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Subject: »Gaza sea convoy incident
ure such an idiot... can realy help it but an idiot
few guys are hiting you with a metal thing, and you just wait for your death... thats how you do it..
(edited)
few guys are hiting you with a metal thing, and you just wait for your death... thats how you do it..
(edited)
Did you even bother to read what I wrote ?
Is throwing a man 10 meters hoping he will die isnt enough of for you to say they should have defend them selves ?
I see your a tough crowed.
Let say a man is in his car, a routine check is conducted by a policeman who pulled him over.
As the police man gets to the window, the nice man takes a knife and thrust it to the police man belly, do you think it is to far fetched for him to use his gun to stop him from killing him ?
Lets make it even more countervertial lets assume his partner is standing close by and he can stop his fellow police man from being murdered by using his own pistol. will that be ok with you ?
Would you rather the death of this police man ?
Are you so bias that you could actually say, after watching the clips of the incident how they threw solider 10 meters down to another deck, tried to kill the soldiers with knives, live ammunition and iron bars that Israeli soldiers shouldnt have open fire?
If a person shoots at you, you wouldnt shoot back? I am sorry I dont accept it and I dont think you would to if you were using your brain god gave you
(edited)
Is throwing a man 10 meters hoping he will die isnt enough of for you to say they should have defend them selves ?
I see your a tough crowed.
Let say a man is in his car, a routine check is conducted by a policeman who pulled him over.
As the police man gets to the window, the nice man takes a knife and thrust it to the police man belly, do you think it is to far fetched for him to use his gun to stop him from killing him ?
Lets make it even more countervertial lets assume his partner is standing close by and he can stop his fellow police man from being murdered by using his own pistol. will that be ok with you ?
Would you rather the death of this police man ?
Are you so bias that you could actually say, after watching the clips of the incident how they threw solider 10 meters down to another deck, tried to kill the soldiers with knives, live ammunition and iron bars that Israeli soldiers shouldnt have open fire?
If a person shoots at you, you wouldnt shoot back? I am sorry I dont accept it and I dont think you would to if you were using your brain god gave you
(edited)
I didn't actually see the videos, and I didn't know they fired at them first....
But my question is why did they have to storm troop those ships from a helicopter like that in the first place? Isn't there a more safer way to stop a convoy of ships (for both sides)
But my question is why did they have to storm troop those ships from a helicopter like that in the first place? Isn't there a more safer way to stop a convoy of ships (for both sides)
They would have continued to Israel no matter what. at that said, IDF could have tried to mess with the ships engines. I guess they thought a mistake there would make 600 people in danger from drowning if that went wrong.
IDF Believed the activists when they said they are unarmed, I guess IDF thought was it will be the safest way to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod port to get the food to Gaza.
Obviously IDF were wrong and an investigation will be led for this encounter
BTW the method worked on all other ships but the one with the terrorists on board
IDF Believed the activists when they said they are unarmed, I guess IDF thought was it will be the safest way to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod port to get the food to Gaza.
Obviously IDF were wrong and an investigation will be led for this encounter
BTW the method worked on all other ships but the one with the terrorists on board
stop spamming this thread with random videos from youtube please
the topic is called israeli terror. the movies are around israeli terror
the topic is about the ship incidient, not about racist videos from youtube.
i know you can do better than this
i know you can do better than this
You need to place photos at its contact, do you really expect me to take you seriously? for real?
The fact that this tread is still called that way is an insult.
Making a cheap propaganda is easy 232 Israeli died from terrorists acts.
We dont have pictures from those suicide bombs since we dont allow it. If we used the same shameless and low propaganda our status was much better.
The fact that this tread is still called that way is an insult.
Making a cheap propaganda is easy 232 Israeli died from terrorists acts.
We dont have pictures from those suicide bombs since we dont allow it. If we used the same shameless and low propaganda our status was much better.
@noeok - You seriously are ignorant or simply malicious by intent.
The videos placed above have nothing to do with the current situation.
Not only that, they are piss poor frauds made by a propaganda machine which has proved over and over again that what it shows it completely untrue and in many cases fraudulent. In the last 20 years, around 90% of all reports made by and for the Palestinian cause were proven to be hoaxes. Yet when initially filmed and aired they caused a great sensation and outcry around the world. The massacre in Jenin, the shooting of child Mohammad a-dura, the sabra & shatila massacre. All were either staged, photoshop-ed or proved to have nothing to do with Israel. However, no one cares months or years later that they were false, the damage was already done.
@laufer - this is a very very sad way to make an argument.
You are ignorant of the facts, admit not to have read the previous posts and when referred to a single point for debate you bring in other non-related issues. I understand this thread and forum is also populated by young people who lack a debate culture, but if you want to get serious answers, please make serious arguments.
