Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems

Well, the average income tells you how much you can spend. High average income means "a lot to spend". Low average income means "a little to spend". So, when we rank Greece in terms of how much they can spend per capita, they are around 30th place, meaning that using the word "poverty" when describing Greece is an insult to all the countries below 30th place, unless you consider being poor when you're not among top 10% of the world population by wealth. So, me, as a Croatian with 1/3 of Greek average income to spend, am insulted when you claim that the Greek or the Italians are threatened by poverty.

One should take notice that PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) currencies are the only reliable basis to compare countries.

I will lik to tell you a tale about statistics:
once in a country statstic said people eat a chicken for head..
if my neighbour eat 2 chickens, how many chicken will I eat?

You have to work this out with your neighbour who ate your chicken and not beg/borrow from a far away third party in order to avoid working out different relations with your local neighbour.

no between countries, them works with balance of power and convenience, not other funny fairy tales..

Well, in the end, it all comes down to people. People we choose sit down together and arrange something for everyone. You can always candidate yourself and make a change.

Is funny that I agree on it..
I will really like if sweden or norway will rules us..
But remember that control italians is maybe possible, but it will be everytime useless..

Yes, I see that you want someone else to take responsibility for your life but stil keep the aspects that you like. There is a saying we have in Croatia for girls with such attitude. "She wants to have sex but that the penis doesn't go inside."

One should take notice that PPP (Purchasing Power Parity) currencies are the only reliable basis to compare countries.

Check out the link I posted. All figures are purchasing power parity in current international dollars.

It was not to you, I just wanted to say this because some people just put figures here in US dollars or euro which is like comparing apples with lemons.

The fact is the Greek government lied about your unhealthy financial and economic situation. You - I mean all the Greeks here - are responsible for that, if you like it or not, I don't care.

Greece is not economically significant ( sorry for them ), it's not really the issue today, whatever the referendum result they are offroad for a while... The truth is that Italy, Spain, France and many other european country, we will face the same issue in short term. Look at the Italian rates today, more than 6% for 10y bonds, if things go on ( and nothing can change that ) Italy will explode in less than one year. And Italy is not Greece, damage will be worldwide.
Even Germany will be severely hit , exportation are mainly in Europe, that's why they are acting to stabilize the situation, but they will fail.

about the Greek referendum : if the result is NO, it will accelerate the crisis in the rest of the euro zone. Cut off on Greek Debt will be 100 % ( compared to the 50 % on the private debt today, which represent less than 30 % cut off on the total debt ) , which mean the need to recapitalize the bank will be extremly higher. I let you imagine what will happen, that's why Merkel and Sarkozy are angry/worried about the referendum.
But the lie would be to say that it's all Greek fault, and I suppose that would be the excuse when the euro zone will explode.
The truth is that, even before the news about the referendum, Italy bond rates were dramatically increasing => nothing was solved.
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I will answer only to this, as I find the rest of posting not so interesting:

Well, in the end, it all comes down to people.

no!
It will be true if we were a democracy, so everyone of us (italian, greek or croatian) can share a part of responsability for debt or economics choose...

But, unfortunately, it's not like that, we're no more a democracy from a long time and so the very big majority of people doesn't have any kind of choice..
(I mean a real choice, we have a lot of parties but .. in facts..)

Of course we share a part of responsability, all of us. We all benefited from irresponsible budget by voting for irresponsible leaders.
That's a bit too easy to say " there is no real democracy" when you have the possibility to vote differently, AND that's the case in Italy, AND that's the case in France.
And what we have today ? Berlusconi and Sarkozy... LOL. Who we should blame here ?

Last point : we are still free to go in the road and shout, and today in Italy and France, everyone is quiet. But trust me, when the truth and the situation will be clear, there will be millions of people demonstrating, but it will be too late.

One issue is that medias are not doing their job correctly, we are at the level 0 of information in global medias ( information is really different in specialized medias )
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That's just plain complaining. It's easy to point the finger and thus has no value. Offer something better if you have.

This system works where people are normal. Where they are not, it doesn't work and then people complain about the system instead of themselves. There is no system that will work when it has to deal with the people where majority is either lazy or greedy.

