Subject: Intelligent Political Discussion Thread

why do you keep chatting with these how come only to attack ?
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Because I think it is a waste and a shame.
Chuck in his heart is a good chap. He is just misinformed and beligerent/Stubborn.
I wish to rescue him mostly from himself :)


Seriously, I really think that even opposing views and even enemies - which I think Chuck is NOT - should be given an answer. The answer might be hurtful at times, but he desrves an answer and our effort to give him our full point of view, even if he disrespects it or acting ugly.

however, it would be a tiny bit unfair of me to entirely ignore what you've written there, since you hint at something interesting. There are indeed differences between the opinions within the israeli side. Although you can't blame the rest of the world of not recognizing that fully. Sometimes (it seems like) the israeli hide themselves under the flag of their religion, sometimes some of them claim secularity, while still adhering to the relgious book as a last resort (when ultimately defending why israel should be for the jews, for example), jumping back to secularity when you try to catch on them, claiming it as a cultural thing, not a religious thing... It would help if it showed some consistency.
Being secular means keeping religion argumentation out of the cultural discussion. Secularity means that you try to see your culture as a-religious, IMO. There might be some more nuances to this (probably), but I don't see how mixing those two, culture and relgion, makes a case for secularity. Again IMO, the claim for secularity is just an excuse to legitimise political claims. I wish to see a more clear differentiation between the two before I accept that secularity.

Not helping your case is that, sooner or later, more orthodox (or less nuanced, the distinction is never very clear, not only in this case) will jump in the discussion and add leave out several nuances in previous made arguments, while the more secular won't distance themself from that publicly.
Pretty much for the same reason stated above, this does not help to make us see a distinction between the groups summed up above. Probably the above mentioned effect of 'high status minority under a threat' has a influence in this, but this is not something we have to sort out for you. Mind you, we have the same problems when we try to deal with muslims in our own country too. So this is not some kind of theoretical exercise.

And to conclude: dude, zionism is just plain bad ok. No matter how they dress up the package, it stems from the same ideas as nazism. Basicly just substitute 'no jews in europe' for 'no arabs in israel'. I'm not saying you support this (I'm sure that it is very much the opposite!), but I know very well how well extreme rightwing groups can dress up their true goals inside modern messages. I can only advise you never to choose their side. Very very bad people.

"Seriously, I really think that even opposing views and even enemies - which I think Chuck is NOT - should be given an answer. The answer might be hurtful at times, but he desrves an answer and our effort to give him our full point of view, even if he disrespects it or acting ugly. "

So nice of you to speak of me so kindly while trying nothing not to insult me at the same time.

Do you know what's the name of part of the area that called the West Bank ?
Judea and Samaria.
You can figure out who lives in that area and why it is called Jehea .

During the occupation of the Ottoman Empire the Jews were expelled from many parts of Israel, instead of them came Arab from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria and more to work here for Ottoman Empire and it continued during the British Mandate here , the Arabs demanded that the Britons make it harder Conditions for Jews to return to Israel .
The British Empire also decided to give away the area now called Jordan to the Hashemis that were lived in Saudi Arabia for gift for there help to them , this territory is the real home for the Arab so called Palestinies today .
As I said before the Arab language doesn't contain the diction/letter "P" ,Arabs have "F" but not "P" , so you understand that the Palestine nation is invented to take more territory from the Jews .
Israel is willing to divide the country again and give them this area too, although the Arabs have so much space around and only a small part left to us , but they refuse that too and demanding more and more .

Chuck, the fact that I WANT to explain, even to you, our point of view doesn't mean that you are special. The same effort would be given to anyone who invested as much time and effort in this thread regardless of opinion. The insults are mild and are mostly in jest unlike your either maliciously deliberate or plain ignorant views.

I tell you that the word Zionist/Zionism which is a Hebrew word, in my language NOT yours, means the wish for Jews to have their homeland in Israel, deservedly or not. Yet you insist on telling me that it means something totall different. I never knew you are a semite languages linguist as well. Making comparisons to Nazism because it serves your purpose/argument is the only thing you do.

If I tell you that the word 'Belge' in Flemish or Belgian French - according to the rules of the Belgian government - means 'official paedophile', it will be just as sensible or knowledgable.

The word Zionist comes from the word Zion, which is just another name for the Land of Israel. The name it held before the Romans called this province Palestine after an extinct tribe of Pheonician sailors, which settled on the coast around of area of modern day Ashdod (the port city where the Marmara boat was brought to).

Thus the meaning of the word Zionist - as unfortunate as it might be for your argumentation - does not mean Nazism, or Appartheid, or any other negative or derogatory usage you might want to give it.

You can learn something new or stick to the more safe paradigm of using the words 'Jew', 'Zionist' and such to serve your purpose. Or... you can improve your vucabolary and knowledge and perhaps try a different avenue of argumentation.

I'm still here
XO ... ;-)

Our supreme court former president is one of the well respected judges in the world, he is being quoted on many verdicts of other nations.
We dont have a bias media, our media is one of the most destructive media in the world.
Our laws and constitution wont let any thing other then the truth to get out, meanwhile the media of the world is using photos that was "handled" with out so much as a sorry. our media uses those pictures to but at least our media has the decency to issue its mistakes. Almost no channel of the media showed the video released by Israel of that incident.

There is no humanitarian crisis at Gaza, we bring in food electricity and all that is needed.

A blockade is justified when Hamas is shooting from Gaza every day missiles at Israeli cities.
Big difference between Hamas and Israel, we shoot at terrorist who are involved in terrorists attacks, they fire their missiles to hit civilians.

You need to open you eyes(I know you feel the same way about me), and realize I am leaving in a democracy, human rights is above any thing else around here.

As I said before the Arab language doesn't contain the diction/letter "P" ,Arabs have "F" but not "P" , so you understand that the Palestine nation is invented to take more territory from the Jews .

Omg, you're serious about this? Look, you know how Palestina is called by Arabs? They call it Falasṭīn, written فلسطين in Arab. It is the Arab form of Palaestina he name was used by Romans after the rebellion of the Jews against the Roman Empire. And it comes form the Philistines, because those were enemies of Jews in the past, so that was an insult for the Jews. So saying that the Arabs don't have the letter "P" is just not relevant.

Edit: by the way, I just say this to show you that that is not an argument at all, although I'm not interested in what you say when you're talking black/white only. And I'd like an answer to this specific matter, without you saying how good the Jews are and Arabs are pure evil.

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Filistines? Weren't that the guys who were chased out of the promised lands by the jews? Well, now that we are talking about historical claims... :)

Yes, but the Philistines don't exist any more. It was just to show his argument is ridiculous.

It's my basic understanding that after WWII, a Israeli state and a Palestinian state were set up by the British and Jerusalem was supposed to be shared but Palestine wouldn't agree to it. Now I may be entirely wrong on this but didn't Israel then steal what was Palestinian land some time in the 60's? 6 day war or something? I forget. Someone unbiased fill me in.
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So if Philistines don't exist any more why the Arabs use that name and say that they are Philistines ? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan

I don't know the text in Wikipedia ( isn't very reliable ), but the maps are correct.

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That is not an answer on my question. I'm not interested in a conversation with you about who is right and wrong ( both exist on both sides ), but why do begin to talk about the F and P in Arab if you don't know anything about that? It looks to me that you are the one who is wrongly informed or is just making something up ( in this context ).

:D

I gave a link to that song allready , but it's a great one :)

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