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Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems
Now, what happens is that banks come up with the higher interest. I understand. But when the country, that couldn't be trusted in the first place, then can not repay their loans, other governments give the money to the bank? So high interest, so high income, but no risk, taxpayers in other countries will cover. Easy way of making money there...
That's why eventually, the country (that couldn't be trusted) has to repay the other countries. Otherwise, there is no responsibility for the countries and its politicians. "If you can't pay back your debt, we'll do that for you."
In case of Italy: Italy has proved to be reliable in the past. They have high debts, but if the interest rate doesn't become too high, there's no problem whatsoever.
It's a matter of trust in Italy. There is not a lot of it. Italy is responsible for that.
So, banks create the problem here. If Italy goes bust because of the problem created by the banks, the banks should be the ones to suffer the consequences.
The banks don't determine the interest rate alone. It's the market who determines it. So technically, you're asking the market to pay for the non-government of Italy.
Ohw and the power of credit rate agencies is way too big... Now France is the next victim, who follows....
Agree.
That's why eventually, the country (that couldn't be trusted) has to repay the other countries. Otherwise, there is no responsibility for the countries and its politicians. "If you can't pay back your debt, we'll do that for you."
In case of Italy: Italy has proved to be reliable in the past. They have high debts, but if the interest rate doesn't become too high, there's no problem whatsoever.
It's a matter of trust in Italy. There is not a lot of it. Italy is responsible for that.
So, banks create the problem here. If Italy goes bust because of the problem created by the banks, the banks should be the ones to suffer the consequences.
The banks don't determine the interest rate alone. It's the market who determines it. So technically, you're asking the market to pay for the non-government of Italy.
Ohw and the power of credit rate agencies is way too big... Now France is the next victim, who follows....
Agree.
what countries, these which are worst ones :-)
Then the others will repair their financial system.... so why you are in top worst countries ?
Then the others will repair their financial system.... so why you are in top worst countries ?
which countries have primary surpluses?
almost non
Which countries are in big problems now? Countries with big debt. Germany, Finland, Netherlands, Slovakia, Slovenia, ... No big problems there.
almost non
Which countries are in big problems now? Countries with big debt. Germany, Finland, Netherlands, Slovakia, Slovenia, ... No big problems there.
Look on USA... there is good senator Ron Paul... he want to stop making money and return back to real money, money with gold, so little inflation and failures of system. But maybe worse condition for life, less luxury and more responsibility. Not every one will have nice house there :-)
but... who vote for him, just small group of wise people, so why ???
As I said, democracy is crap....
but... who vote for him, just small group of wise people, so why ???
As I said, democracy is crap....
Why Italy is not Greece:
(and why I think Italy can not go to bancrupcy now)
- Average maturity of Italy bonds are much longer as in Greek case. So currently higher interests will make big problem for country later, not now.
ehm..
a bigger problem lead to simpler solution?
- Italy is big economy, income from tax are nice and can solve Italian problems even with higher interests of current bonds.
LOL, bigger economy what mean? If Italy gain more in taxes has to give more in services, the balance rest equal.
But LOL again. with longer average maturity of bond and this interests we will unable to payback the debt . (remember 1900billioneuro)
- It is not just state debts, maybe 50% is from private sector so government has diversified risk.
no it is ALL public debt, private in Italy has no debt and a good average save..
- Italy has various resources of wealth, and 4th biggest storage of gold on the world.
and if we sold those gold we can easily fail...
It's like to say market:"we sell what we have, pay what we can. The rest is lost"
And you are studing economy???
Again I warn you, what are you talking about? Study it better!
But yes, I think they are after USA and Japaneses country with biggest debt, so they just have to turn around in domestic policy and start solving their problems.
(and why I think Italy can not go to bancrupcy now)
- Average maturity of Italy bonds are much longer as in Greek case. So currently higher interests will make big problem for country later, not now.
ehm..
a bigger problem lead to simpler solution?
- Italy is big economy, income from tax are nice and can solve Italian problems even with higher interests of current bonds.
LOL, bigger economy what mean? If Italy gain more in taxes has to give more in services, the balance rest equal.
But LOL again. with longer average maturity of bond and this interests we will unable to payback the debt . (remember 1900billioneuro)
- It is not just state debts, maybe 50% is from private sector so government has diversified risk.
no it is ALL public debt, private in Italy has no debt and a good average save..
