Subject: »Gaza sea convoy incident

Exactly, sometime i get dragged into this discussions and then I realize that this forum is not a great place for discussing this type of topics, I mean I like reading what people think, but to be realistic, this game is played by 11 year old kids, grown ups that act like 11 year old kids, Dumb, people that amuse themselves just pissing off other users, people that actually want to discuss something seriously, fanatics, etc. So you can't expect to get some value out of it.

Do you think that Israeli people don't feel ashamed of what just happened. The users that are going to post here are the ones that somehow feel that they have a reason the behave like this. If I feel ashamed of what my country did (and I am sure that many Israeli are) I won't come here and start posting about it, and read all the hate that is against Israel, and read all the things that were written here.

Yeah now you are talking about the seals ;)

Why now a boycot? No reason just profiling i guess

boycott the boycotters because they beycotted israel who were boycotted by a dutch boycotter.

I really want some decent answers. I remember the discussion around the Georgian war, in which we acted less mature than this one and I fondly think back to a certain serb who gave his entire view on the yugoslavian war, after which I had to admit I knew far less about it than my newsmedia had let me believe to. And that was even after we made fun of him. I hope there is an israeli who can give me the same pleasant experience.
After all, it is only through understanding eachother that we can learn anything. If there is a palestine whose generator is still giving some juice, please join in. Bad jokes are allowed, btw.

1) First and foremost, this one.
As a captian you problably can tell me (or can't, of course) how it is possible to accidentally miss a suspected terrorist with an attack helicopter and shoot into a nearby building? And I don't automatically blame the pilots in this hypothetical example, maybe the people in charge didn't think this as a priority... But I've seen bombs of the americans and vids of helicopter attacks who could target a single room or a single guy with a mortar in a busy street. What's the difficulty in trying not to shoot into a school?
Also, why not a clean sniper shot instead of a full on rocket strike on a car in the middle of rush hour?
I don't think western propaganda is to blame for israel's image of crowd control.
I ask this because the cornerstone of israeli PR is that they care about civilians as much like any other civilised country. The biggest problem people have with israel, however, is that they show as little concern about civilians as any non-civilised country. Put aside that in the west it is traditional to trial someone before executing, this hypothetical situation seems to be smack in the middle of the paradox. What do israeli's think about this? And please, stay away from 'he deserved it, he killed children' (and I don't use this disclaimer to mock you, but because I know you)

2) Long term plans with the neighbourhood.
Peace loving and understanding human beings that we all are, we fully admit that nobody is without faults and that nobody is evil at their core. With nobody being satan incarnate and stuff like that, I assume Israeli's plan to live with arabs as their friendly neighbours. Actually, I am totally blind at this matter. A few flag occasional burnings aside, I assume most arabs don't want to destroy israel and that it is mostly iran supported/hamas governed countries or regions that present any real threat. How does that work out?
On top of that, intelligent as we are, we admit that the biggest influence on how you view your neighbouring countries is influenced by how your country views that country. And nobody never really hates it anyway. In broader terms, their view about your country is moldalbe. Someone is as much responsible for their own image as the slander someone else might bring about them. What is israel doing to get itself some good PR? Trick question follows: is israels foreign policy worth it in terms of PR? Think about it and give 3 advantages of its policy and 3 disadvantages. And suchandsuch. I'm not interested in your view, I'm interested in how you support your views. I told you it was a trick question.

3) Third. Langhe was quick to point this out, but it didn't get picked up in the discussion. Jews around the world (unfortunately at least the ones who get chosen as spokesperson, they rarely to the israeli cause any good) blame any negative press on an unfair bias against them. I am very curious about this. Intelligent beings as we are, we all feel this turns into some kind of a joke, isn't it? Is there some way you can explain this, without using the word 'anti'?

4) How would you fix the situation with gaza? (and how is the west bank these days? our unbiased media shuts up about this. Must be going pretty well then, I presume?) I know some of the israeli's openly talk about driving into the sea. I know you aren't one of them. And no, this isn't an implicating question.

