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Subject: Intelligent Political Discussion Thread
a christian should not help only christian people. That is just the main message of the blieve help all people without making difference between etnic or religion.
I think it is more important to do something at the conflict so they can return to their houses.
Ok, I agree there are not enough international efforts to solve the conflict.
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I think it is more important to do something at the conflict so they can return to their houses.
Ok, I agree there are not enough international efforts to solve the conflict.
(edited)
Give me the site where you read it, cuz that never happened.
Those "Peace activists" had at least two pistols and they took the guns of the soldiers they tried to kill and started shooting at the troops.
The only big problem is we used paint ball guns allowing our soldiers to get kidnapped by the "peace activists". once they kidnapped 4 soldiers shooting to kill was the right option.
I dont know what about you, I will never raise my hand with iron bars and knives on a peace mission, but thats just me I am funny that way.
Those "Peace activists" had at least two pistols and they took the guns of the soldiers they tried to kill and started shooting at the troops.
The only big problem is we used paint ball guns allowing our soldiers to get kidnapped by the "peace activists". once they kidnapped 4 soldiers shooting to kill was the right option.
I dont know what about you, I will never raise my hand with iron bars and knives on a peace mission, but thats just me I am funny that way.
One was shoot 9 times, never hear about 30+ bullets.
I told you before but you ignored it,
What do you think of their educational system,
Do you really believe that someone who teach his kids that Israel is the Satan and must be wipe into the ocean really want true peace?
oops, not you personally but others here
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I told you before but you ignored it,
What do you think of their educational system,
Do you really believe that someone who teach his kids that Israel is the Satan and must be wipe into the ocean really want true peace?
oops, not you personally but others here
(edited)
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1281/Israel-Palestina/article/detail/1114523/2010/06/05/Lichamen-slachtoffers-Free-Gaza-doorzeefd-met-kogels.dhtml
is a belgian news site. If you really want you can translate with google :)
is a belgian news site. If you really want you can translate with google :)
It's the same as te ships not willing to board in Ashdod and move their aid via tracks.
P R O P A G A N D A
P R O P A G A N D A
the task of the un is to let return refugees to their houses on a safe way. Why they should go to another country?
To live better.
Is incredible, typical European arrogance (almost as bad as the American, but I like the Americans better). You want to have 3 meals a day, having cars, having computer, etc. and you are not willing to let someone else go to your country and try a better life.
When Europe was in crisis lot of people left Europe and went to America (South and North).
You are lucky to have several meals a day and not to have to walk several blocks for drinkable water like lots of people has to do in Africa (and in some places in South America).
You are not willing to help them in their countries (you don't want to send money there because of the corruption), and you don't want them to go there. What can they do?
To live better.
Is incredible, typical European arrogance (almost as bad as the American, but I like the Americans better). You want to have 3 meals a day, having cars, having computer, etc. and you are not willing to let someone else go to your country and try a better life.
When Europe was in crisis lot of people left Europe and went to America (South and North).
You are lucky to have several meals a day and not to have to walk several blocks for drinkable water like lots of people has to do in Africa (and in some places in South America).
You are not willing to help them in their countries (you don't want to send money there because of the corruption), and you don't want them to go there. What can they do?
The task of UN is mainly to find a better life for the refugee, since the UN has no army it has no intention of returning them to their own country
A Christian should help everyone, but you are not willing to help them, when they are persecuted because of their faith?
There is no effort at all in Sudan. Nobody cares, is not in the newspaper.
There is no effort at all in Sudan. Nobody cares, is not in the newspaper.
There are sources of information you blindly accept as facts
There are sources of information you blindly accept as lies
You count the bullets you were informed on the intrnet by someone in Belgium (who probably has the same attitude as you display here, but who knows which sorces he quotes).
You refer to this information as proof of killing intention by Israel
The soldiers started to shoot only 10 minutes after the lynch started.
Why do you not count that as a proof of another intention?
(edited)
There are sources of information you blindly accept as lies
You count the bullets you were informed on the intrnet by someone in Belgium (who probably has the same attitude as you display here, but who knows which sorces he quotes).
You refer to this information as proof of killing intention by Israel
The soldiers started to shoot only 10 minutes after the lynch started.
Why do you not count that as a proof of another intention?
(edited)
In belgium live 350 people in a square kilometer, in canada 3,4.
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Look at the videos we gave you of soldiers getting stabbed, lynched and thrown off deck.
Look at the Aljazhira reporter of how the "peace activists" kidnapped 4 soldiers, I am sure some will upload it for you.
Not that it will help, you will see it Israel propaganda and flat lies.
I am sure people here can give you movies of how the alter photos and movies of previous wars.
Look at the Aljazhira reporter of how the "peace activists" kidnapped 4 soldiers, I am sure some will upload it for you.
Not that it will help, you will see it Israel propaganda and flat lies.
I am sure people here can give you movies of how the alter photos and movies of previous wars.
Israel is one of the densest countries in the world. in 2006 we had 343 people in a square km.
