Subject: »PIIGS - economics problems

Of course the Netherlands has to be 1 of best of the best in Europe again, we lend them 4.7 billion :S I don't know where our money-trees grow but it must be a big secret ...

In whose culture is it?

In Greece. Maybe I can find the article ... found it, only it's in dutch nu.nl.

As long as Greece pay you back, you'll make money out of it (Netherlands is not charged as high interest rates as it will charge Greece), so it's not big deal.
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As long as they are able to pay back that money their isn't a real problem ;) But money we lend can't be spend on our own economy and we also have to save money, about 20 billion in the comming 4 years.

Well, that's not exactly true. I've read a Hungarian article about it; lawyers/doctors/etc. won't get their tax system any more, they have to go with the average one; the companies will get a one-time extra tax (4% for the little ones, and 10% for the big ones - with 5 million € profit per year)...
Or Greece can declare bankruptcy, which can mean nobody will give money to your government => and that can mean no pension, no wage for the public servants, no money for hospitals/trains/etc... (okay, I've overdramatized that, but it' understandable, amirite?)

so are these measures fair tou you?

Well, Greece is in deep shit so everything is justified at the moment to get you guys out of those problems. And someone has to pay for it and it's not going to be us :)

And if I look at those measures, most aren't that strange. I've seen a lot of changes in the Netherlands the last few years to make sure our economy keeps healthy. And yes, that costs money, every year a bit more. You have to do it all at once and that's expansive ..

So, how do you place this crisis? And the broader economic crisis? What do you see as the causes and what do you see as possible measures to make sure it happens again?

If greece's financial policy and corruption is to blame, what about portugal and spain?

edit: and more importantly, seeing how we as voting citizens are ultimately responsible for the politicians we choose, what does that say about our position in society? Should we become more active (like the extreme left in greece is doing right now?) or get better informed (like belgians are totally nót doing right now?).
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Well, you can't do much if you have to choose from a bad politician and an other bad politician... (and if you have to choose from 4 bad ones... that sucks :D)

If we do not want such thigs to happen again, then there is a need to a big global revolution. Capitalism (especialy our monetary system) became obsolete, like comunism, feudalism, monarchy and other systems before.
Maintaining this system will lead into a bigger crisis in future years, like some economists predict year in 2020.

Let set some things straight...

a) There is no way that a country like Greece (member of EU) could declare bankrupcy. You can't imagine the effect on euro.

b) France offered to help us will Germany was reluctants to help. However Germany forced Greece to pay for a submarine which had problem due to bad manfacturing in order to hep up. They are also forcing us to buy more military equipment.

=> Giving help and taking in right back by buying products of the german military industries.

c) Greece spents a large amount of GDP on military equipment due to the "conflict" and insecurity with our neighbors. Why doesn't EU and EuroMilitary guarantee the safety of the greek people. This way we could minimise our expenses and debt.

d) Now EU and IMF have lend us money BUT they don't do it for free.... For expamle Germany borrows money with 2-3% and lend them to us with 5%. Of course we can't demand the same rate like Germany.

e) Germany deliberately delayed the help to Greece as it was really convenient for some german banks which had a speculative role.

f) The worst haven't come yet. Next targets are Portugal, Spain and why not UK...

It would be nice to know what your qualification is on this matter:)

Greece can be declared bankrupt, no doubt about that. That would happen if you don't take the measures, and if you don't make them happen, they should kick Greece out of Euro-zone and EU, and after that, Greece would be bankrupt. But if you do what you should, and you don't keep striking, the problems will eventually go over, but that will take a long time imo. That's what happens when your politicians lie to the other Euro-countries. And your system should change a lot: I believe 40% of the Greek work somehow for the government. That is way to much.

Common sense ;-).

don't mistake common sense for an academic skill

(goes both ways, btw, but still I'd like to hear from experts, not from what somebody heard grom a guy in a pub)

It's like it is possible that there are no elections in Belgium because the constitution says the election law has to change first. It's a doom scenario that is there to give some limits to the system (and as such, give it its credibility), but it'll never come so far.

Iceland, Estonia? Probably some other countries who were unofficially bankrupt, but we bailed them out.

Only when no other country has interests to protect in that country, it can go bankrupt. Other than that, no chance...

The economic crisis has resulted from the financial crisis. And I had a class ( macro-economics ) that, dealt with that problem. You see, in the years before autumn 2007, the Fed ( American Central Bank ) let the intrest rates to low, because they didn't want deflation ( negative inflation, like Japan had for many years, which is worse than high inflation, as long as it isn't hyperinflation ). This made a lot of Americans buy houses they couldn't afford. The house prices went up, in fact like a bubble. In autumn 2007, that bubble exploded, and the American Banks had loans that would never be paid back. I'm talking about Lehman Brothers, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. This caused crises in the European banks too, which you can't blame, so to that Greek guy ( I'm sorry, I've forgotten your nickname ): you can't let the banks pay for the Greek debt either. Btw, for Belgians ( and Dutchies will know this too ): the Fortis-case has nothing to do with this.
So that is ( shortly ) what has happened. Of course the monetary system should change. Like Gordon Brown and Nicolas Sarkozy have suggested, their should become a kind of Bretton Woods II, but without fixing the US Dollar to the gold. But this is becoming quite technical, and I don't know if you guys can still follow, as I don't know what you know about (macro-)economics ;-)
About Spain and Portugal: in fact, I don't really know what their biggest problem is ( I do know they didn't lie like Greece did ), but I suppose their economic system isn't healthy neither, for instance too many employees working for the government, too high pensions in comparison to taxes, inefficient government, ...
Yes, we should be more active in politics, but not like the Greek left side is doing. They strike every minute. But the problem is that many people who vote don't know a lot of economics, so parties can say what they want, most people don't understand a s*** of economics ;-)