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Subject: Is European Union good or bad thing?
Mmm thats true, but there are dozens of leaders like sadam around the world, so why Irak?
I understund the atack of Afganistan, cause Afg. was ruled by extremists muslims and the attack to Usa was made by extremists muslims, so there is a relation
but sadam , was not religious goverment so there is not a link with 11/9
anyway we are coming offtopic xD
I understund the atack of Afganistan, cause Afg. was ruled by extremists muslims and the attack to Usa was made by extremists muslims, so there is a relation
but sadam , was not religious goverment so there is not a link with 11/9
anyway we are coming offtopic xD
i didn't know this was the reason of the attack :D
even the usa wasn't so hypocrite to say this :D
even the usa wasn't so hypocrite to say this :D
The US did not decide that there was to be a war in Israel/Palestine. The US don't dare to invade Iran - both because of the lack of support from both the region and in the world community and because of the fact that they cannot be sure whether they have the nuclear bomb or not.
There's a line between being pro- someone and doing everything they say. The EU don't need to act like an enemy of the US to be strong, we don't need to create conflicts when there are none.
There's a line between being pro- someone and doing everything they say. The EU don't need to act like an enemy of the US to be strong, we don't need to create conflicts when there are none.
The current problems in Iraq should never occur if coalition set it right in 1991. It was won-lost war thanks inability of Bush senior.
Second war with Iraq was too late. Now it should be long-term pain in American policy where all choices are bad. Syria and Iran have their interests and I dont see possible stabilization in forthcoming years.
War on Afghanistan should be also much sooner. The movement as Taliban and organisation like al-Qaeda are againist all in what not western, but moderen civilization belief. Banning and destroying any culture, education and supporting massacres and terrorism. BTW even Iran opposed it.
Bombing of Yugoslavia was because legitimate government is making genoicide in civil war. Yeah Kosovo Albanians were not better, but there were two choices - make something or leave them to fight. This also should lead to wider reactions in region, in former Yugoslav republics as well in Albania. It was painful see in tv bombarding of our slavic brothers. But they supported regime which caused to much pain to other nations.
Well we should return to topic.
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Second war with Iraq was too late. Now it should be long-term pain in American policy where all choices are bad. Syria and Iran have their interests and I dont see possible stabilization in forthcoming years.
War on Afghanistan should be also much sooner. The movement as Taliban and organisation like al-Qaeda are againist all in what not western, but moderen civilization belief. Banning and destroying any culture, education and supporting massacres and terrorism. BTW even Iran opposed it.
Bombing of Yugoslavia was because legitimate government is making genoicide in civil war. Yeah Kosovo Albanians were not better, but there were two choices - make something or leave them to fight. This also should lead to wider reactions in region, in former Yugoslav republics as well in Albania. It was painful see in tv bombarding of our slavic brothers. But they supported regime which caused to much pain to other nations.
Well we should return to topic.
(edited)
On Jan. 15, 1999, following a military operation by Yugoslav armed forces against a KLA stronghold at Racak, KLA leaders led OSCE observers to a gully where 45 bodies were piled on top of each other. Without waiting for any investigation, the United States, through Ambassador William Walker, immediately announced that the Serbs had carried out a massacre of unarmed Kosovo Albanian civilians. As we learn more about Racak, the story of the massacre is becoming increasingly hard to sustain. On March 17, 1999, a week before its onslaught on Yugoslavia, NATO organized a press conference at which Helena Ranta, the leader of the Finnish forensic team hired by the OSCE to investigate Racak, announced her findings. Though the Finnish team's report was never published, the U.S. government, with the New York Times in tow, touted her inconclusive findings as confirmation of William Walker's initial statement that a massacre had taken place at Racak.
Recently, Ranta revealed the pressure she was under to make her findings conform with NATO requirements. In an interview with Berliner Zeitung, she declared that she knew at the time of her investigation that there were:
KLA-fighters buried around Racak.At that time I received information that proved that several Serb soldiers had been killed as well. Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number of Serb soldiers that died that night.When Ambassador Walker said that there was a massacre at Racak, this statement had no legal value. I declared at that time that the OSCE-observers forgot to take all steps necessary to secure a crime scene: isolating the area, refusing admission to all unauthorized persons and colleting all material evidence.[It was clear] that a bunch of governments were interested in a version of Racak that blamed only the Serb side. But I could not provide this version.
it is not all black and white, You know as much as they want You to know. read this and then tell me about Serbs crimes on Kosovo ...
Recently, Ranta revealed the pressure she was under to make her findings conform with NATO requirements. In an interview with Berliner Zeitung, she declared that she knew at the time of her investigation that there were:
KLA-fighters buried around Racak.At that time I received information that proved that several Serb soldiers had been killed as well. Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number of Serb soldiers that died that night.When Ambassador Walker said that there was a massacre at Racak, this statement had no legal value. I declared at that time that the OSCE-observers forgot to take all steps necessary to secure a crime scene: isolating the area, refusing admission to all unauthorized persons and colleting all material evidence.[It was clear] that a bunch of governments were interested in a version of Racak that blamed only the Serb side. But I could not provide this version.
it is not all black and white, You know as much as they want You to know. read this and then tell me about Serbs crimes on Kosovo ...