Now please dont forget we have a large desert that covers almost half of our country. which makes our country even more dense than it is.
Now please dont forget we have a large desert that covers almost half of our country. which makes our country even more dense than it is.
For thoise who blindly accept low level propaganda, I would like to inform you that there are things you will not see.
The IDF decided to not release videos that show what happened to the 4 troops who were kidnapped by the "innocent peaceful humanitarians"
The decision was to refrain from showing how human beings are stripped naked, thoroughly beaten by dozens of activists, wounded and crying for people to stop
It could have served Israel, for example by providing a proof that the activists took the pistols and used them. But this was at the price of showing humiliating scene.
Besides, for some of you here, it would not make a difference anyway.
The IDF decided to not release videos that show what happened to the 4 troops who were kidnapped by the "innocent peaceful humanitarians"
The decision was to refrain from showing how human beings are stripped naked, thoroughly beaten by dozens of activists, wounded and crying for people to stop
It could have served Israel, for example by providing a proof that the activists took the pistols and used them. But this was at the price of showing humiliating scene.
Besides, for some of you here, it would not make a difference anyway.
BTW 350 for a km is still low. look at New York which has more than 1000 people for a square km
Hmm... it looks like points 'style' is in fashion now... :)
1. @Nin - I completely stand behind my earlier post to Chuck and Rubinho. It's very easy to be ignorant and sit back in comfy Europe and bitch, criticise and complain about others. Whenever a fact is presented it is immediately denounced as Israeli propaganda, never mind their monopoly on truth from so many miles away, but the annoying thing is their complete inability to grasp the fact that for some of us it is first hand experience and everyday reality. This also on top of rather unfortunate, dumb and insistant comparisons to nazi Germany, Appartheid or other such things totally unrelated.
2. @yosarian - I am impressed by your ardent objectivity and pressure on all participants to take similar measures in this discussion compared to other totally ignored issues worldwide. I am not always certain that your reasoning is fool-proof but you certainly make good points. You are perhaps one of the more open minded poeple here perhaps because you do not support any side in particular. I respect that.
3. ohad talks about the Peace deal and offer made by Ehud Barak (our current Security Minister then PM) to Yasser Arafat in Camp David in the presence of Bill Clinton in 2000. Actually only 94% was offered of the entire area the Palestinians want - the entire west bank and gaza strip plus the remaining 6% in adjecent areas only so a couple of Israeli towns wont have to be evacuated from areas adjecent to Jerusalem. Also Arafat was offered return of most (over 90%) refugees, excluding those active members of terrorist organisations and a form of combined international custody over parts of Jerusalem. Arafat rejected the offer and a month after that summit a wave of bus bombings in Israel ensued.
Ever since the Palestinians became a politically recognised negotiations partner, say in the last 20 years or so, they have received the Gaza Strip (now an Iranian colony), big chunks of the west bank with an active democracy and more is done every day. However what did we get in return? nothing. You need to consider the facts that we think we are giving up our land for this 'peace', we have our own internal politics and difficulties including the evacuation and rehousing of hunderds of thousands of people and that our security situation has not improved at all.
4. We (us Israelis AND most westerners) are well and fully aware of the Muslim-Arab mentality regarding not just Israel, but human rights in general and how their countries are managed and run. 20+ countries with over 500m people and not a snigle democracy in sight. Israel has Arab-Mulsim parliament members demonstrating exactly the opposite - full freedom and democracy. Much of the European fear of the Arab-Muslim world is translated into actions designed to try and appease the Arab world at Israel's expense, which is and will continue to be a wholly futile exercise. Soon enough, quite a few European countries will have so many related problem at home, that being sorry for maltreatment of Israel now will be too little too late. Even Barak Obama has now realised that, and in the last couple of months completely changed his policies.
5. On top of having the issue of the Palestinians as amodern made up nation, born due to the arbitrary division of chunks of the world between the British and the French,... the second strong influence was indirectly given at the collapse of the USSR. Before the collapse the western world couldn't care less about the Arabs, especially the Palestinians who lived quite happily in Israel. On the other side they were mass slaughtered in Jordan and Syria and generally badly treated in the Arab countries. The Israeli Arabs (including the now separated Palestinians) had the highest standard of living in the Arab world - more roads, hospitals and schools per capita than any other Arab country. The western world held Israel in high regard after its victories in the Six Das War (1967) and the Yom Kippur War (1973) and Israel was considered the only democratic western bastion opposed to the USSR domination of the Arab countries, especially with regard to strategic control of the oil fields.
However, after the Soviet collapse and the new alliances between Euope and the USA to the now soviet free Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others, the Arabs themselves wanted to get rid of the Palestinians living in their territory and kept as a niusance (and cheap work force) in refugee camps. Israel was not strategically required any more and oil pressure on the USA and Europe was extended. No one really cares about the Palestinians, similar to what you hear truthfully in yosarian's posts regarding so many oppressed and abused other nations around the world, who suffer far more than the Palestinians. But the oil power of the Arabs makes their own wish to get rid of their own Palestinians an important issue for Europe and the west, and Israel's struggle for survival is just another sordid chapter in that annoying Jewish existence the world has to endure.
