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Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems
Okay. You want to get out of the current sh*t and keep everything you've earned in the last 5-10 years. Well, that won't work. Either you'll stay in the middle of trouble (and go deeper) or you'll lose things. Yes, that means you'll get less money. No, you can't do anything against it, if you want to keep Greece as a functioning country.
The propaganda on the foreign media against us is unbelievable
Joseph Goebels would be very proud!
Most of you think that we work whenever we want,have salaries about 2000 € and pensions about 1500€,while we retire at the age of,i don't know,40?
The Greek people are punished for a major crime that tolerated for 35 years after democracy was restored in 1974.Incapable politicians that only cared who to do business with the multi-national companies so they would make a fortune out of the bribes,that only cared to do favours to their voters so they would be re-elected and so on
Ask miss Merkel how much money have the german companies spent on bribing greek politicians so they would won multi-billion contracts from the Greek State
Do you know about the Leopard tanks,the tilted (LOL) submarines,the Siemens C4I system and many more?The list is infinite
Greece was never a functional country and that's our fault cause we never reacted about that and now we are punished.Fair enough
BUT this measures wont do any good because they are incomplete
You can't expect to have increaced income from the VAT when you actually kill the ability of each one of us to buy things.Simply we will stop buying
And then the companies that sell things will fire personel and shut down
And more people won't have the ability to buy things and because of less money,they will pay less tax and do the math yourself,the goals from EU/IMF won't be reached
We will reach a point in which everything would be so much expencive and our salaries would be just not enough
Prices of Tokio and salaries of Bangladesh
If anyone of you thinks that this could actually work,ok i would like to come and live in your planet
I really don't care about the German money or the Dutch money,let us bankrupt
But you won't do that,the effects on the Eurozone would be tremendous
It's much easier to hold a country hostage that to let it die and lose all the money you have spent on us
But beware,especially you from smaller and weaker countries,Greece is a good exaple of what is going to happen in your countries the following years if you let the bankers and the opportunists to run the show.Don't swallow everything they serve you
Goodnight and goodluck to all of us
Joseph Goebels would be very proud!
Most of you think that we work whenever we want,have salaries about 2000 € and pensions about 1500€,while we retire at the age of,i don't know,40?
The Greek people are punished for a major crime that tolerated for 35 years after democracy was restored in 1974.Incapable politicians that only cared who to do business with the multi-national companies so they would make a fortune out of the bribes,that only cared to do favours to their voters so they would be re-elected and so on
Ask miss Merkel how much money have the german companies spent on bribing greek politicians so they would won multi-billion contracts from the Greek State
Do you know about the Leopard tanks,the tilted (LOL) submarines,the Siemens C4I system and many more?The list is infinite
Greece was never a functional country and that's our fault cause we never reacted about that and now we are punished.Fair enough
BUT this measures wont do any good because they are incomplete
You can't expect to have increaced income from the VAT when you actually kill the ability of each one of us to buy things.Simply we will stop buying
And then the companies that sell things will fire personel and shut down
And more people won't have the ability to buy things and because of less money,they will pay less tax and do the math yourself,the goals from EU/IMF won't be reached
We will reach a point in which everything would be so much expencive and our salaries would be just not enough
Prices of Tokio and salaries of Bangladesh
If anyone of you thinks that this could actually work,ok i would like to come and live in your planet
I really don't care about the German money or the Dutch money,let us bankrupt
But you won't do that,the effects on the Eurozone would be tremendous
It's much easier to hold a country hostage that to let it die and lose all the money you have spent on us
But beware,especially you from smaller and weaker countries,Greece is a good exaple of what is going to happen in your countries the following years if you let the bankers and the opportunists to run the show.Don't swallow everything they serve you
Goodnight and goodluck to all of us
ChuckNorris said "if all the currencies are devaluating against the other, which one is making profit?"
Answer GOLD and on the long run Commodities like Oil and other precious metals like silver platinum to smaller extent.
Whenever people loose faith in currencies Gold goes up.
Answer GOLD and on the long run Commodities like Oil and other precious metals like silver platinum to smaller extent.
Whenever people loose faith in currencies Gold goes up.
I really don't care about the German money or the Dutch money,let us bankrupt
But you won't do that,the effects on the Eurozone would be tremendous
It's much easier to hold a country hostage that to let it die and lose all the money you have spent on us
But beware,especially you from smaller and weaker countries,Greece is a good exaple of what is going to happen in your countries the following years if you let the bankers and the opportunists to run the show.Don't swallow everything they serve you
No, we won't let you go bankrupt, that's why the measures are there. But I forgot that all Greek had an economic degree, and they know economics much better than International Monetary Fund and the economist of European Union. What you are saying is just ... bullshit, I'm sorry to express myself like that.