5) This one is really dirty, I admit. But I have to understand. Why is it that we have to understand that israel is allowed to use force to defend itself and to generally achieve its goals, while we have to understand at the same time that it is a provocation when somebody else does it?
Make this answer conform our non-israeli belief system (ie. we're not living inside your country, so its prevailing is not life-dependent).

it's one of the better places on the internet to do this, actually.
I wish mr. Roqfist would come down of his sulking rock and be the officer and the gentleman he presents himself to be;)

now there is a good point. True.

Anyway, I am more interested how a reasonable intelligent person can defend actions like this. Last time, with the gaza war, I ended up smarter too. So why not another round of debate?

We all want to have peace and grow our children into pink future,none of us is happy to send his kid when he arrive 18yo to the army instead of collage.

But when this teard was opened (though he should not be allowed) and I read some lies and hate posts, I feel its my duty to show the other side of the story too, so that some of the readers will not get the wrong picture.

believe me that we are feel sorry for every innocent victim even if he is not Israei.

maybe you should make a 'international policy - politics' association ;)

because I wouldn't fit in there. I'm just a tourist :)

@guy fink: peace is a process, not a word. Staying passively at home doesn't do anything. How would you actively persue this peace? If you had the time and the means of course;)
(edited)

But when this teard was opened (though he should not be allowed)

I could be wrong, but usually I have read several religious-political discussions here, haven't seen those closed while it was a kind of reasonable discussion on them.

The saddest thing that is nothing more to do by our side in my opinion, maybe when the Palestinians take over the Hamas leadership there will be any future.

I read through all this thread. Despite all my efforts I failed to find even one comment from you where you accept any argument that does not conform with your opinion.

You see videos, and you find a way to explain how they are staged
You receive reference to proven opposing staged videos and you ignore the fraud and use it as fact

You will keep writing for ever that the people on the ship where humanitarians, even though you clearly see that they would lynch other human beings with no hesitation if they had it their way.
At the same time you accuse the attacked soldiers for massacre.

I would just add that piece on TV, that documented the command room on one of the Israeli boats. They saw in real time all what you see on the video, they were in tight contact with the soldiers on the ship, tehy saw the troop being dropped to the lower deck, they saw the attacks with the rods, but the soldiers on the ship did not draw their pistols before they were prompted to defend themselves by their supervisors. This is why there were only 9 people dead.

If the "humanitarians" did not really want to KILL (it takes a ot of hatry to do what you prefer to admit seeing), no one of them would have been hurt. They planned it. They had no peace in their minds, and were not prepared for peaceful actions

Now for the general situation

There is no organization, nation, country, or community or even the UN that takes active care of Gaza citizens more than Israel

Before you roll on the floor laughing, please read.

Electricity to Gaza comes from Israel. They however bomb the nearby power station with missiles.
Food and medical goods come on permanent basis through the border crossings. So is fuel and other materials.
The same crossings are also the gates to export Gaza products to Israel and other markets. Yes - even to the sea port of Ashdod, where the ship parks.
These crossings are also used for Gaza people to get to Israeli hospitals and get full medical treatment.

The only occassions where these crossings are blocked are when the Hamas strikes them.

I never heard a comment from about throwing missiles on civilian cities. Would you do anything different in your country, other than to try and block their weapons supply?

If you want to disscuss rationally and intelligently, I expect that you comment on these points, that might shed some other light on your arguments that seem to me too rigidly pre-opinionated

So far you took the easy way. Every such fact is referred by you as propaganda. Sometimes you are kind to us and say that we are fed with dis-information.

FWIW, I have a lot of criticism on our side as well. However I would share it only with people who seem to be able to mutually share their doubs just as well.

when the discussion is motivated by the wish t get more knowledge and based on decent argument its ok, but when the fuel is pure hate and false arguments it should not be allowed imo.

some of the people here that offended Israel is doing it with acceptable arguments, but the majority do it from hate

okéy very good but why engage the ships in international waters, that's piracy!

Just a single additional question

Do you know that ALL palestinian prisoners receive visits from families and lawyers? DO you know that they are also under supervision of the international red cross?

Did you know that the humanitarians boldly refused to the request to attempt and meet (if they get through) an Israeli soldier prisoner, that rots somewhere in Gaza for 4 years without any of the above?

wowowow the emprisoned soldier was caught by Hamas, they are not humanitarians!!!