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Subject: Pmanager
And what is involved in making good tactical choices in PM? How many tactical options are there and what do they consist of?
The tactical part of the game isn't simple to explain in few words. There are tactics (formations, type of pass and style of play) and advanced tactics (where you choose to make pressure or not, and how to make pressure, way of defence and how they are going to stop the forwards and so on) that means a combination of player's skills that make them a great team against determinated opponents.
Of course you still need players with certain skills but you can have weaker players and still defeat stronger teams playing better. It's not easy as it seems and it's not very common, but there is a good possibility for smart managers to make smart moves and beat them.
For example, In Sokker I've played once against a stronger team that did off-side trap. His players were very good bad he didn't positioned them very well. Still I lost a good time and edited a tactic to my forward have many balls in one to one with the keeper. He recieved many balls but his players always ran a lot more than my players and stole the ball from behind all the time very easily. I've watched this game many times and I've seen no tactical change at all I could do to win this game. That's one thing I miss this chance in Sokker.
edit: But please, I also like this game a lot, don't misunderstood me. Also I can be wrong about that and realise that later, that's just my opinion right now.
(edited)
The tactical part of the game isn't simple to explain in few words. There are tactics (formations, type of pass and style of play) and advanced tactics (where you choose to make pressure or not, and how to make pressure, way of defence and how they are going to stop the forwards and so on) that means a combination of player's skills that make them a great team against determinated opponents.
Of course you still need players with certain skills but you can have weaker players and still defeat stronger teams playing better. It's not easy as it seems and it's not very common, but there is a good possibility for smart managers to make smart moves and beat them.
For example, In Sokker I've played once against a stronger team that did off-side trap. His players were very good bad he didn't positioned them very well. Still I lost a good time and edited a tactic to my forward have many balls in one to one with the keeper. He recieved many balls but his players always ran a lot more than my players and stole the ball from behind all the time very easily. I've watched this game many times and I've seen no tactical change at all I could do to win this game. That's one thing I miss this chance in Sokker.
edit: But please, I also like this game a lot, don't misunderstood me. Also I can be wrong about that and realise that later, that's just my opinion right now.
(edited)
So basically you have a finite number of options you can tinker with. Why don't you enumerate them and let us judge how complex it is. Point is the way Sokker implements tactics supersedes that approach. It's not perfect and needs to be worked upon but it's unparalleled in determining where your players will be on the field although unfortunately not necessarily how they'll play, maybe the focus for future expansion of tactics. I'll certainly opt for that, even if at the moment it has its flaws.
There your tactical choise is very important... for example, me... i'm on B-3 Portugal, with the worst team of that div. and i'm with 2 games, 2 victorys. Why? Cause I'm winning some Advanced Tactics that give to you bonus (stars), I have 2 wing attackers against 0 defenders mark them, cause the weather is giving me bonus, etc... of course all these things are based in our team quality, and obviously i havent that bad team.. but with my team I can beat better ones, if I made the right choices! Obviously if you loose Advanced Tactics, you loose stars, if you have 1 Center Forward to 3 Center Defenders, is harder to you to score... The key is to scout other team well, loose time see them last games, seeing wich type of tactics, AT's, Type of pass, etc they use, etc, and obviously if you use the same tactic is easier to the adversary to beat you! PM for me is the best online football game! =)
And there's your flaw in logic. I never said that your tactical choices there wouldn't be important but the point is the game restricts you to a finite, small, rudimentary set of tactical options, no duh any subsequent mis-matches would have drastic consequences.
It's a mere game of luck how that small number of rudimentary choices would match up and thus the big impact they would have in the presence or lack of such mis-matches, depending on perspective. About time that you people pipe down.
Here the adopted approach involves the indulging of the desire to do more than throw a several sided die. That's its advantage and people tend to appreciate that. It's immensely more difficult to realize from a developer's point of view and at the moment it is at an average state with its many flaws and imperfections but because of the nature of the approach the sky is the limit, while the relative limit for PM is a foot off the ground. You can argue that PM's approach is better as it's all too easy to have it functioning smoothly in its small capacity while this approach is working out less smoothly but it's fitting far bigger shoes. Most of us prefer being on board of the game with the bigger shoes, despite it's transient rougher stages.