@Nin - I'm surprised and saddened by your reactions which I deem to be a pure result of media spoon-fed diet. I don't blame you mate, but you should be slightly more open minded to the possibility, maybe even a slight one, that you are incorrect.
The recent events around this flotilla cruise were well known and handled here in Israel for the last couple of months since they started getting organised. Turkish PM backed by Iran and fuelled by hamas was the one pulling the strings behind the whole affair. Israel made tremendous efforts in the political arena to stop this before it even started but the purpose of this was one and single and had nothing to do with humanitarian aid of medical supplies. The sole purpose was to cause Israel world public opinion damage and despite our best efforts this went through.
We offered to add this shipment of goods to the numerous other ones coming into the Gaza strip on a daily basis. We offered any sort of assistance to the 'peace loving' organisers of this convoy so that they can see that the goods arrive intact. But the insistence on a broad day light operation covered by a multitude of cameras and well staged to look horrible expose it as the sham it was in the first place.
You need to reconsider your stance in light not only of the footage which clearly shows what actually happened, but also in the overall context of historical events over the past 20 years in Israel and abroad, whose media was honest and truthful, who nation was murdering tourists around the world and who calls for the destruction of western civilisation. I hope you see no misguided resemblance between the Palestinians and your Northern brethren in their struggle as the two things have very very little in common.
The videos placed above have nothing to do with the current situation.
Not only that, they are piss poor frauds made by a propaganda machine which has proved over and over again that what it shows it completely untrue and in many cases fraudulent. In the last 20 years, around 90% of all reports made by and for the Palestinian cause were proven to be hoaxes. Yet when initially filmed and aired they caused a great sensation and outcry around the world. The massacre in Jenin, the shooting of child Mohammad a-dura, the sabra & shatila massacre. All were either staged, photoshop-ed or proved to have nothing to do with Israel. However, no one cares months or years later that they were false, the damage was already done.
@laufer - this is a very very sad way to make an argument.
You are ignorant of the facts, admit not to have read the previous posts and when referred to a single point for debate you bring in other non-related issues. I understand this thread and forum is also populated by young people who lack a debate culture, but if you want to get serious answers, please make serious arguments.
@Nin - I'm surprised and saddened by your reactions which I deem to be a pure result of media spoon-fed diet. I don't blame you mate, but you should be slightly more open minded to the possibility, maybe even a slight one, that you are incorrect.
The recent events around this flotilla cruise were well known and handled here in Israel for the last couple of months since they started getting organised. Turkish PM backed by Iran and fuelled by hamas was the one pulling the strings behind the whole affair. Israel made tremendous efforts in the political arena to stop this before it even started but the purpose of this was one and single and had nothing to do with humanitarian aid of medical supplies. The sole purpose was to cause Israel world public opinion damage and despite our best efforts this went through.
We offered to add this shipment of goods to the numerous other ones coming into the Gaza strip on a daily basis. We offered any sort of assistance to the 'peace loving' organisers of this convoy so that they can see that the goods arrive intact. But the insistence on a broad day light operation covered by a multitude of cameras and well staged to look horrible expose it as the sham it was in the first place.
You need to reconsider your stance in light not only of the footage which clearly shows what actually happened, but also in the overall context of historical events over the past 20 years in Israel and abroad, whose media was honest and truthful, who nation was murdering tourists around the world and who calls for the destruction of western civilisation. I hope you see no misguided resemblance between the Palestinians and your Northern brethren in their struggle as the two things have very very little in common.
For all those who missed my previous post, I feel inclined to copy it here.
PLEASE read it. I wrote it myself and it's not copied from some news report. Thanks
--------------------------
This is going to be a long-ish post, so I apologise to all those with short tempers or even shorter attention spans. I will do my best to address several issues and hopefully make a few points that will convey Israeli sentiments about this whole affair.
1. Sokker reactions: There are two issues here; the first being the open and hostile debate which is considered ‘appropriate’ or ‘allowed’ in the Sokker forums when allegedly Israel and Human Rights issues are concerned. While people are entitled to their opinions, I distinctly remember when far milder references were made to the Kurdish genocide by the Turks or the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict or other such issues, the arguments were quickly taken off the forums. For some reason Israel is a ‘legitimate’ target. The second issue is that the few somewhat hot-headed’ Israeli user reactions happened only because we here in Israel have accepted defeat in the propaganda war long ago. I will try to correct this issue by a bit and hopefully expose to you, some of our understanding and view points of the situation.