And to all Greeks: please, if you know those measures would fail, what is your plan?
But you won't do that,the effects on the Eurozone would be tremendous
It's much easier to hold a country hostage that to let it die and lose all the money you have spent on us
But beware,especially you from smaller and weaker countries,Greece is a good exaple of what is going to happen in your countries the following years if you let the bankers and the opportunists to run the show.Don't swallow everything they serve you
No, we won't let you go bankrupt, that's why the measures are there. But I forgot that all Greek had an economic degree, and they know economics much better than International Monetary Fund and the economist of European Union. What you are saying is just ... bullshit, I'm sorry to express myself like that.
And to all Greeks: please, if you know those measures would fail, what is your plan?
I m glad to see the high level of dialogue in Belgium
Actually our plan is to make you and every sucker in the Eurozone loan us more money and then party with them
But i forgot,Argentina after the IMF rape,is the most wealthy country in the world or am i saying bullshit?
And to answer to you,my little troll, i said that the measures are incomplete
You know reading right?
Shrinking an economy,without a plan to help it DEVELOP and PRODUCE money,won't do any good on the long term
But you have a fancy economics degree and you know better,right
Please man,if you think that Greece after the IMF would be just the place to be,come and live here
Please consider it
Actually our plan is to make you and every sucker in the Eurozone loan us more money and then party with them
But i forgot,Argentina after the IMF rape,is the most wealthy country in the world or am i saying bullshit?
And to answer to you,my little troll, i said that the measures are incomplete
You know reading right?
Shrinking an economy,without a plan to help it DEVELOP and PRODUCE money,won't do any good on the long term
But you have a fancy economics degree and you know better,right
Please man,if you think that Greece after the IMF would be just the place to be,come and live here
Please consider it
Shrinking an economy,without a plan to help it DEVELOP and PRODUCE money,won't do any good on the long term
In the long term it will do any good: in very short term, it will seem that these measures only will create unemployment and higher taxes. But this will make Greece having an economic healthy government, which will 'produce' money as you call it. So yes, on the long term, this plan actually works. And what exactly is your proposal as I asked?
But I understand that you - as a left Greek - don't understand how economics work. This is what happens when the socialists have a total majority ;-)
(edited)
In the long term it will do any good: in very short term, it will seem that these measures only will create unemployment and higher taxes. But this will make Greece having an economic healthy government, which will 'produce' money as you call it. So yes, on the long term, this plan actually works. And what exactly is your proposal as I asked?
But I understand that you - as a left Greek - don't understand how economics work. This is what happens when the socialists have a total majority ;-)
(edited)
Explain to me,because i am a Left Greek and i obviously don't have a brain,how we will go from an economy with 4% depression into an economy with 4% developing rate (i don't know the term) in 3-4 years
You should also know that Greece does not produce anything
Agriculture and tourism are our economy's biggest sectors but high prices don't let us export our goods and stop tourists from coming
They prefer Turkey because they have lower prices
constructions are haulted because people dont have money to build and the banks dont finance construction works anymore
So,please,tell me how is this going to work
Stop irrational spending,i can understand that but eventually we will have to develop
And it's not my job to give solutions and proposals,i can only tell you the results of your proposals
And they are going to be bad
You should also know that Greece does not produce anything
Agriculture and tourism are our economy's biggest sectors but high prices don't let us export our goods and stop tourists from coming
They prefer Turkey because they have lower prices
constructions are haulted because people dont have money to build and the banks dont finance construction works anymore
So,please,tell me how is this going to work
Stop irrational spending,i can understand that but eventually we will have to develop
And it's not my job to give solutions and proposals,i can only tell you the results of your proposals
And they are going to be bad
I think you mean GDP growth ( growth of total goods and services produced in your country ). First of all, 3-4 % is a big growth, and for Western industrialized countries, that's very very hard to get.
( by the way, Greeks are left if you were being ironically )
And that 4% depression seems a little overrated, where do you got these percentages?
And 3-4 years ... Now you are really being ridiculous. You're just making up some numbers ...
( by the way, Greeks are left if you were being ironically )
And that 4% depression seems a little overrated, where do you got these percentages?
And 3-4 years ... Now you are really being ridiculous. You're just making up some numbers ...
4% depression is the estimation of the Bank of Greece for this year,officially anounced
i said 3-4 years because the measures should reduce our national debt by 11% until 2013!
