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Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems
That is not really an issue to look for where the PIGS are. The Problem is to interpret the bar chart. You always have to be extremely careful and fully understand it. (I most certainly do not understand it fully as well, like women. But I kinda have an idea)
Do not misunderstand me, the overall tax rate in Europe is higher than in the US. But why is that so?
One main reason is:
That the quality of health care, child care, the outpay of pensions, money for senior care, the money spend for university education, paid sick, parental leave and so on is not part of the Tax percentage rate for the US and pretty much everyone outside Europe. That is also all a part of that.
Furthermore the debt of private households in the US is higher than in the Eurozone (not writing about GB intentionally), that has to have a reason. By the way while under Obama the total tax revenue as percentage to GDP increased, the private debts decreased slightly. It is not possible to make assumptions here but if I had the full informations I would love to look into it.
There is more to interpret this chart, but I just wanted to show one part.
I am not choosing sides here, i am just trying to clarify that someone has to pay shit, one way or the other.
So, got to do some other awesome shit.
sorry for edit, forgot half my awesome words.
(edited)
Do not misunderstand me, the overall tax rate in Europe is higher than in the US. But why is that so?
One main reason is:
That the quality of health care, child care, the outpay of pensions, money for senior care, the money spend for university education, paid sick, parental leave and so on is not part of the Tax percentage rate for the US and pretty much everyone outside Europe. That is also all a part of that.
Furthermore the debt of private households in the US is higher than in the Eurozone (not writing about GB intentionally), that has to have a reason. By the way while under Obama the total tax revenue as percentage to GDP increased, the private debts decreased slightly. It is not possible to make assumptions here but if I had the full informations I would love to look into it.
There is more to interpret this chart, but I just wanted to show one part.
I am not choosing sides here, i am just trying to clarify that someone has to pay shit, one way or the other.
So, got to do some other awesome shit.
sorry for edit, forgot half my awesome words.
(edited)
that graph tell nothing important with relation to pigs.
Levitate, try to explain what you wanted say by this :-DDD? (if you have any idea of course :-) ) ?
Levitate, try to explain what you wanted say by this :-DDD? (if you have any idea of course :-) ) ?
I wasn't pointing at the difference between Europe and the States (the chart is just American, that's why the States is highlighted). I was pointing at the difference between PIGS and the other European countries.
@ Rumpil: That countries (unfortunately) maintaining high taxes have to save countries who don't have high taxes.
@ Rumpil: That countries (unfortunately) maintaining high taxes have to save countries who don't have high taxes.
Well who in the world knows which I you mean when you write PIGS? I assumed the one you didn't. Oh God.
That countries (unfortunately) maintaining high taxes have to save countries who don't have high taxes.
The Tax rate is not THE indicator for going into major debts, if you find a connection or correlation between public, private debt and Government spending, Tax rate, misspending, mislead investings to go further. Then you probably can verify that. Otherwise not.
That countries (unfortunately) maintaining high taxes have to save countries who don't have high taxes.
The Tax rate is not THE indicator for going into major debts, if you find a connection or correlation between public, private debt and Government spending, Tax rate, misspending, mislead investings to go further. Then you probably can verify that. Otherwise not.
The Tax rate is not THE indicator for going into major debts, if you find a connection or correlation between public, private debt and Government spending, Tax rate, misspending, mislead investings to go further.
Private debt has nothing to do with this. Fact: the states of the PIGS spend too much for the revenues they make. A part of our taxes will be used to safe those countries. People will see this as unfair.
Private debt has nothing to do with this. Fact: the states of the PIGS spend too much for the revenues they make. A part of our taxes will be used to safe those countries. People will see this as unfair.
Unfair is a bitch, it bites you when you have nothing else.
Private debt has nothing to do with this.
erm... no. of course is private debt correlated to Tax rates, Tax spending and public debt.
Fact: the states of the PIGS spend too much for the revenues they make.
I got something for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt#By_country
A part of our taxes will be used to safe those countries.
Yeah (so what -> read further), and their economy is slowly dying due to cutting public spending and unemployment. But when they come back from the grave they will buy things... from the ones that saved their asses. Uh, all that beautiful Belgian beer in Greece because they do not have factories to produce their own and due to mechanization they cannot afford but the BBC (Belgian Beer Companies) (Who would have guessed that means that???) can so who gets all the Beer money?
-> the BBC minus the taxes the Belgian government gets.
Awesomeness ends.
Private debt has nothing to do with this.
erm... no. of course is private debt correlated to Tax rates, Tax spending and public debt.
Fact: the states of the PIGS spend too much for the revenues they make.
I got something for you
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt#By_country
A part of our taxes will be used to safe those countries.
Yeah (so what -> read further), and their economy is slowly dying due to cutting public spending and unemployment. But when they come back from the grave they will buy things... from the ones that saved their asses. Uh, all that beautiful Belgian beer in Greece because they do not have factories to produce their own and due to mechanization they cannot afford but the BBC (Belgian Beer Companies) (Who would have guessed that means that???) can so who gets all the Beer money?
-> the BBC minus the taxes the Belgian government gets.
Awesomeness ends.
Yeah (so what -> read further), and their economy is slowly dying due to cutting public spending and unemployment. But when they come back from the grave they will buy things... from the ones that saved their asses. Uh, all that beautiful Belgian beer in Greece because they do not have factories to produce their own and due to mechanization they cannot afford but the BBC (Belgian Beer Companies) (Who would have guessed that means that???) can so who gets all the Beer money?