2. Propaganda: The bias against Israel/Jews is something we have learned to live with, not only because of those doing it, but because we suck it… always have and always will. Since the days when we murdered Christian children in Russia to get fresh blood for our Passover ceremonies , to betraying the French Army in the Dreyfus affair or the 2002 Jenin massacre – we always did the worst possible job using media and propaganda. Funny thing that; considering we control the world media, on top of the banks and the US government of course ;-). The Israelis were always reacting too little, too late and mostly after the initial shock of the often misleading headlines has already done its damage. I’m not saying it is only that, but this type of benign approach to propaganda is somewhat fuelled by the resentment of having to justify your own actions to defend yourself. But this is a sentiment and nothing more. It is hard to counter the sad and compelling story of a Palestinian child shot by Israeli soldiers and broadcast by French TV to the entire world and after two years of investigation expose that it was staged and have the French (/Arab) producer accused of fraud in the French courts. The damage was already done and no one actually cares about some court case. Photography of tanks and armed Israeli soldiers facing rock throwing Palestinian children is not only more exciting, but also provokes the ‘David V Goliath’ sympathies. We have witnessed this a hundred times and more in the last Gaza operation when automatic targeting of rocket launch pads against Israel turned to be school yards, hospitals or mosques. Our Crappy Israeli foreign ministry with all its technology is simply horribly inapt in fighting this most important battle for world opinion.
This is by no means to say that we Israelis are all saints and that only bad media is doing us damage. The Israeli government has made plenty of mistakes over the years, but the gap between choosing an appropriate line of action and reporting it is huge.
3. Human Rights: Well it is hard for anyone, or at least most people to be free of blame when you follow; let those free of sin cast the first stone. This sort of disqualifies many western or ‘civilised’ countries for crimes against humanity made in different times in history. These can be small infringements like locking up in prison camps all Japanese descendants in the USA during WWII or terrible issues like the Kurdish genocide in Turkey. It is hard for most people here to speak with a clean national record, though that shouldn’t stop an opinionated debate. However, there is one difference between Israelis and most other users here in Sokker or worldwide in this debate - nearly all of us Israelis have served in the military and have been closely involved in conflict and war situations, with one or several of our enemies. Our accounts – as subjective as they might be – are first hand experiences and not media report based.
Let me tell you something, as a Reserve Captain in the Israeli military – I am proud to have served in an army that has and still is, doing its utmost to prevent damage to non-combatants, to minimize risk to civilians, treat non-armed people with kid-gloves and treat medically foe and friend alike. I am honoured to have received these teachings and orders from my commanders and to have passed them strictly to my soldiers. I know first hand the extent and efforts made by my country’s military to differentiate between a civilian population and terrorists when the latter hide behind the former. The life risking scenarios and self-endangerment of Israeli soldiers take to try and minimize casualties. This is NOT some media report, I have been there and done that!
I don’t know how many armies would have managed to come out with better results. Everybody is so quick on the criticism and denouncement, but we need not look too long behind to see the intentional policies or mistakes made by the Western coalition in destroying villages in Iraq, NATO bombing supply convoys in Bosnia or French drowning Greenpeace boats and many more. In all our Israeli wars and endless conflicts – as a matter of strict policy – we have tried to do our best and avoid hurting civilian population, but it is extremely hard when the population is so thickly and intentionally integrated with the combatants.
BTW, in Israel there is no death penalty, thieves hands are not cut off, people are free to practice their religion where no churches or mosques are burnt down, Arabs who are exempt from most civilian duties get elected to the parliament and everyone can live freely and happily in one of the most democratic countries in the world. The fact that Palestinian terrorists can appeal to the Supreme Court in Israel when their internet privileges in Israeli prisons are taken away, yet our soldier (Gilad Shalit) rots away without even a permission for a visit by the Red Cross are a few of the facts of living here. You miss the hundreds of (boring) stories about Palestinian children getting medical treatment in Israeli hospitals – voluntarily and free, the fact that electricity and water is provided free of charge to the Gaza strip by Israel and many more such like, which I’ll touch in another section here.
Don’t knock it until you have come to see it and witness it first hand!
4. Arabs in Israel: Imagine in Belgium for example, that a Muslim parliament member (I don’t know if there are any) will take the podium and declare that Belgium and Europe entire is property of the Arab/Muslim nation and that he calls all Belgian civilians of an Arab descent or Muslim belief, to destroy the Belgian nation by arms, explosives or any means necessary. He’ll do so not once, but many times gathering momentum and support. Will the laws of your country allow the call for the destruction of the state from the speaker’s spot at the parliament? I’m sure there is some law against it.
But here you say – people will think he is crazy and ignore him… only we all know that he might get re-elected by a fast growing Muslim population that will demand (!) certain rights now that they are such a large percentage of the population. How long will it be before your country turns into a religious battle ground? I think it already started in a few places.
You might also say – that it is different in Israel because this Arab has a right to claim his own country from his occupiers, while Belgium always belonged to the Belgian people… we all know that claims to an area anywhere around the world will always produce several callers, even unexpected ones. Yet here in Israel, our sworn enemies, our bitter foes who wish to wipe us completely out, not in idyllic Europe, but in this blood soaked tiny land, get to become parliament members, go freely around the country and take any position they like every other citizens. While I, an Israeli civilian can not go into their towns and villages for fear of my life.
