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Subject: Is European Union good or bad thing?
I think we should go back to what it began with, the Benelux :p
"If EU was an inter-state cooperation you'd be right as the subjects within the cooperation then would be states. The fact is though that EU on quite a few areas is supranational and hence operate with it's citizens as subjects. That's why it's a democratic deficit to grant people living in a less populated area more power."
It should work if I have voted not only Czech, but also Italian, Danish and other representatives. Its quite impossible now and, most probably, impossible in future. To this time more logical is country-country relations. Without legitimate parliament it falls also its need. I am happy with current situation where parliament dont oppose national one.
"Why is it natural?" - Because they feel that they have small power when its fair. Thats historical experience.
"You do realize that the Parliament is divided into different political groups in relation to their political conviction and not in relation to the population to their country, right?" - Of course, in socialist group will Austrian oppose anything with which come Czech and in Conservative group it works as well.
"I totally agree, but that doesn't have much to do with the charter?" That has to do with all EU reform joke.
(edited)
It should work if I have voted not only Czech, but also Italian, Danish and other representatives. Its quite impossible now and, most probably, impossible in future. To this time more logical is country-country relations. Without legitimate parliament it falls also its need. I am happy with current situation where parliament dont oppose national one.
"Why is it natural?" - Because they feel that they have small power when its fair. Thats historical experience.
"You do realize that the Parliament is divided into different political groups in relation to their political conviction and not in relation to the population to their country, right?" - Of course, in socialist group will Austrian oppose anything with which come Czech and in Conservative group it works as well.
"I totally agree, but that doesn't have much to do with the charter?" That has to do with all EU reform joke.
(edited)
Yes, join us like a big army of stupindnes. or be like me ...dont worry. join the army, after that u wont give a s....
but. eu gives sometihing too. let it be a part of it . dont ask me what, ask urs politicians. if there are any...if u think ur country have simple laws....forget it. wellcome to hell. ewen the specialists dont know all about eu stantards. but i personally wellcome u all to join the eu.
but. eu gives sometihing too. let it be a part of it . dont ask me what, ask urs politicians. if there are any...if u think ur country have simple laws....forget it. wellcome to hell. ewen the specialists dont know all about eu stantards. but i personally wellcome u all to join the eu.
Well, first of all I would like to clarify something: I'm not against poor countries neither I'm against opening the border to people from other countries.
I would like a world without borders, where everyone can travel without problems of Visa and where everyone could go for turism or work in any other place in the world.
But talking about EU... as they say... The European Union is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states.
Now, where do you see this community between states like Estonia and the Netherlands, or Romania and France, or Poland and Ireland?
Talking about economy:
the inflation in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria... is 2% or less...
in countries like Romania, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria is 3,5% or more...
the GDP (per person) in Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany... is more than 30k dollars per year
the GDP in those other new EU countries (apart from Slovenia, Cyprus, Malta and Czech) is under 20k dollars per year
Talking about politic:
To join the EU, a country must meet the Copenhagen criteria, it means that must have a stable democracy which respects human rights and the rule of law.
Now I want to remind you that those human rights do not exist in countries such:
Latvia In 2006 approximately 18 per cent of the total population (420,000 inhabitants of Latvia, slightly less than half of ethnically non-Latvian population) has no Latvian citizenship. Most of them have Latvian non-Citizen Passports, which give them a status similar to permanent residency in other countries. Non-citizens of Latvia cannot vote during municipal and state elections and are not allowed to work in government, police and civil services.
Estonia Last summer in Estonia has been commemorated SS troops. Estonia's Defence minister has sent a letter to a group of former Nazi soldiers comparing them to the fighters who secured the country's independence in 1920. Estonia is the only country in Europe to authorise such events.
Poland To find episodes of antisemitism you have just to write the words Poland and antisemitism in google and you will find thousands results. Poland remains among the European countries with the largest percentages of people holding anti-Semitic views.
What I mean is that EU could be a great organization but in the last years it's losing his good image. We need a EU strong, competitive with US or Japan in economy. EU should have a military force indipendent from the NATO (that everyone knows is ruled by US). It is good that new countries join EU but they have to respect such conditions that have been established at the beginning.
I hope in the future EU will include all the countries that are part of Europe, but to do so everyone must do his part.
I would like a world without borders, where everyone can travel without problems of Visa and where everyone could go for turism or work in any other place in the world.
But talking about EU... as they say... The European Union is a political and economic community of twenty-seven member states.
Now, where do you see this community between states like Estonia and the Netherlands, or Romania and France, or Poland and Ireland?
Talking about economy:
the inflation in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria... is 2% or less...
in countries like Romania, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria is 3,5% or more...
the GDP (per person) in Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany... is more than 30k dollars per year
the GDP in those other new EU countries (apart from Slovenia, Cyprus, Malta and Czech) is under 20k dollars per year
Talking about politic:
To join the EU, a country must meet the Copenhagen criteria, it means that must have a stable democracy which respects human rights and the rule of law.
