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Subject: Why are u living in ur country? Do you love there? Why do you lo
yes, but his victims are still alive. So that is a difference.
Why? I can't see any difference. If you've done something to someone, then there is no difference whether he died of being old, or is still alive...
I don't think Hitler and Stalin were good for Germany and Russia ... I don't know how many Russians died because of Stalin, but there are a lot of them.
so that we might have a country called Herzigovina, in the near future? :)
very very hard
in the future maybe will have a new country with the name "Republika(Republic) Srpska" but it is very hard
Bosna is a river and Hercegovina is the south part of Bosnia and Herzegovina :)
very very hard
in the future maybe will have a new country with the name "Republika(Republic) Srpska" but it is very hard
Bosna is a river and Hercegovina is the south part of Bosnia and Herzegovina :)
Yes, he killed quite a lot of them, as well as Polish people. But still, he was doing it not for pleasure, but for ideology, for country's wellness etc. If everything went as he expected, then Russia would've been much bigger than now - including Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Belarus, Ukraine and others...
It was same with Hitler, the main idea was to expand the country. We can argue that he had sick ideology about mankind, but it's just an additional factor which was not the main cause for the 2nd WW.
And if we say, that they were monster just for the sole reason of expanding the country - then GB and its Imperialism, as well as ancient Rome, were the biggest monster-countries in the history of mankind ;-)
It was same with Hitler, the main idea was to expand the country. We can argue that he had sick ideology about mankind, but it's just an additional factor which was not the main cause for the 2nd WW.
And if we say, that they were monster just for the sole reason of expanding the country - then GB and its Imperialism, as well as ancient Rome, were the biggest monster-countries in the history of mankind ;-)
it's one thing of having some kind of pride in a statesmen who/because he sent 40 mln ppl to their death out of his paranoiac shizofrenia. It's another thing if the victims of that regime are still alive/fresh in their grave.
It's one of the reasons the russian government give to keep some of the artworks taken from germany, in the war. 'Wait a few generations. Enough tears have been shed. We can revisit that part of history later.' I think there is a good point in that.
edit: actually, I would be very careful in trying to justify the deaths under the stalin regime. Again, fighting WW2 is one (although russian command was a little bit careless with soldiers lives when they devised their grand strategy and such), but what happened in the later years, you'll have difficulty to categorise it under 'good of the nation'.
(edited)
It's one of the reasons the russian government give to keep some of the artworks taken from germany, in the war. 'Wait a few generations. Enough tears have been shed. We can revisit that part of history later.' I think there is a good point in that.
edit: actually, I would be very careful in trying to justify the deaths under the stalin regime. Again, fighting WW2 is one (although russian command was a little bit careless with soldiers lives when they devised their grand strategy and such), but what happened in the later years, you'll have difficulty to categorise it under 'good of the nation'.
(edited)
Roman Empire: fought against other armies.
Stalin: killed millions of innocent people because of his sick ideas. Just like Hitler.
Stalin: killed millions of innocent people because of his sick ideas. Just like Hitler.
Roman Empire: fought against other armies.
...and blazed up villages on their way, raped women etc as every army in these days and every agressor army nowadays and before. War makes people become animals...same like fear. You heard what happens now in Haiti? People kill for food, attack charity organisations etc.
@ChuckNorris
actually, I would be very careful in trying to justify the deaths under the stalin regime. Again, fighting WW2 is one (although russian command was a little bit careless with soldiers lives when they devised their grand strategy and such), but what happened in the later years, you'll have difficulty to categorise it under 'good of the nation'.
Yes, I'm not saying that they were doing good things. I'm a pacifist myself :-) but well...Stalin was a bit schizofrenic, which is a mental disease...that's why he killed all his officers at one point...that's why he was constantly killing people near him, because he was afraid of traitory...
But still, when we concentrate only on the reason of war...then well, they were good country leaders, with huge vision and diplomatic skills.
...and blazed up villages on their way, raped women etc as every army in these days and every agressor army nowadays and before. War makes people become animals...same like fear. You heard what happens now in Haiti? People kill for food, attack charity organisations etc.
@ChuckNorris
actually, I would be very careful in trying to justify the deaths under the stalin regime. Again, fighting WW2 is one (although russian command was a little bit careless with soldiers lives when they devised their grand strategy and such), but what happened in the later years, you'll have difficulty to categorise it under 'good of the nation'.