I know this little side anecdote is not directly related to the events of today, but it is connected by the facts that there were Arab-Israelis on this ship, there is a debate which invoked many hate speeches by Arab parliament members calling to kill all the Jews/Israelis after today and that many human rights, including freedom of speech and representation are proudly kept in Israel.
5. The Gaza blockade: It is difficult to explain the whole Israeli-Palestinian situation in a few words on a temporary debate here in Sokker. Suffice to say that the Gaza strip is an entirely different affair, land, government and people than the West Bank controlled by the PLO and the democratically elected Palestinian leadership of Abu-Mazen.
The Gaza strip is an arm of Hizzbullah and Iran, densely populated by the Hamas terrorist organisation, the sworn enemy not only of Israel, but of most of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and most of the Sunni Arab world. It is violent not only towards Israel, but towards its own people, who seek every opportunity or reason to either escape inTO Israel or simply get out of there. It is an official enemy of the state of Israel (by their choice) and as long as it has a border with us and officially declares that it wishes to destroy us, it will remain under this blockade.
What is this blockade? It means that goods of all sorts and any kind, are allowed into the Gaza strip, as long as they do not serve as weapons or weapon manufacturing. Other than goods provided by the International community like flour or sugar or medicine that keep pouring in every day through one of the three border crossings with Israel, Israel provides electricity, water and other infrastructure amenities for free. It is our belief that even if the population in the Gaza strip supports Hamas and even as our enemies, they should not be deprived of their basic human commodities and needs. This is done despite the continuous rocket, missile and mortar launches at our cities, the attempts to kidnap soldiers and infiltrate Israel for terrorist activities. Even the goods’ border crossings where the European aide is arriving through, has been attacked numerous times by the Hamas, trying to cause a humanitarian aid crisis in the Gaza strip by disrupting the goods delivery.
But you know what… let’s say Israel is horrible and I’m totally lying and that we do not allow anything into Gaza. Let us say that it is truly under siege. Did you know that the Gaza strip also has a very nice border with Egypt? A couple of very nice border crossings with Egypt! Yet, why are no goods whatsoever – NONE! - delivered to Gaza from Egypt? Why is the border closed off and the Palestinians have to get all their European supplies through Israel? Why do the Palestinians have to build tunnels to smuggle things in from Egypt? [when Israel controlled these crossing between Gaza and Egypt, every time the Israeli air force bombed the smuggling tunnels, we gave them early warnings so they can evacuate and only the tunnels were destroyed. The Egyptians on the other hand in a coordinated surprise attack – gassed !!! the tunnels, killing the diggers and smugglers!]
article 1
article 2
Why don’t you people condemn Egypt for not helping at all their poor brethren in the Gaza strip? Why is there no accusing finger towards Husny Mubarak for HIS total blockade of the Gaza strip? I guess because it’s more simple to accuse us.
As long as the Hamas Terrorist government calls out openly for the destruction of the state of Israel and actively wars against us, we will not allow their enclave within our tiny country free border crossing, which will enable more weapons to be brought in by Iran. Any attempt to portray the Gaza Palestinians under another light will be deceitful.
6. Today’s maritime events: During the last few days the Israeli & Turkish ambassadors in Washington have discussed the issue numerous times. Since the IHH organisation which organised the flotilla is considered an outlaw organisation in several countries (dealings with terrorist organisations), there was an attempt by some Turkish politicians and diplomats to stop this. However under Turkish PM Erdoğan this was orchestrated and organised and eventually the Turkish ambassador in Washington said they are not going to stop it.
Israel declared several times that all supplies or humanitarian aid aboard the ships could be transferred into the Gaza strip with an escort of UN/NATO/any western observers the organisers want, as long as the stuff was inspected for weapons. However, the purpose of the cruise was not to deliver goods or support, instead to provoke and create an international embarrassment for Israel by making it look bad. In this case, the little amount of goods on the ships were a thin chastity coat for the purpose of the cruise.
Not only that… IHH and Hamas orchestrated the whole thing and we gave them all their wishes, which is our own fault and failing. The Israeli navy discussed other options for controlling the boats, like disabling their propellers, but all other options were eventually dimmed more risky for the people on board.
Also, the peace loving, freedom activists, liberation supplies’ deliverers on board, were armed to the teeth with metal bars, spikes, Molotov cocktails (incendiary bottles), knifes, clubs and other weapons including pistols! The weapons were distributed throughout the ship and well organised. Some of the men on board are active Hamas terrorists. Mostly, they were also equipped with cameras aimed only to produce the right type of footage aimed to create the same ‘Ohh look, poor me’ shots against the Israeli soldiers.