You should read more carefuly what I have written. I have said that Kosovian Albanians werent better. But its difference if genocide is by terrorists or by official army of sovereign state.
No there is no difference.
Afterall innocent ppl die, so where is the difference?
Afterall innocent ppl die, so where is the difference?
Therefore I already said that I don't exactly know what happened in Serbia, but everybody knows that a lot of innocent lifes were killed at that time.
I know what you written mate, but they werent better. they were worse
Afghanistan is in war because USA decided that....
Iraq is in war because USA decided that...
Palestine is in war because USA decided that...
next will be Iran... and you know why? Because USA decided that...
True about Afghanistan and Iraq.
Palestine in war because of USA? Now that's bullpoo. Palestine is basically in war because both the Palestines and Isrealites were promised the same lands, some time after World War 1. The US and A had nothing to do with it.
Iran.. I don't know. Not likely I think.
Besides, being pro-EU does not mean you have to be anti-USA...
Iraq is in war because USA decided that...
Palestine is in war because USA decided that...
next will be Iran... and you know why? Because USA decided that...
True about Afghanistan and Iraq.
Palestine in war because of USA? Now that's bullpoo. Palestine is basically in war because both the Palestines and Isrealites were promised the same lands, some time after World War 1. The US and A had nothing to do with it.
Iran.. I don't know. Not likely I think.
Besides, being pro-EU does not mean you have to be anti-USA...
I agree with you, first 2 are OK, but Palestine I think is way beyond direct US action, and Iran... let's see; I don't think so.
When was it the last time a European country had been attacked by a non-European country
serbia, spring 1999, bombed by the usa
Actually, I bet a really high percent of non-civil wars in the last years, anywhere, will end "bombed by the USA" :P
Anyway, I can see a point there, when talking about European common defense, etc: last time a country within Europe was attacked, the reaction of the rest of the countries was to say "shame on us... how didn't we attack them first!!" :P
It's not like I would trust much in Europe defending me, if I was a European country :P
@Red:
I think it was Falklands 1982.
Well, I don't think the main reason to join NATO nor to create a Euro-Army is the terrible fear of being deadly attacked by Argentina :P
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When was it the last time a European country had been attacked by a non-European country
serbia, spring 1999, bombed by the usa
Actually, I bet a really high percent of non-civil wars in the last years, anywhere, will end "bombed by the USA" :P
Anyway, I can see a point there, when talking about European common defense, etc: last time a country within Europe was attacked, the reaction of the rest of the countries was to say "shame on us... how didn't we attack them first!!" :P
It's not like I would trust much in Europe defending me, if I was a European country :P
@Red:
I think it was Falklands 1982.
Well, I don't think the main reason to join NATO nor to create a Euro-Army is the terrible fear of being deadly attacked by Argentina :P
(edited)
There's a lot of anti-Argentinaism in the Netherlands. A lot of people believe the Argentinians are controlling God's hands and they believe those Argentinians will misuse the, once.
I voted bad ! ... don't like it we pay money to help other countries to spend it on nothing :S And even worse ... we pay that amount of money to help the economy of other countries but still all the Polish and other eastern-europeans comes here to find work ....
We dutch pay, almost if it isn't the most to the EU, and have to beg to get some of OUR money back to invist it in OUR country. England gets money and pay nothing because we wants them so badly in the EU :S. The french only spend it to keep their wine-farms alive and use that wine to make energy because no one wants to buy their wine anymore but WE have to pay billions to keep those farmers alive, completely idiot ..... Half of Italia is poor and we pay them ... and I already wrote something about the eastern-Europeans ... If I write more about it I won't make friends over here but to say it the right way ... take care of your own problems and don't dependent on the EU, OUR money, MY money !!! .......
And even worse ... probably our 'coffee shops' have to be closed in the next decade because of EU-rules ... blah blah .. a part of our culture. First stop the bull-killing in Spain before someone even can say a thing about our cultural thing. People who wants to smoke weed makes that desicion by their own, those bulls who are killed don't !!
We, the dutch, are better of without the EU. Spend OUR money in OUR own country without the EU rules. We lose money by spending it to the EU ... AND close our borders and only let good people in we need and not everyone who 'steals' our jobs or thinks that they move to a paradice :)
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We dutch pay, almost if it isn't the most to the EU, and have to beg to get some of OUR money back to invist it in OUR country. England gets money and pay nothing because we wants them so badly in the EU :S. The french only spend it to keep their wine-farms alive and use that wine to make energy because no one wants to buy their wine anymore but WE have to pay billions to keep those farmers alive, completely idiot ..... Half of Italia is poor and we pay them ... and I already wrote something about the eastern-Europeans ... If I write more about it I won't make friends over here but to say it the right way ... take care of your own problems and don't dependent on the EU, OUR money, MY money !!! .......