Yes, I'm not saying that they were doing good things. I'm a pacifist myself :-) but well...Stalin was a bit schizofrenic, which is a mental disease...that's why he killed all his officers at one point...that's why he was constantly killing people near him, because he was afraid of traitory...
But still, when we concentrate only on the reason of war...then well, they were good country leaders, with huge vision and diplomatic skills.
well, you can't exactly call a mental shizofreniac who goes on a murderous rampage 'a hero', can you? ;)
I don't know why we are discussing this, but if we're talking about what to teach little kids in history lesson: 40mln deaths is an important detail to mention. Question that immediatly rises is: if those deaths are 'for the good of the nation', do those dead people not for a fairly sizable country on their own? What about the good for their nation? Sure as hell russia isn't their country any more, it wanted to kill them :p
Second question: how bad do things threaten to become to justify that amount of dead people for your nation? And do the current conditions in russia hold anything to that statement, ie. did thing get thát much better after/because of the killings? :p
(edited)
I don't know why we are discussing this, but if we're talking about what to teach little kids in history lesson: 40mln deaths is an important detail to mention. Question that immediatly rises is: if those deaths are 'for the good of the nation', do those dead people not for a fairly sizable country on their own? What about the good for their nation? Sure as hell russia isn't their country any more, it wanted to kill them :p
Second question: how bad do things threaten to become to justify that amount of dead people for your nation? And do the current conditions in russia hold anything to that statement, ie. did thing get thát much better after/because of the killings? :p
(edited)
I don't know why we are discussing this, but if we're talking about what to teach little kids in history lesson: 40mln deaths is an important detail to mention.
of course it is :)
I don't know exactly what was the reason for all of the killings, or sending people to Siberia. Some of them were just opposition for the rulers...
We can go on and on, but I guess that we agree in the basics. They were hero's when we take into account their goals[expanding territory] and that they've been doing great in it[Hitler made a BIG mistake when he opened 2nd fron instead of finishing the 1st front problems]...BUT they were big-scale murderers, Hitler was racist and both of them have done terrible things.
Another thing is, that they were just rulers...and many people joined their army[therefore, their ideology, their idea] because they wanted to. And were feeling great in their army's uniforms, performing things that no one made them to[like raping, or killing civilians]...
of course it is :)
I don't know exactly what was the reason for all of the killings, or sending people to Siberia. Some of them were just opposition for the rulers...
We can go on and on, but I guess that we agree in the basics. They were hero's when we take into account their goals[expanding territory] and that they've been doing great in it[Hitler made a BIG mistake when he opened 2nd fron instead of finishing the 1st front problems]...BUT they were big-scale murderers, Hitler was racist and both of them have done terrible things.
Another thing is, that they were just rulers...and many people joined their army[therefore, their ideology, their idea] because they wanted to. And were feeling great in their army's uniforms, performing things that no one made them to[like raping, or killing civilians]...
btw, to answer this topic: I like living in belgium because of the cold summers and warm winters.
- The beer, the festivals, the music
- the fact that I live in a country that everybody wants to live but doesn't realise it until they actually come here (and due to the small size of it, the chance of that accidentally happening is really small :p)
- a few small boasts of being on the winning side of a major war (when talking to east europeans, this is major streed cred!);
- having a decent amount of high culture (useful when talking to french, italians or spanish)
- the fact that we have more dialects/languages per square kilometer in the world (to impress easily impressionable americans :p)
- the fact that all our major mystery serial murderers are the same person and that he is in jail now
- the fact that my country is so divers I'll never discover it in full (due to the fact that I don't speak french)
- a good schooling system. We can call a dumb person dumb and not feel pressured about it.
- not actually being british or french, but being geopolitically very near. On average, I can feel 5 times as close to my head of state than the average french or brit, but I still can live in the fantasy that my head of state is just as important as Brown or Sarkozy (actually, for belgian politicians, being belgian is a major advantage in the EU)
- not being brit or french plus having one of our local identities means that I probably never feel 'one of the many', like I would probably feel in the US or another big country. But still I can see myself as significant (see above).
- for some reason, I like Belgian bread. It's not the same abroad.