On the other hand, Israeli soldiers came on board armed with paint guns and tear gas with concealed hand-guns, hoping this will go smoothly and no one will get injured. For those who watched the footage, you can understand why live fire was necessary to control the lynching 600 strong mob, led by well trained Hamas terrorists. The result of this voyage regardless of injuries or causalities would have been the same… transferring of the goods by Israel to the Gaza strip on land, but maintaining the sea blockade. Any other army in the world would have ended up with five times more injured and dead and instead of viewing the results as an operational failure, I think it is possibly the best result such an action could have been achieved. 9 unfortunate casualties and several wounded. Indeed, it would have been better, if we didn’t have to face this at all, and some deluded provocateurs would have concentrated on true goods supply to Gaza or curbing Hamas calls to destroy Israel, but the results of the take over and current handling of the 600+ people in Israel is exemplary. Our country has laws and a legal system and borders to protect and defend – break any of these at your own peril. We will try to stop you as humanely as possible, but even ‘peace activists’ can draw the line only so much.
7. Turkey: This perhaps is the most painful point in my whole post. Why? Because I have many Turkish friends and have great respect for their history… with all their pitfalls, shortcomings and our shared history. The Ottoman empire ruled Israel/Palestine for many many years. My point is, that I perceive this country going down the drain as fast as Israel, yet for completely different reasons.
The origins of modern Turkey – putting aside the Kurdish issue – owe much to one single man called Ataturk. He was a visionary and great leader who among many other things saw the need to separate religion from the state and strove to turn Turkey into a modern, democratic and flourishing country. His legacy and work is the basis of most Turkish achievements of modern Turkey.
Mostly he allowed Turkey to proudly maintain its religion, traditions and customs while advancing towards Europe as a western country. Turkey was extremely close to becoming an EU member only until a couple of years ago.
Israel was a great friend and ally to Turkey, having Turkey as its biggest arms buyer and most popular tourist destination. Relations between the countries grew steadily over the last few decades to a solid friendship. However all that changed in 2003 to the sadness of many, when Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was elected PM. I could say many things about this guy… his lack of manners, his fundamentalist streak, his enormous ego, his decision making choices and almost embarrassing love for Iran’s Ahmedinajad… but this caused several main things; Turkey is no longer a candidate to join the EU, Turkey has drifted into the world-hating arms of Iran, Turkey lost its great ally and partner in Israel and mostly… Turkey has moved away from Ataturk’s vision.
As much as Ataturk was a great man with a spirit like few leaders ever in human history, Erdoğan is an idiot on the same scale as Ataturk’s greatness. He turned Turkey into a fundamentalist heaven and breeding ground for Shiite terror. He exposed the population to unbelievable and deliberate anti-Israeli, anti-American, anti-western culture waves, he instituted more religious laws then any previous Turkish PM and is standing firmly behind this whole incident of today. For us Israelis I hope he dies in a freak yachting accident and for my Turkish friends; I hope they find a better PM asap, so they can erase this idiot Erdoğan’s mistakes and regain the legacy of Ataturk.
8. Closing: If you have read all this, then I applaud you and apologise if you fell asleep half way through :) . I hope I managed to convey some of my and my fellow Israeli sentiments about this although being Israelis, they each have 5 opinions each about every subject I mentioned here above. I do not claim to represent any or all of them. I hope I avoided all references of anti-Semitism or the holocaust so some of you hypocrite touchy types won’t blame me for connecting all things to these subjects and witness that most Israeli modern arguments are free of these issues despite what some of you might want to infer. If my words offended anyone for whatever reason, I apologise and will respect any counter arguments if they are brought forth with the same amount of respect for this forum and discussion as my effort here.
PEACE
PLEASE read it. I wrote it myself and it's not copied from some news report. Thanks
--------------------------
This is going to be a long-ish post, so I apologise to all those with short tempers or even shorter attention spans. I will do my best to address several issues and hopefully make a few points that will convey Israeli sentiments about this whole affair.
1. Sokker reactions: There are two issues here; the first being the open and hostile debate which is considered ‘appropriate’ or ‘allowed’ in the Sokker forums when allegedly Israel and Human Rights issues are concerned. While people are entitled to their opinions, I distinctly remember when far milder references were made to the Kurdish genocide by the Turks or the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict or other such issues, the arguments were quickly taken off the forums. For some reason Israel is a ‘legitimate’ target. The second issue is that the few somewhat hot-headed’ Israeli user reactions happened only because we here in Israel have accepted defeat in the propaganda war long ago. I will try to correct this issue by a bit and hopefully expose to you, some of our understanding and view points of the situation.