There's nothing principally wrong with the democratic capitalism system. It is set on a good basis and it is able to evolve. The system is currently shaken by human factor (read: lack of financial discipline in some countries) but it will shake it off and continue its evolution the way it already did many times. Revolution that you desire always brings more harm than benefits. Repay your debts and don't borrow more than you can. Simple as that.

It's not a pleasant fact that leaders of nations can mortgage the entire future of their people but it's stil a fact that we all need to live with. I would also rather inherit wealth from my parents but I accept the fact that it might be zero. At least they were brave enough to have me. That's what's most important.

You cannot live in a country that's built roads, established institutions and offers various benefits to their citizens and then deny you have anything to do with the fact that this country also has debt it used also to build all that. If a time comes to make cost cutting in order to survive, then all citizens should accept this. We all have to accept we live in a community in which every single person is actually proportionally liable and responsible regardless of whether we like who represents us or not. If you don't like it, you can always candidate yourself in the elections or choose to live in another country.

That's a bit too easy to say " there is no real democracy" when you have the possibility to vote differently, AND that's the case in Italy, AND that's the case in France.

In Italy we had not a real different choice.
opposition to Berlusconi is a bit different in appearance, but the politics in economy and social choice they promote is THE SAME!!!

And what we have today ? Berlusconi and Sarkozy... LOL. Who we should blame here ?

Our lack of democracy that permit such criminal to get premier.
Our lack of legality that permit us to be ruled by mafias
Our lack of sovranity that does not permit us to do choices different than what our colonist (USA) tell us to do.
Our lack of education and civilian knowledge that does not allow us to understand how they are rubbing us
Our lack of pluralism in information and tv, tha make us always think that there are not other chances (or that those are worst than being robbed)


All those are thing democracy should defend us from, but our democracy is still immature and without any weapon against them..
So, I ain't gonna pay all by myself for something I could not stop!

Revolution that you desire always brings more harm than benefits.

I do not want any kind of revolution.
I think a country can / must decide by itself what to do.
I want my country not to pay-back public debt..

You cannot live in a country that's built roads, established institutions and offers various benefits to their citizens and then deny you have anything to do with the fact that this country also has debt it used also to build all that.

But I can live in a country where billions of euro were stolen.. in a lot of fantastic ways..
And so I do not want to pay for them no more!
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I do not want any kind of revolution.
I think a country can / must decide by itself what to do.
I want my country not to pay-back public debt..

You're like a 5-year-old thumping your feet to the ground because you don't want to eat your spinach. You borrow something - you give it back. Otherwise it is not called borrowing but stealing. Nobody would borrow you anything if he didn't know you have something to return and nobody will do business with you if you don't keep your word. Grow up.

But I can live in a country where billions of euro were stolen.. in a lot of fantastic ways..
And so I do not want to pay for them no more!

I told you already. You are free to leave elsewhere. OK, you have mafia and corrupted politicians but you also have canzona, pizza, Michelangelo, great shoes etc.. You can't take just the good sides of your country and be proud of it and renounce the bad sides and say that's got nothing to do with me. That's just weak.

because you eat pizza and have great shoes, you have to accept corrupted politicians ?
sorry but that's ridiculous.

No, but you cannot say: we have corrupted politicians, so we won't pay our debt back. Your debt has been made, and must be repaid.

lol, we already know that we will never pay back our debt. That's just impossible.
Just look at Italy in coming weeks and months, you will have a Greece-like situation, and France comes just after...
Heavy Debt -> Bonds rate increasing -> Debt always bigger -> Bonds rate always increasing -> default. It's already on-going.
The only thing that could save us is a miracle economical growth, like 3.5 % or more during several years, but what we have today is recession.
Greece will not pay back his debt, neither Italy or France, you have just to open your eyes.
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today, I make format of one PC and forgot to backup data :-(. Of course I will told to owner of PC that his hard drive collapsed... so sorry, you should have backups (he doesnt have, of course).
It is not nice, I shame, but now I feel like Greek cos I am using strategy.... it is not my guilty, it is because of bad system :-)