It's a mere game of luck how that small number of rudimentary choices would match up and thus the big impact they would have in the presence or lack of such mis-matches, depending on perspective. About time that you people pipe down.
Here the adopted approach involves the indulging of the desire to do more than throw a several sided die. That's its advantage and people tend to appreciate that. It's immensely more difficult to realize from a developer's point of view and at the moment it is at an average state with its many flaws and imperfections but because of the nature of the approach the sky is the limit, while the relative limit for PM is a foot off the ground. You can argue that PM's approach is better as it's all too easy to have it functioning smoothly in its small capacity while this approach is working out less smoothly but it's fitting far bigger shoes. Most of us prefer being on board of the game with the bigger shoes, despite it's transient rougher stages.
A bit too crudely expressed, certainly arguable, and I actually may come around, but, not being left with the impression there are enough options to seriously claim that success of smaller teams doesn't pertain more to luck in those incidental mismatches than anything else.
Tricky topic :). Would be nice to continue discussing this.
I dont discuss cause I didnt understand half what you said :x My english is just average... but I'm not seeing what you want in a online football game =|
not being left with the impression there are enough options to seriously claim that success of smaller teams doesn't pertain more to luck in those incidental mismatches than anything else.
First the weaker teams have much more possibility of beating stronger teams through their tactical choices, what doesn't mean they have success.
Second, if you knew the game you would understand that your statement can't be possible. The number of the combination of total tactics and advanced tactics in very high and the random part is smaller than all other soccer manager I've knowledge.
So, in Pmanager if you know exactly what your opponent's choice (maybe some of them) will be for the next game, if you take some time to think with the players you have and the options you can choose, there are many tactical options that might actually lead you to the win. So, it definitely worth to study your opponent and to have the knowledge of your available choices.
I have faced many times in other managers the situation that with a weaker team I felt that, even with the knowledge of the my opponent’s tactical choices, every tactical choice of mine wouldn't work because of team strengh, like the situation I described above, even against not so much stronger teams (something about 3 or 4 points lower in the player’s average rating in Sokker). I have faced this situation in other soccer managers I play too.
It doesn't mean PM is a better game. As someone said already this is not important for many people, but for me this tactical possibility really fulfill what I like in a soccer manager and I miss that possibility in these managers. That’s all. Nobody wants to take any of the many merits Sokker have with this point, and neither do I. I hope you understand that.
(edited)
First the weaker teams have much more possibility of beating stronger teams through their tactical choices, what doesn't mean they have success.
Second, if you knew the game you would understand that your statement can't be possible. The number of the combination of total tactics and advanced tactics in very high and the random part is smaller than all other soccer manager I've knowledge.
So, in Pmanager if you know exactly what your opponent's choice (maybe some of them) will be for the next game, if you take some time to think with the players you have and the options you can choose, there are many tactical options that might actually lead you to the win. So, it definitely worth to study your opponent and to have the knowledge of your available choices.
I have faced many times in other managers the situation that with a weaker team I felt that, even with the knowledge of the my opponent’s tactical choices, every tactical choice of mine wouldn't work because of team strengh, like the situation I described above, even against not so much stronger teams (something about 3 or 4 points lower in the player’s average rating in Sokker). I have faced this situation in other soccer managers I play too.
It doesn't mean PM is a better game. As someone said already this is not important for many people, but for me this tactical possibility really fulfill what I like in a soccer manager and I miss that possibility in these managers. That’s all. Nobody wants to take any of the many merits Sokker have with this point, and neither do I. I hope you understand that.
(edited)
The random part is irrelevant. If there are in fact a lot of combinations then I'm inclined to agree with you.
Where I'm disagreeing with all of you is on your evaluation of the tactics in Sokker. I'm still not sure whether PM actually generates the matches like Sokker does and provides a visual, but doing that as opposed to more rudimentary calculations does make it tougher to win. I don't have a too much of a problem with that, with 17 denominations in the game you shouldn't judge by the cup. What chances the smaller teams have there pertains more so to randomness, tactical choices just can't abridge that sort of a difference and the game is not at fault. So there, like in reality, your randomness that you dislike is actually beneficial. Look at the leagues instead. You can definitely excel because of your tactical ability.