2. Propaganda: The bias against Israel/Jews is something we have learned to live with, not only because of those doing it, but because we suck it… always have and always will. Since the days when we murdered Christian children in Russia to get fresh blood for our Passover ceremonies , to betraying the French Army in the Dreyfus affair or the 2002 Jenin massacre – we always did the worst possible job using media and propaganda. Funny thing that; considering we control the world media, on top of the banks and the US government of course ;-). The Israelis were always reacting too little, too late and mostly after the initial shock of the often misleading headlines has already done its damage. I’m not saying it is only that, but this type of benign approach to propaganda is somewhat fuelled by the resentment of having to justify your own actions to defend yourself. But this is a sentiment and nothing more. It is hard to counter the sad and compelling story of a Palestinian child shot by Israeli soldiers and broadcast by French TV to the entire world and after two years of investigation expose that it was staged and have the French (/Arab) producer accused of fraud in the French courts. The damage was already done and no one actually cares about some court case. Photography of tanks and armed Israeli soldiers facing rock throwing Palestinian children is not only more exciting, but also provokes the ‘David V Goliath’ sympathies. We have witnessed this a hundred times and more in the last Gaza operation when automatic targeting of rocket launch pads against Israel turned to be school yards, hospitals or mosques. Our Crappy Israeli foreign ministry with all its technology is simply horribly inapt in fighting this most important battle for world opinion.
This is by no means to say that we Israelis are all saints and that only bad media is doing us damage. The Israeli government has made plenty of mistakes over the years, but the gap between choosing an appropriate line of action and reporting it is huge.
3. Human Rights: Well it is hard for anyone, or at least most people to be free of blame when you follow; let those free of sin cast the first stone. This sort of disqualifies many western or ‘civilised’ countries for crimes against humanity made in different times in history. These can be small infringements like locking up in prison camps all Japanese descendants in the USA during WWII or terrible issues like the Kurdish genocide in Turkey. It is hard for most people here to speak with a clean national record, though that shouldn’t stop an opinionated debate. However, there is one difference between Israelis and most other users here in Sokker or worldwide in this debate - nearly all of us Israelis have served in the military and have been closely involved in conflict and war situations, with one or several of our enemies. Our accounts – as subjective as they might be – are first hand experiences and not media report based.
Let me tell you something, as a Reserve Captain in the Israeli military – I am proud to have served in an army that has and still is, doing its utmost to prevent damage to non-combatants, to minimize risk to civilians, treat non-armed people with kid-gloves and treat medically foe and friend alike. I am honoured to have received these teachings and orders from my commanders and to have passed them strictly to my soldiers. I know first hand the extent and efforts made by my country’s military to differentiate between a civilian population and terrorists when the latter hide behind the former. The life risking scenarios and self-endangerment of Israeli soldiers take to try and minimize casualties. This is NOT some media report, I have been there and done that!
I don’t know how many armies would have managed to come out with better results. Everybody is so quick on the criticism and denouncement, but we need not look too long behind to see the intentional policies or mistakes made by the Western coalition in destroying villages in Iraq, NATO bombing supply convoys in Bosnia or French drowning Greenpeace boats and many more. In all our Israeli wars and endless conflicts – as a matter of strict policy – we have tried to do our best and avoid hurting civilian population, but it is extremely hard when the population is so thickly and intentionally integrated with the combatants.
BTW, in Israel there is no death penalty, thieves hands are not cut off, people are free to practice their religion where no churches or mosques are burnt down, Arabs who are exempt from most civilian duties get elected to the parliament and everyone can live freely and happily in one of the most democratic countries in the world. The fact that Palestinian terrorists can appeal to the Supreme Court in Israel when their internet privileges in Israeli prisons are taken away, yet our soldier (Gilad Shalit) rots away without even a permission for a visit by the Red Cross are a few of the facts of living here. You miss the hundreds of (boring) stories about Palestinian children getting medical treatment in Israeli hospitals – voluntarily and free, the fact that electricity and water is provided free of charge to the Gaza strip by Israel and many more such like, which I’ll touch in another section here.
Don’t knock it until you have come to see it and witness it first hand!
4. Arabs in Israel: Imagine in Belgium for example, that a Muslim parliament member (I don’t know if there are any) will take the podium and declare that Belgium and Europe entire is property of the Arab/Muslim nation and that he calls all Belgian civilians of an Arab descent or Muslim belief, to destroy the Belgian nation by arms, explosives or any means necessary. He’ll do so not once, but many times gathering momentum and support. Will the laws of your country allow the call for the destruction of the state from the speaker’s spot at the parliament? I’m sure there is some law against it.
But here you say – people will think he is crazy and ignore him… only we all know that he might get re-elected by a fast growing Muslim population that will demand (!) certain rights now that they are such a large percentage of the population. How long will it be before your country turns into a religious battle ground? I think it already started in a few places.