-> the BBC minus the taxes the Belgian government gets.
Their economy is dying due to the government spending too much in the past (in relation to the real strength of the Greek economy: the Greek economy was prior to the Euro not as strong as the Belgian, German, Dutch, ...), not because of cutting public spending.
And debt itself is indeed not a real problem, as long as the markets believe you can repay them. Greece had a huge growth in public spending (public wages went up like crazy, search for it) without a real growth. How they paid it? With too low interest rates (due to the Euro) that did not cover the real risk of the corrupt Greek government. Solution? Get out of the Eurozone, devaluation of the Drachme, cut public spending to levels the Greek economy can handle. The increase of welfare of the Greeks the last decade before the crisis was a bubble, similar to the housing bubble in the States. It's not real, it's an illusion. One the rest of Europe is going to pay for.
Although Belgian Beer is awesome, it has nothing to with this.
(edited)
-> the BBC minus the taxes the Belgian government gets.
Their economy is dying due to the government spending too much in the past (in relation to the real strength of the Greek economy: the Greek economy was prior to the Euro not as strong as the Belgian, German, Dutch, ...), not because of cutting public spending.
And debt itself is indeed not a real problem, as long as the markets believe you can repay them. Greece had a huge growth in public spending (public wages went up like crazy, search for it) without a real growth. How they paid it? With too low interest rates (due to the Euro) that did not cover the real risk of the corrupt Greek government. Solution? Get out of the Eurozone, devaluation of the Drachme, cut public spending to levels the Greek economy can handle. The increase of welfare of the Greeks the last decade before the crisis was a bubble, similar to the housing bubble in the States. It's not real, it's an illusion. One the rest of Europe is going to pay for.
Although Belgian Beer is awesome, it has nothing to with this.
(edited)
How easy is to forget how the PIIGS had a strong economy 5 years ago. But we didn't mock anyone.
Their economy is dying due to the government spending too much in the past (in relation to the real strength of the Greek economy: the Greek economy was prior to the Euro not as strong as the Belgian, German, Dutch, ...), not because of cutting public spending.
haha, you are plain wrong there. There are reasons, but that is the wrong one, it is not even a reason. When you bring money in the system, even with money you get from debts. The economy of a state and the welfare will grow, there is no argument about that.
haha, you are plain wrong there. There are reasons, but that is the wrong one, it is not even a reason. When you bring money in the system, even with money you get from debts. The economy of a state and the welfare will grow, there is no argument about that.
The economy of a state and the welfare will grow
I'm not denying that. I'm saying that that growth is not real to me as it's unsustainable to 'buy welfare' in the way the Greek government did. It's a bubble that had to burst some day. The moment interest rates went up, the illusion of the Greek welfare state was over.
(edited)
I'm not denying that. I'm saying that that growth is not real to me as it's unsustainable to 'buy welfare' in the way the Greek government did. It's a bubble that had to burst some day. The moment interest rates went up, the illusion of the Greek welfare state was over.
(edited)
They didn't. The Greek economy wasn't healthy in its core.
the states of the PIGS spend too much for the revenues they make.
to repay debts..
By the way: Italy is third in your useless chart.. isn't it one of PIIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain)?
to repay debts..
By the way: Italy is third in your useless chart.. isn't it one of PIIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain)?
I said apart from Italy. Raising taxes to repay the debt is not a real option for Italy.
(edited)
(edited)
to repay debts..
And debts are the result of spending too much in the past for the revenues they made.
And debts are the result of spending too much in the past for the revenues they made.
The moment interest rates went up, the illusion of the Greek welfare state was over.
in the 50s-70s and 80s throughout beginning of the 90s all those states had also comparable high interest rates, from time to time. But back then they were able to print money and increase inflation in their own countries alone.
I'm saying that that growth is not real to me as it's unsustainable to 'buy welfare' in the way the Greek government did.
growth is always real, but sometimes it comes back to haunt you.
The problem is that they did not invest the money they had. Investment meaning there will be some kind of a return some day. But if you take a look at the rest of Europe in most countries it is the same.
If you have no ressources, (following Adam Smith you need to concentrate on labour and capital stock obviously)
Furthermore nowadays with the new distinguished forms you need to concentrate investments on capital: preferably human capital, intellectual it is called I think; and technological progress.
That is basically it, if you do that you can overspend your state budget for 10 years, because there will be an ROI. If you don't do that you are screwed after about a decade. It is no rocket science.
in the 50s-70s and 80s throughout beginning of the 90s all those states had also comparable high interest rates, from time to time. But back then they were able to print money and increase inflation in their own countries alone.
I'm saying that that growth is not real to me as it's unsustainable to 'buy welfare' in the way the Greek government did.
growth is always real, but sometimes it comes back to haunt you.
The problem is that they did not invest the money they had. Investment meaning there will be some kind of a return some day. But if you take a look at the rest of Europe in most countries it is the same.
If you have no ressources, (following Adam Smith you need to concentrate on labour and capital stock obviously)
Furthermore nowadays with the new distinguished forms you need to concentrate investments on capital: preferably human capital, intellectual it is called I think; and technological progress.
That is basically it, if you do that you can overspend your state budget for 10 years, because there will be an ROI. If you don't do that you are screwed after about a decade. It is no rocket science.