- Italy has various resources of wealth, and 4th biggest storage of gold on the world.
and if we sold those gold we can easily fail...
It's like to say market:"we sell what we have, pay what we can. The rest is lost"
And you are studing economy???
Again I warn you, what are you talking about? Study it better!
But yes, I think they are after USA and Japaneses country with biggest debt, so they just have to turn around in domestic policy and start solving their problems.
As I said, democracy is crap....
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
Imagine the markets to stop lending to them ...
Just being who will be the next target of speculators
Just being who will be the next target of speculators
Belgium is a candidate. And in fact, Belgium deserves it (although I do not wish it of course).
I absolutely agree with your point of view. Not returning your debt with intention is actually stealing. If you borrow money and then you decide not to return it, you are a thief. You can always fall into problems and have a hard time returning the money, but then you are in a position to be humble and beg for some debt to be forgiven. But you simply cannot just arrogantly say that you will not return it. That's called stealing.
LOL,
so many things can be called stealing..
but hey! the point is that in politics and economics the rule are: "who cares?"
Who win wars take the best from losers,
who has money buy the best from poors,
who lend money take unmoral interests from who's in needing
who pay your politician run your country against its people
it's stealing to?
but look, nobody seems to care,
so in real world any moral value is good to personal believing and nothing more!
LOL,
so many things can be called stealing..
but hey! the point is that in politics and economics the rule are: "who cares?"
Who win wars take the best from losers,
who has money buy the best from poors,
who lend money take unmoral interests from who's in needing
who pay your politician run your country against its people
it's stealing to?
but look, nobody seems to care,
so in real world any moral value is good to personal believing and nothing more!
As I said, democracy is crap....
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
The bipartisan Western type representative democracy is crap...
The Real Democracy where Citizens decides on major issues its better...
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
The bipartisan Western type representative democracy is crap...
The Real Democracy where Citizens decides on major issues its better...
so many things can be called stealing..
Yes, those that are actually stealing.
but hey! the point is that in politics and economics the rule are: "who cares?"
Different people - different rules and different cares.
But for thiefs, yes, I agree their rule is "who cares?".
Who win wars take the best from losers,
Not true. Some give Marshall plans even to the worst losers.
who has money buy the best from poors,
Nobody buys what is not offered.
who lend money take unmoral interests from who's in needing
People in need ask for mercy not loan and give back gratitude and not interest. Those that ask for a loan are always aware of the interest.
who pay your politician run your country against its people
Choose better or candidate yourself if you are the best.
but look, nobody seems to care,
Well, I do and I know a few.
so in real world any moral value is good to personal believing and nothing more!
Only to those who think morality is relative so that they are able to design it according to their own moral beliefs, ability and willingness.
(edited)
Yes, those that are actually stealing.
but hey! the point is that in politics and economics the rule are: "who cares?"
Different people - different rules and different cares.
But for thiefs, yes, I agree their rule is "who cares?".
Who win wars take the best from losers,
Not true. Some give Marshall plans even to the worst losers.
who has money buy the best from poors,
Nobody buys what is not offered.
who lend money take unmoral interests from who's in needing
People in need ask for mercy not loan and give back gratitude and not interest. Those that ask for a loan are always aware of the interest.
who pay your politician run your country against its people
Choose better or candidate yourself if you are the best.
but look, nobody seems to care,
Well, I do and I know a few.
so in real world any moral value is good to personal believing and nothing more!
Only to those who think morality is relative so that they are able to design it according to their own moral beliefs, ability and willingness.
(edited)
I am not studying, I studied, I am old guy :-).
- Average maturity of Italy bonds are much longer as in Greek case. So currently higher interests will make big problem for country later, not now.
ehm..
a bigger problem lead to simpler solution?
I just make comparison to Greece. Structure of your debt is better.
- Italy is big economy, income from tax are nice and can solve Italian problems even with higher interests of current bonds.
Again, I made comparison to Greece. Maybe it is funny for you, but yes you country has large economy and more stable as Greece.
- Italy has various resources of wealth, and 4th biggest storage of gold on the world.
and if we sold those gold we can easily fail...
No, but you have one more chance when you fall down too deep, you can sold it and then make structural reforms.