You might also say – that it is different in Israel because this Arab has a right to claim his own country from his occupiers, while Belgium always belonged to the Belgian people… we all know that claims to an area anywhere around the world will always produce several callers, even unexpected ones. Yet here in Israel, our sworn enemies, our bitter foes who wish to wipe us completely out, not in idyllic Europe, but in this blood soaked tiny land, get to become parliament members, go freely around the country and take any position they like every other citizens. While I, an Israeli civilian can not go into their towns and villages for fear of my life.
I know this little side anecdote is not directly related to the events of today, but it is connected by the facts that there were Arab-Israelis on this ship, there is a debate which invoked many hate speeches by Arab parliament members calling to kill all the Jews/Israelis after today and that many human rights, including freedom of speech and representation are proudly kept in Israel.
5. The Gaza blockade: It is difficult to explain the whole Israeli-Palestinian situation in a few words on a temporary debate here in Sokker. Suffice to say that the Gaza strip is an entirely different affair, land, government and people than the West Bank controlled by the PLO and the democratically elected Palestinian leadership of Abu-Mazen.
The Gaza strip is an arm of Hizzbullah and Iran, densely populated by the Hamas terrorist organisation, the sworn enemy not only of Israel, but of most of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and most of the Sunni Arab world. It is violent not only towards Israel, but towards its own people, who seek every opportunity or reason to either escape inTO Israel or simply get out of there. It is an official enemy of the state of Israel (by their choice) and as long as it has a border with us and officially declares that it wishes to destroy us, it will remain under this blockade.
What is this blockade? It means that goods of all sorts and any kind, are allowed into the Gaza strip, as long as they do not serve as weapons or weapon manufacturing. Other than goods provided by the International community like flour or sugar or medicine that keep pouring in every day through one of the three border crossings with Israel, Israel provides electricity, water and other infrastructure amenities for free. It is our belief that even if the population in the Gaza strip supports Hamas and even as our enemies, they should not be deprived of their basic human commodities and needs. This is done despite the continuous rocket, missile and mortar launches at our cities, the attempts to kidnap soldiers and infiltrate Israel for terrorist activities. Even the goods’ border crossings where the European aide is arriving through, has been attacked numerous times by the Hamas, trying to cause a humanitarian aid crisis in the Gaza strip by disrupting the goods delivery.
But you know what… let’s say Israel is horrible and I’m totally lying and that we do not allow anything into Gaza. Let us say that it is truly under siege. Did you know that the Gaza strip also has a very nice border with Egypt? A couple of very nice border crossings with Egypt! Yet, why are no goods whatsoever – NONE! - delivered to Gaza from Egypt? Why is the border closed off and the Palestinians have to get all their European supplies through Israel? Why do the Palestinians have to build tunnels to smuggle things in from Egypt? [when Israel controlled these crossing between Gaza and Egypt, every time the Israeli air force bombed the smuggling tunnels, we gave them early warnings so they can evacuate and only the tunnels were destroyed. The Egyptians on the other hand in a coordinated surprise attack – gassed !!! the tunnels, killing the diggers and smugglers!]
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Why don’t you people condemn Egypt for not helping at all their poor brethren in the Gaza strip? Why is there no accusing finger towards Husny Mubarak for HIS total blockade of the Gaza strip? I guess because it’s more simple to accuse us.
As long as the Hamas Terrorist government calls out openly for the destruction of the state of Israel and actively wars against us, we will not allow their enclave within our tiny country free border crossing, which will enable more weapons to be brought in by Iran. Any attempt to portray the Gaza Palestinians under another light will be deceitful.
6. Today’s maritime events: During the last few days the Israeli & Turkish ambassadors in Washington have discussed the issue numerous times. Since the IHH organisation which organised the flotilla is considered an outlaw organisation in several countries (dealings with terrorist organisations), there was an attempt by some Turkish politicians and diplomats to stop this. However under Turkish PM Erdoğan this was orchestrated and organised and eventually the Turkish ambassador in Washington said they are not going to stop it.
Israel declared several times that all supplies or humanitarian aid aboard the ships could be transferred into the Gaza strip with an escort of UN/NATO/any western observers the organisers want, as long as the stuff was inspected for weapons. However, the purpose of the cruise was not to deliver goods or support, instead to provoke and create an international embarrassment for Israel by making it look bad. In this case, the little amount of goods on the ships were a thin chastity coat for the purpose of the cruise.
Not only that… IHH and Hamas orchestrated the whole thing and we gave them all their wishes, which is our own fault and failing. The Israeli navy discussed other options for controlling the boats, like disabling their propellers, but all other options were eventually dimmed more risky for the people on board.
Also, the peace loving, freedom activists, liberation supplies’ deliverers on board, were armed to the teeth with metal bars, spikes, Molotov cocktails (incendiary bottles), knifes, clubs and other weapons including pistols! The weapons were distributed throughout the ship and well organised. Some of the men on board are active Hamas terrorists. Mostly, they were also equipped with cameras aimed only to produce the right type of footage aimed to create the same ‘Ohh look, poor me’ shots against the Israeli soldiers.