- chocolate
- good unions. Factory workers can sleep on both ears (but they don't because someone told them their lunch break will be cut short by 5 minutes)
- fairly ok television programs
- failry small and unimportant language (but is sounds mighty cool). So you can have private conversations in public when abroad
- the best swear word in the world (unofficially, but we can do a swear-off)
- the best beer in the world (officially)
- not on any tectonic fault lines
- not in dangerous weather areas
- history all around and old architecture in such abundance I don't even appreciate it anymore (I went to school in brugge and think of it as a normal city)
- all kinds of obscure sports involving a bike :) (chech out 'derny' on wikipedia)
- small minded mentality in (most) cities and backwater villages alike, which make mundane things feel important and take the pressure of needing to do big achievements to feel succesful in life. If I did something extra-ordinary, this would raise suspicion, however, so in the unlikely event of that happening, I can be assured that my environment will keep my feet on the ground. (unless someone becomes a grand slam winner, then all bets are off)
- oh yea, and for some reason we have 3 top female tennis players. So we can look all major nationalities in the eyes.
Actually, Belium ís the best country to live in, in the world. All those who say it is some scandinavian country obviously never had a short summer.
(edited)
- The beer, the festivals, the music
- the fact that I live in a country that everybody wants to live but doesn't realise it until they actually come here (and due to the small size of it, the chance of that accidentally happening is really small :p)
- a few small boasts of being on the winning side of a major war (when talking to east europeans, this is major streed cred!);
- having a decent amount of high culture (useful when talking to french, italians or spanish)
- the fact that we have more dialects/languages per square kilometer in the world (to impress easily impressionable americans :p)
- the fact that all our major mystery serial murderers are the same person and that he is in jail now
- the fact that my country is so divers I'll never discover it in full (due to the fact that I don't speak french)
- a good schooling system. We can call a dumb person dumb and not feel pressured about it.
- not actually being british or french, but being geopolitically very near. On average, I can feel 5 times as close to my head of state than the average french or brit, but I still can live in the fantasy that my head of state is just as important as Brown or Sarkozy (actually, for belgian politicians, being belgian is a major advantage in the EU)
- not being brit or french plus having one of our local identities means that I probably never feel 'one of the many', like I would probably feel in the US or another big country. But still I can see myself as significant (see above).
- for some reason, I like Belgian bread. It's not the same abroad.
- chocolate
- good unions. Factory workers can sleep on both ears (but they don't because someone told them their lunch break will be cut short by 5 minutes)
- fairly ok television programs
- failry small and unimportant language (but is sounds mighty cool). So you can have private conversations in public when abroad
- the best swear word in the world (unofficially, but we can do a swear-off)
- the best beer in the world (officially)
- not on any tectonic fault lines
- not in dangerous weather areas
- history all around and old architecture in such abundance I don't even appreciate it anymore (I went to school in brugge and think of it as a normal city)
- all kinds of obscure sports involving a bike :) (chech out 'derny' on wikipedia)
- small minded mentality in (most) cities and backwater villages alike, which make mundane things feel important and take the pressure of needing to do big achievements to feel succesful in life. If I did something extra-ordinary, this would raise suspicion, however, so in the unlikely event of that happening, I can be assured that my environment will keep my feet on the ground. (unless someone becomes a grand slam winner, then all bets are off)
- oh yea, and for some reason we have 3 top female tennis players. So we can look all major nationalities in the eyes.
Actually, Belium ís the best country to live in, in the world. All those who say it is some scandinavian country obviously never had a short summer.
(edited)
Another thing is, that they were just rulers...and many people joined their army[therefore, their ideology, their idea] because they wanted to. And were feeling great in their army's uniforms, performing things that no one made them to[like raping, or killing civilians]...
weird thing to hear from a pacifist
weird thing to hear from a pacifist
Another thing is, that they were just rulers...and many people joined their army[therefore, their ideology, their idea] because they wanted to. And were feeling great in their army's uniforms, performing things that no one made them to[like raping, or killing civilians]...
they were rather manipulated(especially in 3rd Reich), I am not afraid to say that there were much more people who wouldn´t fight.
they were rather manipulated(especially in 3rd Reich), I am not afraid to say that there were much more people who wouldn´t fight.
Why? These are facts. Facts don't depend on one's opinion...
@Hubis
Yes, some of them - definitely. There were soldiers, even in German Reich, who were punishing their soliders for raping or attacking civilians. But still, there were many who found joy in raping, killing etc...
@Hubis
Yes, some of them - definitely. There were soldiers, even in German Reich, who were punishing their soliders for raping or attacking civilians. But still, there were many who found joy in raping, killing etc...