6. I would like to finish this post with a somewhat brighter tone saying this; a. You are all welcome to come here to Israel to witness first hand what is happening on both sides. There are many options and opportunities to travel to both sides of the conflict and see first hand... reality. I heartily recommend that as long as you visit both sides. There,... I encourage you to vist both sides and not just the Israeli one. b. When and if you are here in Israel, me casa as su casa (I apologise for the spelling) and my home is open to all. Nothing better than first hand accounts!
:)
1. @Nin - I completely stand behind my earlier post to Chuck and Rubinho. It's very easy to be ignorant and sit back in comfy Europe and bitch, criticise and complain about others. Whenever a fact is presented it is immediately denounced as Israeli propaganda, never mind their monopoly on truth from so many miles away, but the annoying thing is their complete inability to grasp the fact that for some of us it is first hand experience and everyday reality. This also on top of rather unfortunate, dumb and insistant comparisons to nazi Germany, Appartheid or other such things totally unrelated.
2. @yosarian - I am impressed by your ardent objectivity and pressure on all participants to take similar measures in this discussion compared to other totally ignored issues worldwide. I am not always certain that your reasoning is fool-proof but you certainly make good points. You are perhaps one of the more open minded poeple here perhaps because you do not support any side in particular. I respect that.
3. ohad talks about the Peace deal and offer made by Ehud Barak (our current Security Minister then PM) to Yasser Arafat in Camp David in the presence of Bill Clinton in 2000. Actually only 94% was offered of the entire area the Palestinians want - the entire west bank and gaza strip plus the remaining 6% in adjecent areas only so a couple of Israeli towns wont have to be evacuated from areas adjecent to Jerusalem. Also Arafat was offered return of most (over 90%) refugees, excluding those active members of terrorist organisations and a form of combined international custody over parts of Jerusalem. Arafat rejected the offer and a month after that summit a wave of bus bombings in Israel ensued.
Ever since the Palestinians became a politically recognised negotiations partner, say in the last 20 years or so, they have received the Gaza Strip (now an Iranian colony), big chunks of the west bank with an active democracy and more is done every day. However what did we get in return? nothing. You need to consider the facts that we think we are giving up our land for this 'peace', we have our own internal politics and difficulties including the evacuation and rehousing of hunderds of thousands of people and that our security situation has not improved at all.
4. We (us Israelis AND most westerners) are well and fully aware of the Muslim-Arab mentality regarding not just Israel, but human rights in general and how their countries are managed and run. 20+ countries with over 500m people and not a snigle democracy in sight. Israel has Arab-Mulsim parliament members demonstrating exactly the opposite - full freedom and democracy. Much of the European fear of the Arab-Muslim world is translated into actions designed to try and appease the Arab world at Israel's expense, which is and will continue to be a wholly futile exercise. Soon enough, quite a few European countries will have so many related problem at home, that being sorry for maltreatment of Israel now will be too little too late. Even Barak Obama has now realised that, and in the last couple of months completely changed his policies.
5. On top of having the issue of the Palestinians as amodern made up nation, born due to the arbitrary division of chunks of the world between the British and the French,... the second strong influence was indirectly given at the collapse of the USSR. Before the collapse the western world couldn't care less about the Arabs, especially the Palestinians who lived quite happily in Israel. On the other side they were mass slaughtered in Jordan and Syria and generally badly treated in the Arab countries. The Israeli Arabs (including the now separated Palestinians) had the highest standard of living in the Arab world - more roads, hospitals and schools per capita than any other Arab country. The western world held Israel in high regard after its victories in the Six Das War (1967) and the Yom Kippur War (1973) and Israel was considered the only democratic western bastion opposed to the USSR domination of the Arab countries, especially with regard to strategic control of the oil fields.
However, after the Soviet collapse and the new alliances between Euope and the USA to the now soviet free Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others, the Arabs themselves wanted to get rid of the Palestinians living in their territory and kept as a niusance (and cheap work force) in refugee camps. Israel was not strategically required any more and oil pressure on the USA and Europe was extended. No one really cares about the Palestinians, similar to what you hear truthfully in yosarian's posts regarding so many oppressed and abused other nations around the world, who suffer far more than the Palestinians. But the oil power of the Arabs makes their own wish to get rid of their own Palestinians an important issue for Europe and the west, and Israel's struggle for survival is just another sordid chapter in that annoying Jewish existence the world has to endure.
6. I would like to finish this post with a somewhat brighter tone saying this; a. You are all welcome to come here to Israel to witness first hand what is happening on both sides. There are many options and opportunities to travel to both sides of the conflict and see first hand... reality. I heartily recommend that as long as you visit both sides. There,... I encourage you to vist both sides and not just the Israeli one. b. When and if you are here in Israel, me casa as su casa (I apologise for the spelling) and my home is open to all. Nothing better than first hand accounts!
:)