On the other hand, Israeli soldiers came on board armed with paint guns and tear gas with concealed hand-guns, hoping this will go smoothly and no one will get injured. For those who watched the footage, you can understand why live fire was necessary to control the lynching 600 strong mob, led by well trained Hamas terrorists. The result of this voyage regardless of injuries or causalities would have been the same… transferring of the goods by Israel to the Gaza strip on land, but maintaining the sea blockade. Any other army in the world would have ended up with five times more injured and dead and instead of viewing the results as an operational failure, I think it is possibly the best result such an action could have been achieved. 9 unfortunate casualties and several wounded. Indeed, it would have been better, if we didn’t have to face this at all, and some deluded provocateurs would have concentrated on true goods supply to Gaza or curbing Hamas calls to destroy Israel, but the results of the take over and current handling of the 600+ people in Israel is exemplary. Our country has laws and a legal system and borders to protect and defend – break any of these at your own peril. We will try to stop you as humanely as possible, but even ‘peace activists’ can draw the line only so much.
7. Turkey: This perhaps is the most painful point in my whole post. Why? Because I have many Turkish friends and have great respect for their history… with all their pitfalls, shortcomings and our shared history. The Ottoman empire ruled Israel/Palestine for many many years. My point is, that I perceive this country going down the drain as fast as Israel, yet for completely different reasons.
The origins of modern Turkey – putting aside the Kurdish issue – owe much to one single man called Ataturk. He was a visionary and great leader who among many other things saw the need to separate religion from the state and strove to turn Turkey into a modern, democratic and flourishing country. His legacy and work is the basis of most Turkish achievements of modern Turkey.
Mostly he allowed Turkey to proudly maintain its religion, traditions and customs while advancing towards Europe as a western country. Turkey was extremely close to becoming an EU member only until a couple of years ago.
Israel was a great friend and ally to Turkey, having Turkey as its biggest arms buyer and most popular tourist destination. Relations between the countries grew steadily over the last few decades to a solid friendship. However all that changed in 2003 to the sadness of many, when Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was elected PM. I could say many things about this guy… his lack of manners, his fundamentalist streak, his enormous ego, his decision making choices and almost embarrassing love for Iran’s Ahmedinajad… but this caused several main things; Turkey is no longer a candidate to join the EU, Turkey has drifted into the world-hating arms of Iran, Turkey lost its great ally and partner in Israel and mostly… Turkey has moved away from Ataturk’s vision.
As much as Ataturk was a great man with a spirit like few leaders ever in human history, Erdoğan is an idiot on the same scale as Ataturk’s greatness. He turned Turkey into a fundamentalist heaven and breeding ground for Shiite terror. He exposed the population to unbelievable and deliberate anti-Israeli, anti-American, anti-western culture waves, he instituted more religious laws then any previous Turkish PM and is standing firmly behind this whole incident of today. For us Israelis I hope he dies in a freak yachting accident and for my Turkish friends; I hope they find a better PM asap, so they can erase this idiot Erdoğan’s mistakes and regain the legacy of Ataturk.
8. Closing: If you have read all this, then I applaud you and apologise if you fell asleep half way through :) . I hope I managed to convey some of my and my fellow Israeli sentiments about this although being Israelis, they each have 5 opinions each about every subject I mentioned here above. I do not claim to represent any or all of them. I hope I avoided all references of anti-Semitism or the holocaust so some of you hypocrite touchy types won’t blame me for connecting all things to these subjects and witness that most Israeli modern arguments are free of these issues despite what some of you might want to infer. If my words offended anyone for whatever reason, I apologise and will respect any counter arguments if they are brought forth with the same amount of respect for this forum and discussion as my effort here.
PEACE
When an israeli soldier is killed it is terrorism.
When 100 civilians are killed in retaliatory attacks it is self-defence.
When 100 civilians are killed in retaliatory attacks it is self-defence.
Who said that and were?
If you can't make an argument and just throw slogans in the air, please find another more age appropriate place to debate.
...and btw, I'm not making excuses. The life of one Israeli soldier is worth the lives of 50000 of our enemies... it's about the equal ratio of population!
If you can't make an argument and just throw slogans in the air, please find another more age appropriate place to debate.
...and btw, I'm not making excuses. The life of one Israeli soldier is worth the lives of 50000 of our enemies... it's about the equal ratio of population!
Yeah we had a problem like that recently in Thailand, where evil violent terrorist redshirts attacked soldiers with dangerous slogans and sticks of mass destruction, forcing the soldiers to reluctantly defend themselves with heavy machineguns and grenade launchers, and when the violent anti-monarchy terrorists threatened the safety of the soldiers by refusing to run away quickly enough, armour had to be brought in.
Kill count was
Kill count was
Don't worry, at the rate you're going you won't be short of enemies.