Ok,you think 3-4% GDP growth is too big,lets say 1,5-2%
It's not me who is rediculus,the people who think that only by cutting salaries but not producing anything will save our economy are rediculus
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i said 3-4 years because the measures should reduce our national debt by 11% until 2013!
Ok,you think 3-4% GDP growth is too big,lets say 1,5-2%
It's not me who is rediculus,the people who think that only by cutting salaries but not producing anything will save our economy are rediculus
(edited)
i feel sorry for greece , ive been to zakynthos twice and found the people to be hard working and very welcoming
i wish the whole country well and hope to see hellas pull out of this mess !
i wish the whole country well and hope to see hellas pull out of this mess !
Rubinho I guess that you have some academic background on economics, so do I.
Let see some facts you don’t know about Greek economy (a small briefing especially for illegal immigrants).
Due to our location and thanks to the lack of measures and actions taken by the Turkish coast guard, we constantly have new illegal migrants. The results are the following
Positive Results
1) Black labor -> lower wages -> lower prices -> low inflation rate
2) Some of those migrants sell imitation products -> low inflation rate as people can buy things cheaper
Negative Results
1) Black labor -> Larger unemployment -> increase of the amount spent for unemployment beneficiaries
2) Black labor -> increased “export” of funds to foreign countries-> decreased amount available for savings (-> lower investments) and consumption -> economic depression and lower GDP
3) Tax evasion due to illegal import of imitation products
4) Higher expenses for public hospitals all those “black” employees in a case of an accident will visit the hospitals and will be treated for no money
5) Increase of the crime rates (the migrants are not the only to be blamed)
Regarding the strikes in Greece
My personal opinion is that we should keep working in order to make things better for our country.
However there is a rage and anger in Greece for a few things.
a) Against our governments for lying to us for so many years. For the corruption and bureaucracy dominating the private sector. For paying our taxes all those years and recently finding out that 8.000 people owe over 20 billion euro to the country due to tax evasion etc.
b) For all those entrepreneur, doctors, lawyers for having enormous homes, expensive cars, yachts and expensive lives and paying low taxes due to gaps in tax policies
c) For the news (local and international) for misleading us and misleading you making you believe that we work 2 hours a day, swimming all day and receiving average wages of 2000 euro
d) For our good friends in the German government. Nowadays I don’t see any reason for the existence of the EU. We have become a bureaucratic union leaded by selfish politicians.
e) For the German media and in particular for the Focus Magazine (personal point of view). They dared making [url= http://eida.matia.gr/files/2010/02/focus-aphrodite.jpg]this[/url] cover.
f) For the EU commission. Indeed the greek government lied to those but they are equally responsible for accepting those numbers.
g) For the constant pressure in order to buy more military equipment and increase our debt.
h) And finally with ourselves for being stupid voting those people. Stupid for tolerating the whole situation and sometimes being part of it as it was helpful for our own personal interests.
Let see some facts you don’t know about Greek economy (a small briefing especially for illegal immigrants).
Due to our location and thanks to the lack of measures and actions taken by the Turkish coast guard, we constantly have new illegal migrants. The results are the following
Positive Results
1) Black labor -> lower wages -> lower prices -> low inflation rate
2) Some of those migrants sell imitation products -> low inflation rate as people can buy things cheaper
Negative Results
1) Black labor -> Larger unemployment -> increase of the amount spent for unemployment beneficiaries
2) Black labor -> increased “export” of funds to foreign countries-> decreased amount available for savings (-> lower investments) and consumption -> economic depression and lower GDP
3) Tax evasion due to illegal import of imitation products
4) Higher expenses for public hospitals all those “black” employees in a case of an accident will visit the hospitals and will be treated for no money
5) Increase of the crime rates (the migrants are not the only to be blamed)
Regarding the strikes in Greece
My personal opinion is that we should keep working in order to make things better for our country.
However there is a rage and anger in Greece for a few things.
a) Against our governments for lying to us for so many years. For the corruption and bureaucracy dominating the private sector. For paying our taxes all those years and recently finding out that 8.000 people owe over 20 billion euro to the country due to tax evasion etc.
b) For all those entrepreneur, doctors, lawyers for having enormous homes, expensive cars, yachts and expensive lives and paying low taxes due to gaps in tax policies
c) For the news (local and international) for misleading us and misleading you making you believe that we work 2 hours a day, swimming all day and receiving average wages of 2000 euro
d) For our good friends in the German government. Nowadays I don’t see any reason for the existence of the EU. We have become a bureaucratic union leaded by selfish politicians.