Now I want to remind you that those human rights do not exist in countries such:
Latvia In 2006 approximately 18 per cent of the total population (420,000 inhabitants of Latvia, slightly less than half of ethnically non-Latvian population) has no Latvian citizenship. Most of them have Latvian non-Citizen Passports, which give them a status similar to permanent residency in other countries. Non-citizens of Latvia cannot vote during municipal and state elections and are not allowed to work in government, police and civil services.
Estonia Last summer in Estonia has been commemorated SS troops. Estonia's Defence minister has sent a letter to a group of former Nazi soldiers comparing them to the fighters who secured the country's independence in 1920. Estonia is the only country in Europe to authorise such events.
Poland To find episodes of antisemitism you have just to write the words Poland and antisemitism in google and you will find thousands results. Poland remains among the European countries with the largest percentages of people holding anti-Semitic views.
What I mean is that EU could be a great organization but in the last years it's losing his good image. We need a EU strong, competitive with US or Japan in economy. EU should have a military force indipendent from the NATO (that everyone knows is ruled by US). It is good that new countries join EU but they have to respect such conditions that have been established at the beginning.
I hope in the future EU will include all the countries that are part of Europe, but to do so everyone must do his part.
Estonia Last summer in Estonia has been commemorated SS troops. Estonia's Defence minister has sent a letter to a group of former Nazi soldiers comparing them to the fighters who secured the country's independence in 1920. Estonia is the only country in Europe to authorise such events.
Really,what the F are You trying now? Get sobre,honestly. An Italian is talking about Nazies!?!? Umm,where have i heard that before?
It is good that new countries join EU but they have to respect such conditions that have been established at the beginning.
The conditions,that big countries make?
This is so typical way of thinking for a big country inhabitant.
(edited)
Really,what the F are You trying now? Get sobre,honestly. An Italian is talking about Nazies!?!? Umm,where have i heard that before?
It is good that new countries join EU but they have to respect such conditions that have been established at the beginning.
The conditions,that big countries make?
This is so typical way of thinking for a big country inhabitant.
(edited)
You give strange arguments. I mean, have you tried googling antisemitism plus any other country? Or maybe antisemitism plus Jörg Heider? Are you serious about this "google-meter"? :P
Also, Spain has an inflation around 4%, it has had an inflation between 1 and 2 points higher than those countries you mention for the last 5 years or so. And it also had higher growth...
Igues there are many reasons to join other countries, and also many reason not to join them, but I just find the ones you give there rather strange :P
(edited)
Also, Spain has an inflation around 4%, it has had an inflation between 1 and 2 points higher than those countries you mention for the last 5 years or so. And it also had higher growth...
Igues there are many reasons to join other countries, and also many reason not to join them, but I just find the ones you give there rather strange :P
(edited)
Well in Spain at the moment there is an inflation of 3.4%, but you should also see that they have a GDP of 28k dollars per year... Greece is in a similar situation... I hope they'll get better...
"Now, where do you see this community between states like Estonia and the Netherlands, or Romania and France, or Poland and Ireland?"
Where do I see a community between regions in the Netherlands like, for example, the isle of Ameland and the region of southern Limburg? Nowhere! That's because you don't pay attention to small things. I've often read in newspapers how small countries were able to invest and cooperate with companies in Baltic nations.
"Talking about economy:
the inflation in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria... is 2% or less...
in countries like Romania, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria is 3,5% or more...
the GDP (per person) in Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany... is more than 30k dollars per year
the GDP in those other new EU countries (apart from Slovenia, Cyprus, Malta and Czech) is under 20k dollars per year"
First of all: inflation doesn't say anything about how well an economy is running, however it's well known that inflation is necessary for a healthy economy. There's no problem with a difference in income, especially not if it can be made very small in 10/15 years. Besides that: what is the problem with cooperating with poorer countries? Only thing I can think of is that you're afraid that your country also becomes poor when you cooperate with poor countries, that you're afraid of poor people/countries.
I won't reply to the other arguments because they're nonsense.
Where do I see a community between regions in the Netherlands like, for example, the isle of Ameland and the region of southern Limburg? Nowhere! That's because you don't pay attention to small things. I've often read in newspapers how small countries were able to invest and cooperate with companies in Baltic nations.
"Talking about economy:
the inflation in countries like Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Finland, Austria... is 2% or less...
in countries like Romania, Latvia, Hungary, Estonia, Bulgaria is 3,5% or more...
the GDP (per person) in Belgium, Ireland, the Netherlands, Italy, France, Germany... is more than 30k dollars per year
the GDP in those other new EU countries (apart from Slovenia, Cyprus, Malta and Czech) is under 20k dollars per year"
First of all: inflation doesn't say anything about how well an economy is running, however it's well known that inflation is necessary for a healthy economy. There's no problem with a difference in income, especially not if it can be made very small in 10/15 years. Besides that: what is the problem with cooperating with poorer countries? Only thing I can think of is that you're afraid that your country also becomes poor when you cooperate with poor countries, that you're afraid of poor people/countries.