Where I'm disagreeing with all of you is on your evaluation of the tactics in Sokker. I'm still not sure whether PM actually generates the matches like Sokker does and provides a visual, but doing that as opposed to more rudimentary calculations does make it tougher to win. I don't have a too much of a problem with that, with 17 denominations in the game you shouldn't judge by the cup. What chances the smaller teams have there pertains more so to randomness, tactical choices just can't abridge that sort of a difference and the game is not at fault. So there, like in reality, your randomness that you dislike is actually beneficial. Look at the leagues instead. You can definitely excel because of your tactical ability.
I understand you, I do not dislike randomness. I said that it’s not possible to win matches due to luck because the randomness is smaller in Pmanager’s ME than all others, what is someway normal due to higher tactical possibilities. So, when smaller teams beat stronger teams, for sure they have made good tactical choices, not that they were lucky.
About the visual part, there actually is a 2D visual, but only for PM-fans and it’s very poor compared to Sokker. But, in fact, I haven’t seen any manager game with a good visual that can be compared with Sokker.
About the visual part, there actually is a 2D visual, but only for PM-fans and it’s very poor compared to Sokker. But, in fact, I haven’t seen any manager game with a good visual that can be compared with Sokker.
Okay. I disagree with the implication, smaller teams can win because of good tactical choices in Sokker. The problem with this game is is that these tactical choices only contitute the formation and that is not everything. And the fact that there is very little randomness in PM isn't necessarily something to boast about, it puts excessive weight on tactical mismatches where the game becomes more of a chess game than anything else, or something simpler than chess :).
Don't exaggerate, there is still random, but less than other games. Maybe you would like the game to be more random, you would have to see it for yourself. But I think it's very tactical and I really like it this way.
About tactics in Sokker, I think it's more important in balanced games. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I've faced situations against stronger teams before (not much stronger as I said) that I missed tactical possibilities to beat them. I concluded that every tactic choice I made wouldn't work.
(edited)
About tactics in Sokker, I think it's more important in balanced games. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I've faced situations against stronger teams before (not much stronger as I said) that I missed tactical possibilities to beat them. I concluded that every tactic choice I made wouldn't work.
(edited)
Just in general. Anyway, I don't play the game so I wouldn't know, just offering the flip side, going by the way I render info :).
This game has a strong appeal in the detail it allows you to manipulate your players. Where you are right is that the effect of allowing only that and not covering some of the other aspects well or at all ultimately managers can't do all that much beyond just positioning their players, and that minimizes what you can do tactically.
This game has a strong appeal in the detail it allows you to manipulate your players. Where you are right is that the effect of allowing only that and not covering some of the other aspects well or at all ultimately managers can't do all that much beyond just positioning their players, and that minimizes what you can do tactically.
why dont you join? Only playing you know what we're talking about =P
I'm playing another one currently, looks unique and it shares that characteristic with PM (tactics).
I play pmanager and I'm of the opinion that it pretty much ... er, sucks.
It's tactical options are not that great really. They look little more than this:
My tactic for the last game:
You play without the offside trap.
You play applying normal pressure.
You don't play in counter attack.
You play with normal tackling.
At this moment you are playing with High Balls
At this moment you are not forcing One-on-Ones
Your Goal-Keeper preferably stands inside the goal.
No preferred side
The team captain is Hamilton Reusser
The penalty taker is Hamilton Reusser
The team is going to play with Normal attitude.
It's just a "pick options from a menu" thing.
It's tactical options are not that great really. They look little more than this:
My tactic for the last game:
You play without the offside trap.
You play applying normal pressure.
You don't play in counter attack.
You play with normal tackling.
At this moment you are playing with High Balls
At this moment you are not forcing One-on-Ones
Your Goal-Keeper preferably stands inside the goal.
No preferred side
The team captain is Hamilton Reusser
The penalty taker is Hamilton Reusser
The team is going to play with Normal attitude.
It's just a "pick options from a menu" thing.