e) For the German media and in particular for the Focus Magazine (personal point of view). They dared making [url= http://eida.matia.gr/files/2010/02/focus-aphrodite.jpg]this[/url] cover.
f) For the EU commission. Indeed the greek government lied to those but they are equally responsible for accepting those numbers.
g) For the constant pressure in order to buy more military equipment and increase our debt.
h) And finally with ourselves for being stupid voting those people. Stupid for tolerating the whole situation and sometimes being part of it as it was helpful for our own personal interests.
they know economics much better than International Monetary Fund and the economist of European Union
That isn't hard to achieve :P
Still, like I said like 5 pages ago: people here is deending this or that measure without any analysis (any knowledge) on the roots of the problem or the state of the matter, but rather repeating cheap media repports full of manichean, childish explanations (I guess it is unavoidable, given the audience, by definition, is not made of experts in every subject).
Seriously: what is the economic policy reasoning behind cutting down pensions being a good measure for Greece to take? What is the economic policy reasoning behind cutting down pensions being a bad measure for Greece to take?
And, remember: "you have problems, someone has to pay" is not an "economic policy" reasoning :P
That isn't hard to achieve :P
Still, like I said like 5 pages ago: people here is deending this or that measure without any analysis (any knowledge) on the roots of the problem or the state of the matter, but rather repeating cheap media repports full of manichean, childish explanations (I guess it is unavoidable, given the audience, by definition, is not made of experts in every subject).
Seriously: what is the economic policy reasoning behind cutting down pensions being a good measure for Greece to take? What is the economic policy reasoning behind cutting down pensions being a bad measure for Greece to take?
And, remember: "you have problems, someone has to pay" is not an "economic policy" reasoning :P
That's only 1 picture, used by 1 magazine. Think there are way more insulting picture to find. And they are somehow right. What if these countries also go bankrupted, Spain, Portugal and Italy. The UK is in the same problems as Spain already. No way all these countries can be helped like Greece.
And you should be happy to be part of the EU. I wonder how many countries would helped Greece if your country had no influence on the euro at all.
My personal opinion is that we should keep working in order to make things better for our country.
Glad to read that, it makes sense :)
I don't mean to insult you but I think point h) says it all. Almost all your points are national politics, and, as you already said, you Greek voted for these politicians.
(edited)
And you should be happy to be part of the EU. I wonder how many countries would helped Greece if your country had no influence on the euro at all.
My personal opinion is that we should keep working in order to make things better for our country.
Glad to read that, it makes sense :)
I don't mean to insult you but I think point h) says it all. Almost all your points are national politics, and, as you already said, you Greek voted for these politicians.
(edited)
Greece is technically bankrupted
That, for instance, is quite arguable. Maturity missmatches don't necesarily imply that you're unable to generate enough resources as to cover debt installments and current spending with a reasonable debt rollover. But if you get crazy maturity and interest mixes in the market, then you may still have problems with your payments.
But that's true for any country. If ANY EU (or non-EU, for that matter) was suddenly constrained to 3-month bills at 15% rates, it would enter default with certainty. What many are calling "help" or "bailout" can indeed be seen as a public intervention against a market failure at a supra-national level.
(edited)
That, for instance, is quite arguable. Maturity missmatches don't necesarily imply that you're unable to generate enough resources as to cover debt installments and current spending with a reasonable debt rollover. But if you get crazy maturity and interest mixes in the market, then you may still have problems with your payments.
But that's true for any country. If ANY EU (or non-EU, for that matter) was suddenly constrained to 3-month bills at 15% rates, it would enter default with certainty. What many are calling "help" or "bailout" can indeed be seen as a public intervention against a market failure at a supra-national level.
(edited)
well.
we strike years before this happen.
we have even trade unionist who are sold to the greek goverment.
but let me tell you a joke.
a greek MP went to other italian MP
he came to eat dinner with him. italian MP had silver spoons /forks etc
italian MP says: look the bridge over there
greek MP looks and is a bad made bridge but at least workin.
20% went straight to my pocket
The next day they go to have dinner in greece.
the greek MP had gold spoons /forks etc
then says look the bridge over there.
italian: what bridge!?
greek: 100% in my pocket.
want now a no joke?
lets say greece makes 3000 and loans 1000
our goverment guys take 5000.
is that normal ?
of course dont forget i live in greece!
i went the other day to our local town hall
they voted to give 500k € to our local culture club for a single theatre show!
wtf is that broadway or smthg?
now you can understand a small part of our corruption.
then lets see... you say that we voted these fags.
hmm ok sounds fair. the elections were without corruption? ofc not... who would believe in greece we have corruption...
after all i want to say something else.
in greece is normal in UNIVERSITIES to have parties that represent political views.
as far i know that is FORBITEN by the law at other countries.
and its NORMAL to go and join em.
after all there are proffesors that you will pass their lessons only if you have the same political views as he do.