And even worse ... probably our 'coffee shops' have to be closed in the next decade because of EU-rules ... blah blah .. a part of our culture. First stop the bull-killing in Spain before someone even can say a thing about our cultural thing. People who wants to smoke weed makes that desicion by their own, those bulls who are killed don't !!
We, the dutch, are better of without the EU. Spend OUR money in OUR own country without the EU rules. We lose money by spending it to the EU ... AND close our borders and only let good people in we need and not everyone who 'steals' our jobs or thinks that they move to a paradice :)
(edited)
We were the biggest net contributors per capita during the referendums.
In my opinion you forgot one very important thing: the Netherlands are a transition country. Trade is a very important part of our economy, more than it is in other countries. Your statement might be true if the European Union would not exist, but not now. That the Netherlands are part of the European Union means that there are a lot of other countries the Netherlands could trade with. If we wouldn't be part of the European Union (and Belgium would) than Belgian ports would be much more interesting for trade with the European Union and the Netherlands would lose a lot of possible trading partners to Belgium.
Our country currently is in the top-10 of countries with highest development indexes. That does not automatically mean that you're rich, but it does mean that quality of life is very high and that's more important than just being rich.
Like all things which are in the present are there thanks to their preceding histories. That means that our current position in the top-10 of countries is because of our history or, better said, everything happened in our history. There are definitely things which limit development, but I think that there are much more things which boosted that development and I'm sure European cooperation is one of those things. That doesn't automatically mean that the EU (European cooperation and European Union do not necessarily need to be the same) would be one of those things which boosted our development, but it's definitely worth to take the influence of the European Union on our current position into account, whatever that influence may be.
I also do not agree that we should not pay money to countries which need help. Like everybody knows our country has exploited many other countries for centuries to get as rich as possible. Now that we're rich we should not be mocking about some couple of bucks we're giving away.
And about those Eastern European laborers I wrote before that they're not stealing jobs as those people are only filling jobs Dutch don't want to do anymore. I really have seen fields of berries filled by Poles harvesting them. Apart from youths who want to make a little body there's no sane person in the Netherlands willing to do it. Even when you have finished one of the lowest levels of education you can get a much better job. A good carpenter does not need to be high educationed, at least not if we're talking about theoretical education. Still he may be an outstanding craftsmen and carpenting is definitely much more fun than plucking berries.
And if you're a Polish carpenter? Too bad, most don't have a diploma or they don't have a valid workpermit. Besides that those Polish workers don't speak any word Dutch, German or English and that makes them very unattractive for hiring them.
(edited)
In my opinion you forgot one very important thing: the Netherlands are a transition country. Trade is a very important part of our economy, more than it is in other countries. Your statement might be true if the European Union would not exist, but not now. That the Netherlands are part of the European Union means that there are a lot of other countries the Netherlands could trade with. If we wouldn't be part of the European Union (and Belgium would) than Belgian ports would be much more interesting for trade with the European Union and the Netherlands would lose a lot of possible trading partners to Belgium.
Our country currently is in the top-10 of countries with highest development indexes. That does not automatically mean that you're rich, but it does mean that quality of life is very high and that's more important than just being rich.
Like all things which are in the present are there thanks to their preceding histories. That means that our current position in the top-10 of countries is because of our history or, better said, everything happened in our history. There are definitely things which limit development, but I think that there are much more things which boosted that development and I'm sure European cooperation is one of those things. That doesn't automatically mean that the EU (European cooperation and European Union do not necessarily need to be the same) would be one of those things which boosted our development, but it's definitely worth to take the influence of the European Union on our current position into account, whatever that influence may be.
I also do not agree that we should not pay money to countries which need help. Like everybody knows our country has exploited many other countries for centuries to get as rich as possible. Now that we're rich we should not be mocking about some couple of bucks we're giving away.
And about those Eastern European laborers I wrote before that they're not stealing jobs as those people are only filling jobs Dutch don't want to do anymore. I really have seen fields of berries filled by Poles harvesting them. Apart from youths who want to make a little body there's no sane person in the Netherlands willing to do it. Even when you have finished one of the lowest levels of education you can get a much better job. A good carpenter does not need to be high educationed, at least not if we're talking about theoretical education. Still he may be an outstanding craftsmen and carpenting is definitely much more fun than plucking berries.
And if you're a Polish carpenter? Too bad, most don't have a diploma or they don't have a valid workpermit. Besides that those Polish workers don't speak any word Dutch, German or English and that makes them very unattractive for hiring them.
(edited)
O_O
no more dutch coffee shops?
it's terrible: bad, bad UE..
no more dutch coffee shops?
it's terrible: bad, bad UE..