Subject: Religions and sects

@StefNihon well written!

@Mithos well that is one problem of religion. You cannot say that one part of the bible is wrong, because it is believed to be the word of god. So it has to be a) absolutely right or b) a fake.
I never met one guy that was religious and still saw that even if the source would have been the word of god that humans did write it down, part of it many years after the events happened. And that this humans could have brought something else, something human into the book.

Which is one of the things I have difficulties understanding. The Bible is the only foundation, the sole reason people belief in God?

reason? hmm...
some can say that people believe in god, because of their weakness (even in this topic somebody wrote it) or to do something with your problems or ... whatever. but i think there's no REASON people believe in god. it's not like 'oh, ok it's monday, so since today i believe in god'. faith it's god given mercy.

Aziz Yildirim did not say anything about tolerance, only that when you're a Muslim you should fight against your desires when you're gay.

I really expected a different answer, but so be it.

i am an atheist, b.s. degree in physics

my grand parents are muslim

i have read the qoran, bible, satanic bible
i have read the old testament partly
i am also interested in eastern philosophies

but i don't believe.

science is the only god that rules.

there is nothing more that can unite people from different ethnicity and religion in a given research project than the science.

as to religions, every religion was used to separate some part of the society from the other. everything was used to gain power and control, those people who had faith were abused, pushed to kill, or were killed in the name of the religion. it is sin to kill, but it is not sin to kill in the name of the one and only one god, and in the name of the religion... this is a contradiction...

Well but what often is not seen is that religion with their rules also did play a part in good things as well. Just sum up all the "sins" that were not commited just because the people had fear of some god punishing them. When the religions were created stability in a society also did mean to be stable against the other regions. Thus war and criticizing other religions was not avoidable.
Today religions should stand over that and get rid of this part of their religion because to be stable inside it would be better now not to have war against other religions (and most of them are very tolerant against other religions nowadays). I just wanted to show that side also, because I think if you would have to make a "sum" religion would have done more "good" on earth than "bad" (well seen from human ethic standpoint). Still it also has done wrong of course.

do you really think that people are not committing crimes or sins just because they are afraid of the "forgiving god"?

i would prefer a much stronger law suit, with definite and hard punishment system, that people will be afraid before even thinking of the god. this way the people will think twice, the first one because of the punishment before the death, and second time (for those who believe) because of the punishment after the death.

I would like to answer to your comments... You said that religions killed people in their name... I do not agree... I explain why... In the name of Science many people were killed (Bomb H, different gazes, many experiments...)

I think that neither Religions nor Science are bad but it is the application of them which is bad-used... And the word bad is not the fair word i think... We are humans and animals in many parts of us... When forgetting that, the use of religions and science are extremely difficult for many of us.

I disagree with the point that science is like a god.

When people are at war (for religious or non-religious reasons) they tend to grab some weapons. Spears, mustard gas, atomic bomb, etc. It's not that science gave a reason to fight a war, but science made tools to kill the enemy.
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Religion did not give reason to make wars but only few people who used some words like tools to kill the enemy ;-)

In the name of Science many people were killed (Bomb H, different gazes, many experiments...)

No, it wasn't in the name of science (why capitalize the s?), it was made possible because of science. Science itself is not a goal in life, nor in any way a God, like luuut said.

And maybe I'm going offtopic here, but what exactly are the definitions of science and religion? What are the relations between them? Do they overlap, do they contradict each other? What are your - that is, everyone's - opinions about that?
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Yes there are lots of people that do not commit sins even if nobody would see them because they are afraid of the consequences after death even today. The only problem of course is that many things have been stated as sins that did make societies more stable back 2000 years ago. I think the main reason that homosexuality was in it, was that homosexuality does not lead to children and thus not new believers for the church (so quite the same reason why catholics still are not allowed to use condoms :P). Plus it may have been a hygienic risk back then (religions like Islam were quite good at having also things in their rules that improved hygiene and thus also the survival chances of every believer). And so maybe today not all of this rules are important anymore for the functioning of societies.

But there have been many centuries where the state "a) wasn't able to" and "b) didn't needed to" control the people that much, because religion is a simple and cheap way for a state to remain orderly without having to have a controlling system that watches every step of everyone in the population. I think it is mainly the ability to think that does make humans more egocentric than other species. Thus such a thing of course was very useful for societies when they didn't had the science and organisation to control that much. And thus it did a lot of good for society and humankind as well.. :)

Well the difference between religion and science probably is that some of the religious sources still have things in their books that was needed to keep their religion and state stable against outside (other religions). Luckily most religions do not take that part too serious any longer and focus on other things like respect to all people, not being egocentric, not hurting others in any way and reaching your own personal nirvana where you are happy. For me science and religion do not really overlap but they also do not contradict. But they both are produced because of the same urge of humans: we want to know. Knowledge has lead a squishy lifeform without any natural way to protect itself to the race with most influence on earth. Because humans did understand how to use tools for reaching their goals, how to use animals and plants for their use. And now both science and religion play their part in surviving as a society although we are all egocentric individuals. Quite fascinating, isn't it? :D

I wouldn't agree with that.
Think we would be pissed off for having served something for thousands of years that has never existed :D
Most of the people would do what they haven't done yet because they thought it was morally wrong, like cheating on their wives, stealing candies from little kids or even shooting the neighbour's dog :D
That would be the hell part (except the cheating part) :D

either you choose the path to heaven or path to hell

I don't believe in Gods, but I'm busy with a Biblestudy. Maybe after that I will try to learn the Koran. But first I have to read the Bible ..

Don't know which book your refer too (I don't know the Koran) but show me where I can find 'the Hell' in the Bible as punishment, or even the existence of it. (In the Old Testament it's also never mentioned, and that is the foundation of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam as far as I know. Very strange ... Also Heaven, as most people think of it, is never mentioned in the Bible.)

Futhermore, is it Gods intention to punish his people for eternity ? The Bilble learns that he loves humanity, they are his own creation. The Bible even says God is love (1 John 4:8).

The Hell is Dark-Age fiction to scare people and make money ;)

And your joke about the American is 1 example. Probably millions want to flee those countries he came to because their lives are in danger only because of his/her sexuality. Who are we to deside someone is good or bad if he/she is in love. Live and let live, or, to religious, let God deside, you are just human.

And your example of a spider is nonsense, you know that. And it isn't an answer either, just an extreme counter example. Homosexuality mainly occurs with species who lives in social groups, like humans ;) So maybe it is just natural, as we are part of nature. It has always existed, and will always exist, everyone better get used to it. It won't go away ...

remember, it is not religion that kills people, its people that kill people. i dont think i've ever seen a statue of a religious figure punching someone to death ;)

and since it is humans that kill other humans, we should abolish humans?

For your information, the GEnesis of the Bible contains the notion of Heaven... Adam and Eve were leaving in Heaven and they expected to live for eternity... But if they ate fruit from knowledge tree, thus they could die... And they ate and were put out form Heaven... The way for every one who believe in the Holy Bible to is to come back in Heaven for enteriny.
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