Greeks just dont have enough time and of course, they would rather go to bankruptcy than sold something :-)
- Average maturity of Italy bonds are much longer as in Greek case. So currently higher interests will make big problem for country later, not now.
ehm..
a bigger problem lead to simpler solution?
I just make comparison to Greece. Structure of your debt is better.
- Italy is big economy, income from tax are nice and can solve Italian problems even with higher interests of current bonds.
Again, I made comparison to Greece. Maybe it is funny for you, but yes you country has large economy and more stable as Greece.
- Italy has various resources of wealth, and 4th biggest storage of gold on the world.
and if we sold those gold we can easily fail...
No, but you have one more chance when you fall down too deep, you can sold it and then make structural reforms.
Greeks just dont have enough time and of course, they would rather go to bankruptcy than sold something :-)
As I said, democracy is crap....
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
I told somewhere that I would limited right for voting (some minimal requirements, for example, you must have job, you must have at least secondary school, you must have no crime log in last 5 years or something like this).... yes it is then less freedom, but freedom in government based on democracy is crap :-)
Agreed. But the other systems are even worse. That's why I defend the crap.
I told somewhere that I would limited right for voting (some minimal requirements, for example, you must have job, you must have at least secondary school, you must have no crime log in last 5 years or something like this).... yes it is then less freedom, but freedom in government based on democracy is crap :-)
I think you are kiddin' me.
I will stop this "awesome" discussion about moral value in politics.
I think it would be more interesting to discuss the verginity of a pornostar..
I will stop this "awesome" discussion about moral value in politics.
I think it would be more interesting to discuss the verginity of a pornostar..
I just make comparison to Greece. Structure of your debt is better.
Our debt is not possible to be paid.
this fact is not a question (nobody ask Italy to pay it back, the just want us to make debt to pay debt forever..)
Our debt is longer lifed than greece (so when in this days we pay it at 6..8% a 5 years bond we condemn ourself in 5 years to pay it at usurer price..)
Our starting problem was a speculation sended from far (USA/chinas speculation to avoid a USA debt crisis need som other country to hit) that found us without a serious government
Greece problem was a public deficit (not debt..) now they have even hte debt problem (wonderful EU solution is always to enslave a country)
Again, I made comparison to Greece. Maybe it is funny for you, but yes you country has large economy and more stable as Greece.
our ecvonomy is bigger and stronger than grece, but financial crisis will kill it the same way!
the dimension does not mean a bigger chance to solve problems that can't be solved the way we are running!
We need to feed the domestic demand, not to get poorer and fail..
Our debt is not possible to be paid.
this fact is not a question (nobody ask Italy to pay it back, the just want us to make debt to pay debt forever..)
Our debt is longer lifed than greece (so when in this days we pay it at 6..8% a 5 years bond we condemn ourself in 5 years to pay it at usurer price..)
Our starting problem was a speculation sended from far (USA/chinas speculation to avoid a USA debt crisis need som other country to hit) that found us without a serious government
Greece problem was a public deficit (not debt..) now they have even hte debt problem (wonderful EU solution is always to enslave a country)
Again, I made comparison to Greece. Maybe it is funny for you, but yes you country has large economy and more stable as Greece.
our ecvonomy is bigger and stronger than grece, but financial crisis will kill it the same way!
the dimension does not mean a bigger chance to solve problems that can't be solved the way we are running!
We need to feed the domestic demand, not to get poorer and fail..
I am not kidding you but I understand why you might think so. I know many people that are immoral and are able to not feel guilty about it because they see all people as immoral. Such people usually accuse me of lying and kidding when I speak about my moral values.
Politician is an occupation as any else. You can have a corrupted postman just as you can have a corrupted politician. Corruption is a matter of family upbringing and personal choices, not occupation. OK, pornostar is an exception to that but I don't consider that a real occupation. More like a legalisation of personal moral colapse.
Stil, it is true that you can prostitutize yourself in any occupation but that is a matter of personal choice and not all people take the same choices.
Politician is an occupation as any else. You can have a corrupted postman just as you can have a corrupted politician. Corruption is a matter of family upbringing and personal choices, not occupation. OK, pornostar is an exception to that but I don't consider that a real occupation. More like a legalisation of personal moral colapse.
Stil, it is true that you can prostitutize yourself in any occupation but that is a matter of personal choice and not all people take the same choices.