Subject: »Gaza sea convoy incident

yeah, ok, that is a possibility. And even then. That doens't say 'self defence', but war crime or something slightly lighter that shows what kind of mindset lives inside the IDF.

Actually, I think something like that went off.

Then the question remains; why did they border those ships?

anyway, it is a good thing some credible witnesses were aboard the vessels. When hamas or the un talk about witnessing war crimes, isreal puts their complains besides them. But a member of the european parliament, well at least they can alienate themselves a little bit more from the rest of the world. Or admit their mistake.

check for weapons. and control what materials get inside the gaza strip.

Isn't that what customs are for?

it's a warzone

and it is a bit more complex than that.

If I understand the situation correctly, israel, egypt and plenty of other groups (europe as well, I think) don't want hamas in power. So they (israel and egypt and possibly other countries as well) limit the amount of goods that get inside the gaza strip. The hope exists that this will destabilize the hamas government of gaza and allow fatah to grasp power again. In a way, I used to think this was a neat plan as well (as long as I don't have to live there under those conditions, of course). Unfortunately this makes the people of gaza suffer enourmously and unfortunately this blockade doens't seem to have any real effects. I was hoping some of the israeli (or a palestine, lol) to give me some insights in this. Esp. what the long term planning in these are.

How to create a healthy society on something what has basicly become a garbage dump, for example.
Or how to create friendly minded neigbours when the only visible image of those neighbours is that of oppression? It's a simple fact that they won't see the israeli's as nice, no matter how unfair those this might deem. Same goes the other way, of course.
(edited)

I don't say hamas is a friendly and good organisation, absolutely not. But not hamas but Israel is punishing over a million people by their wall and blockades. It's very clear who is suppressed, right? It aren't jews that are dying in Israel because of the wall and blockades. So both are wrong doesn't mean you can't punish the main aggressor.

You're post, unfortunatly, is a good example of the dutch opinion about Israel. Most dutch are still blinded by decades support to Israel. Not that long ago, every year 12 points from Israel at the Euro Vision. Why do you think this was? Also we always see the same comments on the dutch news when something happens over there. Yes Israel is bad but bla bla bla ..... always the same kind of excuses, made by the same people. Our zionic minister of Foreign Affairs Verhage is the best example, always excuses and lies why Israel is allowed to attack and kill. He did it also yesterday and today. And at International Conferences the Netherlands always walk away when someone from Iran starts about Israel. Is also no coincidence. etc etc. My point is, most dutch believe the zionic lies they hear or are influenced by them, and most can't let go Israel-Jews-WW2-Holocaust-Support, it's almost if we are born with it.

The problem are the Germans, If Hitler wouldn't have existed, Israel wouldn't be completely forced to do this.

Now there is no other possible solution. Blame the Germans

Today I read like 20 pages of stupid arguments from both sides. if i make a list of stupid arguments read here, mine is not even in the top 50.

I guess that no one will end up learning anything from this, Israel will keep doing what they do, Dumb is going to be Dumb, still everyone is trying to turn a really really complex problem into terrorist - no terrorist discussion.
The discussion always ends up in trying to define who threw the first rock.

IMO, as long as an aggressor has the feeling that is the victim, this will be endless.

must be the most sensible post i've read in this topic so far

I don't choose sides , I think both sides has some people up front that are messing things up . I mean what can the normale citizins of Israel and palestina do about this situation ? probaly nothing..

could be, but

IMO, as long as an aggressor has the feeling that is the victim, this will be endless.

I've read this more than enough times. You can't get stuck with saying this over and over again, sighing things must get better and that everybody must understand eachother...
And as soon as you want to leave this passivity, you cross some of the protagonists in this topic, who drag anything in a black and white discussion. And believe me if I say I don't want this.

Plenty of intelligent posts who went deeper than the superficial (but neccesary) statement of the key problem, above, went without response, while the cheap attacks were duly responded to.
If you want to get deeper into the subject, you need to ask the questions that hurt, and respond them alike. Not by giving some praise to passivity and condemning every post that might hurt someones feelings.

boycott Ajax Amsterdam ;)

could be, but

an online football manager game is not a place where it's probably to have such a good discussion, that's just unrealistic expectations on your behalf :)

Boycott Turkish, because they are killing kurds.
Boycott Canada, because they are killing seals.
Boycott USA, because Irak.
Boycott EU, because they are mistreating alien immigrants and they are cutting salaries.
Boycott arabs/muslims countries, because they kill gay people and they misstreat women.
Boycott southamerica countries, because the way they treat aboriginal people.
Boycott China, because they are oppressors of the Tibet people.
Boycott African countries, because they have child soldiers.


I could keep going. If you want to boycott why the palestinian is more valuable than the Coya in Argentina north or than the Kurdish in Turkey?
My grandfather knew the answer: B4673.

As far as I know the forum rules doesn't allow political discussions, but it think they make a exception sometimes.

Exactly, sometime i get dragged into this discussions and then I realize that this forum is not a great place for discussing this type of topics, I mean I like reading what people think, but to be realistic, this game is played by 11 year old kids, grown ups that act like 11 year old kids, Dumb, people that amuse themselves just pissing off other users, people that actually want to discuss something seriously, fanatics, etc. So you can't expect to get some value out of it.

Do you think that Israeli people don't feel ashamed of what just happened. The users that are going to post here are the ones that somehow feel that they have a reason the behave like this. If I feel ashamed of what my country did (and I am sure that many Israeli are) I won't come here and start posting about it, and read all the hate that is against Israel, and read all the things that were written here.