I won't reply to the other arguments because they're nonsense.
"If EU was an inter-state cooperation you'd be right as the subjects within the cooperation then would be states. The fact is though that EU on quite a few areas is supranational and hence operate with it's citizens as subjects. That's why it's a democratic deficit to grant people living in a less populated area more power."
No, Europe is not some kind of supranational and we neither want it to be. That's why the Dutch and the French voted against the constitution. The idea of a constitution is completely wrong as it would imply that the European Union would become an institution to rule and not an institution to cooperate. The idea of a supranational country is far from democratic.
"You do realize that the Parliament is divided into different political groups in relation to their political conviction and not in relation to the population to their country, right?"
It doesn't work like that. Dutch Christian democrats, Dutch socialists and Dutch liberalisms all rate Dutch interests higher than foreign interests. If that wouldn't be true there would be something wrong as that isn't possible cause Dutch representatives are elected by Dutch people and they wouldn't vote for a representative if they would not rate Dutch interests high enough.
"That seemed to be your main concern when arguing for not letting the number of representatives be proportional with the population of a country."
Oh yes, they will. I consider the Netherlands as a small country and the Netherlands were during the time of the referendums the biggest net payer of the European Union. For the Dutch it was a very valid reason to vote 'no'. Another thing is the protection of the agrarian sector and the argument those French and English governments are having which prevents smaller countries from removing subsidies. That's exploiting smaller countries. I don't care about being exploited cause I'm living in a rich country. The Dutch economy is one of the best of complete Europe and the Netherlands have a very high Human Development Index. But the thing I don't like is poor people being exploited and minorities being suppressed. Most modern countries have had or are still having a history of suppression of minorities (there are also a lot of minorities in your country) and we should learn of that and not trying to make the same mistakes again.
No, Europe is not some kind of supranational and we neither want it to be. That's why the Dutch and the French voted against the constitution. The idea of a constitution is completely wrong as it would imply that the European Union would become an institution to rule and not an institution to cooperate. The idea of a supranational country is far from democratic.
"You do realize that the Parliament is divided into different political groups in relation to their political conviction and not in relation to the population to their country, right?"
It doesn't work like that. Dutch Christian democrats, Dutch socialists and Dutch liberalisms all rate Dutch interests higher than foreign interests. If that wouldn't be true there would be something wrong as that isn't possible cause Dutch representatives are elected by Dutch people and they wouldn't vote for a representative if they would not rate Dutch interests high enough.
"That seemed to be your main concern when arguing for not letting the number of representatives be proportional with the population of a country."
Oh yes, they will. I consider the Netherlands as a small country and the Netherlands were during the time of the referendums the biggest net payer of the European Union. For the Dutch it was a very valid reason to vote 'no'. Another thing is the protection of the agrarian sector and the argument those French and English governments are having which prevents smaller countries from removing subsidies. That's exploiting smaller countries. I don't care about being exploited cause I'm living in a rich country. The Dutch economy is one of the best of complete Europe and the Netherlands have a very high Human Development Index. But the thing I don't like is poor people being exploited and minorities being suppressed. Most modern countries have had or are still having a history of suppression of minorities (there are also a lot of minorities in your country) and we should learn of that and not trying to make the same mistakes again.
Romania and France was a really bad example; they have political and economical connections for a very long time. (have you ever heard about Dacia cars? [:D])
Only thing I can think of is that you're afraid that your country also becomes poor when you cooperate with poor countries, that you're afraid of poor people/countries.
Don't put in my mouth things that I didn't say... as I wrote in my post I'm not against poor countries neither I'm against opening the border to people from other countries.
Moreover if I should decide for my country I would prefer Italy out of the EU. We have too many internal problems that we are not able to heal... and the EU is surely not helping us to solve those problems...
Don't put in my mouth things that I didn't say... as I wrote in my post I'm not against poor countries neither I'm against opening the border to people from other countries.
Moreover if I should decide for my country I would prefer Italy out of the EU. We have too many internal problems that we are not able to heal... and the EU is surely not helping us to solve those problems...
"Don't put in my mouth things that I didn't say... as I wrote in my post I'm not against poor countries neither I'm against opening the border to people from other countries."
You don't give any valid reasons for it. Only thing seems to be you're afraid.
You don't give any valid reasons for it. Only thing seems to be you're afraid.
The only reason why those country are in EU is because their government is easily corruptable and ...
lol, do you realize how funny that sounds coming from an italian? :P
lol, do you realize how funny that sounds coming from an italian? :P
The only reason why those country are in EU is because their government is easily corruptable and ...
lol, do you realize how funny that sounds coming from an italian? :P
Ahahah... Man you damn rigth!!! [xD]
FatAss, owned! [dlb]
lol, do you realize how funny that sounds coming from an italian? :P
Ahahah... Man you damn rigth!!! [xD]
FatAss, owned! [dlb]
I think he meant that our goverments have another priorities which should be gave only by USA so we are corrupting Franco-German antiamerican bloc.
