just find this whole debate very interesting, because one of the reasons I left the game back in 2010 or whatever was because I had an argument like yours and others.
Since then, I have watched a LOT of professional soccer - whereas, back then, I didn't. I think I have a bit of a different appreciation for how games go now. We'll see in a few seasons though.
Another reason I quit was because of injuries in friendlies, and the fact no one played friendlies for real back then. I still can't believe Raul/Greg/whoever is still dying on the hill here in 2023. Yeah, arcade matches are an excellent addition - I play one almost every day - but none of us should be dealing with anything more than slight injuries, if any, as a result of low intensity friendlies.
That's for a different thread though :)
Ok, this can be useful to understand why in a match the team that has shot the most, conceded the fewest shots, with more ball possession and more playing area may have lost. But a team that always makes such high numbers can't always make poor quality shots and lose 1 game out of 2.
If the opponent makes 1 shot and I make 10, it cannot be assumed that mine are all worse than his! In 1 game out of 2!
It's also difficult to get your attackers to shoot badly in this game; you can't command them what to do, you can only move them.
I often see strikers miss clear scoring chances on valuable plays and then score ridiculous and silly goals, here on Sokker.
This means that the result is already established at the beginning and the quality of the shots is not taken into account.
something else to consider is the form of your players, right?
a player in low form plays below his standards. I freely admit I don't understand if this is a thing for juniors, as I don't have a school yet.
right now I am happy I am in B league because my two best defenders have garbage form. If I had to play a serious game, I would probably bench both of them.
I suspect that form (along with injuries) only serves to give you "headaches" when setting up a game, but during the game it has no effect.
In the past I have always taken care of form, tactical discipline and the average rating in important matches; they were almost always superior to those of the opponent, but I found no benefit.
I've also seen my team and opposing teams play no worse despite sending offs or fewer players.
I also noticed that with a strong goalkeeper the attackers score more easily! Poorer players play better than usual because there is a stronger player on the pitch, who gets worse when playing! This means that the quality, the total skills are partially distributed among all the players. This is math, and it goes against tactics. If you are good you also know how to use a poorer player; if you're good you can also play without a goalkeeper because you don't suffer any shots and you make many.
a player in low form plays below his standards. I freely admit I don't understand if this is a thing for juniors, as I don't have a school yet.
right now I am happy I am in B league because my two best defenders have garbage form. If I had to play a serious game, I would probably bench both of them.
I suspect that form (along with injuries) only serves to give you "headaches" when setting up a game, but during the game it has no effect.
In the past I have always taken care of form, tactical discipline and the average rating in important matches; they were almost always superior to those of the opponent, but I found no benefit.
I've also seen my team and opposing teams play no worse despite sending offs or fewer players.
I also noticed that with a strong goalkeeper the attackers score more easily! Poorer players play better than usual because there is a stronger player on the pitch, who gets worse when playing! This means that the quality, the total skills are partially distributed among all the players. This is math, and it goes against tactics. If you are good you also know how to use a poorer player; if you're good you can also play without a goalkeeper because you don't suffer any shots and you make many.
I agree with you on many things. The game has errors, such as a offside in favor of your half where your defender gets 30 meters ahead of the kick-off zone and the opposing forwards avoid being offside. many more failures, of course. I think that the fact of how we lose games hurts us more, than not really not winning them by being superior at times.
...such as a offside in favor of your half where your defender gets 30 meters ahead of the kick-off zone and the opposing forwards avoid being offside...
Lol! :-D
Yes! Or even when the goalkeeper, after catching the ball away from goal, first runs back towards the goal but then returns to where he caught the ball to kick it away!
Or when, restarting from their own penalty area, defenders advance in disorder instead of forming a line.
There is a discrepancy between the Game Engine and the tactics editor.
Parallel "handmade" championships should be organized (through arcade matches perhaps) where goals can be calculated based on the number of shots, percentage of the playing area and ball possession and rating difference in the match.
Lol! :-D
Yes! Or even when the goalkeeper, after catching the ball away from goal, first runs back towards the goal but then returns to where he caught the ball to kick it away!
Or when, restarting from their own penalty area, defenders advance in disorder instead of forming a line.
There is a discrepancy between the Game Engine and the tactics editor.
Parallel "handmade" championships should be organized (through arcade matches perhaps) where goals can be calculated based on the number of shots, percentage of the playing area and ball possession and rating difference in the match.
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