IS THAT NORMAL?!
i can stay here all day and write one million ways that our politicals parties trying to do canvassing.
i feel like the nazi germany wouldnt have achiev a better vote-man-hunting than the system we have in greece.
want to hear more?
well by the time you keep readin you want...
in lets say ganze country? they pay more than half of their wage in tax.
but wait is that normal? yes it is. he knows that his money will come back via public services.
should i want that to my country? yesplz.
but wait. i pay the hell out and my money goes into a black hole.
ok *takes deep breaths*
*promises to myself*
" i know there is a crisis that i must strugle to come over"
and after that wat lets say i put my 2 foot into a half shoe. after that what? who promises me that even the money they will take from us wont go into pockets of our MPs?
i study to become nurse my wage will be (if im lucky enough to find a job ofc ) max 400€.
thats why you see guys on strikes. WE SIMPLY DONT CARE ANY MORE about our country as long as there are pep in goverment unable to do their job so .
a proffesor 4yrs ago showed an image. a well payed handsome with laptop in his hand /mobile phone in a costume 30yrs old goin out of country while a ragamuffin was just arrivin in greece.
this is the situation . i wont acept it. nothx i will go to work even in ganza country /care away from here. at least i know that i will miss the good weather *sniff*
after all where is the guy that is cold with numbers? im pretty sure that if you would go and work for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for 400 euro MAX and IF they pay you../ you could be still cold with numbers wellyou mate have a serious problem with your mind....
we strike years before this happen.
we have even trade unionist who are sold to the greek goverment.
but let me tell you a joke.
a greek MP went to other italian MP
he came to eat dinner with him. italian MP had silver spoons /forks etc
italian MP says: look the bridge over there
greek MP looks and is a bad made bridge but at least workin.
20% went straight to my pocket
The next day they go to have dinner in greece.
the greek MP had gold spoons /forks etc
then says look the bridge over there.
italian: what bridge!?
greek: 100% in my pocket.
want now a no joke?
lets say greece makes 3000 and loans 1000
our goverment guys take 5000.
is that normal ?
of course dont forget i live in greece!
i went the other day to our local town hall
they voted to give 500k € to our local culture club for a single theatre show!
wtf is that broadway or smthg?
now you can understand a small part of our corruption.
then lets see... you say that we voted these fags.
hmm ok sounds fair. the elections were without corruption? ofc not... who would believe in greece we have corruption...
after all i want to say something else.
in greece is normal in UNIVERSITIES to have parties that represent political views.
as far i know that is FORBITEN by the law at other countries.
and its NORMAL to go and join em.
after all there are proffesors that you will pass their lessons only if you have the same political views as he do.
IS THAT NORMAL?!
i can stay here all day and write one million ways that our politicals parties trying to do canvassing.
i feel like the nazi germany wouldnt have achiev a better vote-man-hunting than the system we have in greece.
want to hear more?
well by the time you keep readin you want...
in lets say ganze country? they pay more than half of their wage in tax.
but wait is that normal? yes it is. he knows that his money will come back via public services.
should i want that to my country? yesplz.
but wait. i pay the hell out and my money goes into a black hole.
ok *takes deep breaths*
*promises to myself*
" i know there is a crisis that i must strugle to come over"
and after that wat lets say i put my 2 foot into a half shoe. after that what? who promises me that even the money they will take from us wont go into pockets of our MPs?
i study to become nurse my wage will be (if im lucky enough to find a job ofc ) max 400€.
thats why you see guys on strikes. WE SIMPLY DONT CARE ANY MORE about our country as long as there are pep in goverment unable to do their job so .
a proffesor 4yrs ago showed an image. a well payed handsome with laptop in his hand /mobile phone in a costume 30yrs old goin out of country while a ragamuffin was just arrivin in greece.
this is the situation . i wont acept it. nothx i will go to work even in ganza country /care away from here. at least i know that i will miss the good weather *sniff*
after all where is the guy that is cold with numbers? im pretty sure that if you would go and work for 12 hours a day 6 days a week for 400 euro MAX and IF they pay you../ you could be still cold with numbers wellyou mate have a serious problem with your mind....
after all someone talked about democracy. IF you want to know WHAT democracy means go read the politics of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle
and you will see that we DONT have democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_%28Aristotle%29
(edited)
and you will see that we DONT have democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_%28Aristotle%29
(edited)