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Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems
after all someone talked about democracy. IF you want to know WHAT democracy means go read the politics of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle
and you will see that we DONT have democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_%28Aristotle%29
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and you will see that we DONT have democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_%28Aristotle%29
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That's only 1 picture, used by 1 magazine
Not that simple
It's 1 picture,used by 1 magazine,published in 1 country that has earned billions of Euros by military and other contracts given by the Greek Goverment,not always in the most legal way
Talking about hypocricy
Not that simple
It's 1 picture,used by 1 magazine,published in 1 country that has earned billions of Euros by military and other contracts given by the Greek Goverment,not always in the most legal way
Talking about hypocricy
Hungary was in a similar situation 1.5 years ago; we also didn't have many chance. The Hungarian wages are lower than the Greek ones, and we were in a worse economical position than Greece for years (now Hungary stands way better...). We have corrupt politicians too, I could say many cases which are ridiculous (like the building of the line 4 subway in Budapest...).
Now Greece have to do what Hungary had to do in 2008 and 2009. Yes, it'll hurt you. No, you can't escape it. (and I have to say again... my wage is 250 euro per month and I don't work less than you, but I still think that the mistakes have to be corrected, even if it's causing many troubles)
Now Greece have to do what Hungary had to do in 2008 and 2009. Yes, it'll hurt you. No, you can't escape it. (and I have to say again... my wage is 250 euro per month and I don't work less than you, but I still think that the mistakes have to be corrected, even if it's causing many troubles)
The point H says a lot... not the whole truth!
In 2005 Greece spent 4,5% of the GDP on military equipment programms (and that the know budget because each and every country have some secret accounts).
If Euro and Nato could guarantee our safety we could decrease those expenses. However this would have a negative effect on the german military industry (main supplier).
Moreover we spend hundreds of millions in coast guard and board patrols in order to prevent illegal entrance of migrants, drugs, cigars and so on. Things could be easier if the turkish side was more helpful but that a totally another subject.
Many german (mostly) multinational companies bribed our politician in order to sell their overpriced equipment.
The german media viciously attacked Greece for their own political reasons. All those years brits, french and germans are making fortunes by exhibiting ancient artifacts and statues stolen from Greece.
And now something you may not know. During the WWII Greece suffered heavy loses in people, structures and economy. We were even forced by the german government to give them a loan of 1,5 dillion dracmas in 1943 ($200+ million US in 1944) WITHOUT interest rate!!! The contract was signed by Germany and Italy without signature of Greece as it was announced to us 9 days after it. After the end of WWII Germany didn't accept that it was illegal (on the contrary Poland and Yugoslavia took them back). Those money were given for supplies of the German forces in Middle East. They even didn't pay for WWII war reparations.
In November 2009 I visited Amsterdam. I know that AMS is thought to be expensive, however I see similar prices in many goods as in Greece while the average wage and pension are significantly lower
In 2005 Greece spent 4,5% of the GDP on military equipment programms (and that the know budget because each and every country have some secret accounts).
If Euro and Nato could guarantee our safety we could decrease those expenses. However this would have a negative effect on the german military industry (main supplier).
Moreover we spend hundreds of millions in coast guard and board patrols in order to prevent illegal entrance of migrants, drugs, cigars and so on. Things could be easier if the turkish side was more helpful but that a totally another subject.
Many german (mostly) multinational companies bribed our politician in order to sell their overpriced equipment.
The german media viciously attacked Greece for their own political reasons. All those years brits, french and germans are making fortunes by exhibiting ancient artifacts and statues stolen from Greece.
And now something you may not know. During the WWII Greece suffered heavy loses in people, structures and economy. We were even forced by the german government to give them a loan of 1,5 dillion dracmas in 1943 ($200+ million US in 1944) WITHOUT interest rate!!! The contract was signed by Germany and Italy without signature of Greece as it was announced to us 9 days after it. After the end of WWII Germany didn't accept that it was illegal (on the contrary Poland and Yugoslavia took them back). Those money were given for supplies of the German forces in Middle East. They even didn't pay for WWII war reparations.
In November 2009 I visited Amsterdam. I know that AMS is thought to be expensive, however I see similar prices in many goods as in Greece while the average wage and pension are significantly lower
I certainly don't have the knowledge of what's happening in Greece at the moment. I don't know the background very well and I haven't follow the news that regularily.
But there's one thing I don't understand, and that's why you're striking.
Your economy is down, European countries try to help with lending money even though some of them - or almost all of them - have financial problems themselves.
And for us it looks like a joke if we loan money (I think Switzerland has to pay 480 million euros (it's not sure yet)) and we're seeing that people in Greece are striking and not even trying to get out of this serious problem.
Sure, I completely agree with you, there must have been huge mistakes made by the government previously. There might have been corruption too.
BUT, right now everything that happened months and years ago can't be undone, the thing is to try to get out this misery. And striking is surely (imo) not the right thing to do. What do you expect of the strikes?
Those who have money won't have a big problem, they're able to survive if they cut their expenses and keep on living on a lower standard. The (corrupt) politicians will have money enough aswell. Who's suffering from those strikes? Most likely the people who have no money and who don't earn enough.
I can understand that you guys would like that those who're responsible for the whole mess should pay the price for it, but unfortunately that's impossible!
And so far I haven't heard of a better suggestion how to handle this problem than to accept the points above (think posted by Rubinho).
And I don't wanna take part in discussion what's good or what has to be done etc, I'm just not informed enough to talk about this, I just cannot understand why you kinda refuse the help of most European countries by this imo stupid strike.
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But there's one thing I don't understand, and that's why you're striking.
Your economy is down, European countries try to help with lending money even though some of them - or almost all of them - have financial problems themselves.
And for us it looks like a joke if we loan money (I think Switzerland has to pay 480 million euros (it's not sure yet)) and we're seeing that people in Greece are striking and not even trying to get out of this serious problem.
Sure, I completely agree with you, there must have been huge mistakes made by the government previously. There might have been corruption too.
BUT, right now everything that happened months and years ago can't be undone, the thing is to try to get out this misery. And striking is surely (imo) not the right thing to do. What do you expect of the strikes?
Those who have money won't have a big problem, they're able to survive if they cut their expenses and keep on living on a lower standard. The (corrupt) politicians will have money enough aswell. Who's suffering from those strikes? Most likely the people who have no money and who don't earn enough.
I can understand that you guys would like that those who're responsible for the whole mess should pay the price for it, but unfortunately that's impossible!
And so far I haven't heard of a better suggestion how to handle this problem than to accept the points above (think posted by Rubinho).
And I don't wanna take part in discussion what's good or what has to be done etc, I'm just not informed enough to talk about this, I just cannot understand why you kinda refuse the help of most European countries by this imo stupid strike.
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I can understand that you guys would like that those who're responsible for the whole mess should pay the price for it, but unfortunately that's impossible!
yeah thats the reason of the strike...
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Ok ... but, can anybody who's striking come up with a better idea to improve the Greek economy again? I strongly doubt ...
And do the ones who're responsible - or who you think are responsible ;-) - have to suffer or pay the price or anything like that if you strike? I strongly doubt ...
And for those reasons I personally only see that this strike could be the sentence of death for Greece ...
And do the ones who're responsible - or who you think are responsible ;-) - have to suffer or pay the price or anything like that if you strike? I strongly doubt ...
And for those reasons I personally only see that this strike could be the sentence of death for Greece ...
exactly
In my country every person from 5 600 000 people should give to Greece 150 eur!
But we will say strictly NO!
(NO - 87%, YES - 6%, dont care - 7%)
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In my country every person from 5 600 000 people should give to Greece 150 eur!
But we will say strictly NO!
(NO - 87%, YES - 6%, dont care - 7%)
(edited)
but wait. last election we had one saying" we dont have money we dont have hope only if we strugle as nation we can bypass this."
the other says " there are money there is hope we will protect low wages population etc."
that was on september. now you can see how much he wants to protect low wages population. ;D
people voted him, trust him but greek are to stupid to see the difference.
we like to hear lies ;D
and thats the reason /leaveurcountry
so they strike cause they were betrayed once more. but as i said they arent fed up with lies thats why this happens.
Yes, exactly and don't forget that in the European Monetary Union everyone should fill the maastricht criterias, not just those countries who want to enter (nowadays, if I know well (I'm not sure about it), only Luxemburg fill it, but since Germany got a punishment in the begining of the decade nobody get another one). So those countries who got in trouble have to cut down from their outgoings, because they instabilize Euro. In Greece the worst you can do is to demonstrate, because it's decrease your incomes from turistic and your goverment can't do anything else to prevent state bankruptcy.
I understand you, and I kinda understand that most people voted for him. Most people who vote aren't informed enough.
But I still see no reason to strike. Maybe I cannot see it because in Switzerland we don't have the mentality to strike, could be that someone from France might understand you pretty well ;-)
For me your strike is destroying your economy and those who strike can't come up with a better idea what Greece should do. So imo the strike is totally unnecessary.
But I still see no reason to strike. Maybe I cannot see it because in Switzerland we don't have the mentality to strike, could be that someone from France might understand you pretty well ;-)
For me your strike is destroying your economy and those who strike can't come up with a better idea what Greece should do. So imo the strike is totally unnecessary.
"we like to hear lies"
It's not just true for greeks, it's true for the whole world. One bad rule of the democracy that those win the elections, who promise the most.
It's not just true for greeks, it's true for the whole world. One bad rule of the democracy that those win the elections, who promise the most.
I did! ;-)
But I didn't have anything to comment on.
But I didn't have anything to comment on.
Well, last time it happened in Hungary, we had some serious riots. But nothing has changed until the next election - it was 3 weeks ago. Do you think you can keep everything you have now and get out of the current situation? I'm quite sure it's impossible.