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Subject: Intelligent Political Discussion Thread
I don't know how much gold/silver there actually was in south america and "who" enjoyed it. Well for example if there were 5 high guys in a country having all that fortune and it wasn't "spain" "france" or "england" itself that claimed and used this gold, then it is hard to legitimate official repayment from this countries to the countries that were abused.
But I think if you find enough evidence and data and sell it good and show that it is really needed, then you would stand a chance in making lots of private persons collecting money for it. :)
I mean frenchies also stole our state treasure centuries ago, but that is just nothing that we can "recollect" even if we knew if that was more than 2 cows and a sheep.
But I think if you find enough evidence and data and sell it good and show that it is really needed, then you would stand a chance in making lots of private persons collecting money for it. :)
I mean frenchies also stole our state treasure centuries ago, but that is just nothing that we can "recollect" even if we knew if that was more than 2 cows and a sheep.
Can I ask why you keep asking to South America?
Are we responsible for a king that lived long time ago? It was his own property, Belgian government had nothing to say there until Congo was given to the Belgian state.
Are we responsible for a king that lived long time ago? It was his own property, Belgian government had nothing to say there until Congo was given to the Belgian state.
Agree. We had to pay like RR said to a lot of rulers - going from Dutchies, over French to Spaniards, Austrians, ... I don't need any of that money back.
in fact that is crazy arguments. Aborigins can reclaim the gold, so spains can reclaim the gold that was there to the old roman empire i guess..
Europe extract millons worth of gold and silver from america and used that money to build the infractracture that most of Europe is enjoying now,
spain got lot of gold, but didnt manage well, it was big inflation because many gold, and there was not made any infraestructure with that money.
i mean, the highway i enjoy today, was not made in 1500 :P
spain got lot of gold, but didnt manage well, it was big inflation because many gold, and there was not made any infraestructure with that money.
i mean, the highway i enjoy today, was not made in 1500 :P
the only infrastructure that was build were churches(burgos etc) it's just after the reconquista so all spain needs to be christianized :p
You may be one of the nicest of Europe, but you still enjoy the gold/silver of south america without paying anything.
this might be true, but it is somewhat unrealistic to aks to move the 'gold/silver' back to its origins. It's better to start with small things. Make israeli's and arabs like eachother and forgive their mutual warcrimes. Continue living without a grudge. And to drive the knife deeper into it: it is far easier than make them give up their colonies outside israel than to ask for the SA gold back. That is what I meant with "one thing at a time". Smaller things first. "Next week" was a joke. The middle east is difficult as it is.
And further, on your SA claim on the gold/silver. You could argue that it belongs to the human race as a whole. SA's can't claim it just on the basis of accidentally have lived there. It is the heritage om humankind. And Europe borrowed it from the whole of the human race for the better good (not then in that time of course, but considering the effect it had on europe's economy and how it allowed europe to develop because of it). And considering how some civilisations have used their 'golden heritage' for silly stuff and all kind of vanity projects, europe has done relatively well with that human heritage. No need to thank us for it.
But that is only one way of looking at it, of course.
this might be true, but it is somewhat unrealistic to aks to move the 'gold/silver' back to its origins. It's better to start with small things. Make israeli's and arabs like eachother and forgive their mutual warcrimes. Continue living without a grudge. And to drive the knife deeper into it: it is far easier than make them give up their colonies outside israel than to ask for the SA gold back. That is what I meant with "one thing at a time". Smaller things first. "Next week" was a joke. The middle east is difficult as it is.
And further, on your SA claim on the gold/silver. You could argue that it belongs to the human race as a whole. SA's can't claim it just on the basis of accidentally have lived there. It is the heritage om humankind. And Europe borrowed it from the whole of the human race for the better good (not then in that time of course, but considering the effect it had on europe's economy and how it allowed europe to develop because of it). And considering how some civilisations have used their 'golden heritage' for silly stuff and all kind of vanity projects, europe has done relatively well with that human heritage. No need to thank us for it.
But that is only one way of looking at it, of course.
those who are interested in prison psychology should read up the stanford prison experiment :)
I don't want to start over the Israeli / Gaza thing but you guys might find this article interesting
HERE
HERE
seems like good compromise: ships get checked where they leave port (in presence of israeli deputy's, of course), monitored while shipping and deliver directly to gaza. Humanitarians happy, because they deliver the goods. Israel happy, because no guns get inside gaza.
This, however,
"That was not a love boat. That was a boat of hatred. It was not a peaceful flotilla. The soldiers who boarded the ships were attacked by clubs, batons and knives."
is a very silly argument. (even if not considering the illegality of the boarding action and the humanitarians had every right to defend themselves) If you enter any place that is populated with burly men with solid objects, who are unhappy with your suddens and unwanted presence, you get your ass kicked. This doesn't diminish anything of the main intention of the environment, nor will anybody follow any logic that tries to argue such thing. If someone looks at the bouncer of nightclub 'Beats of Love' in a funny way, he'll get thrown out, maybe with sticks and batons if he resists. But nobody will start thinking about the nightclub in a different way. Same goes for the 'Boats of Love'. Undesired Entrance = Exptected Beating.
(same goes for israeli nightclubs, btw)
But this is the key paragraph of that article:
"For years, many in the international community have been complicit in a policy that aimed at isolating Gaza in the hope of weakening Hamas," said the International Crisis Group, a think tank that denounced the Israeli action.
"This policy is morally appalling and politically self-defeating. It has harmed the people of Gaza without loosening Hamas' control. Yet it has persisted regardless of evident failure."
Discuss!
(edited)
This, however,
"That was not a love boat. That was a boat of hatred. It was not a peaceful flotilla. The soldiers who boarded the ships were attacked by clubs, batons and knives."
is a very silly argument. (even if not considering the illegality of the boarding action and the humanitarians had every right to defend themselves) If you enter any place that is populated with burly men with solid objects, who are unhappy with your suddens and unwanted presence, you get your ass kicked. This doesn't diminish anything of the main intention of the environment, nor will anybody follow any logic that tries to argue such thing. If someone looks at the bouncer of nightclub 'Beats of Love' in a funny way, he'll get thrown out, maybe with sticks and batons if he resists. But nobody will start thinking about the nightclub in a different way. Same goes for the 'Boats of Love'. Undesired Entrance = Exptected Beating.
(same goes for israeli nightclubs, btw)
But this is the key paragraph of that article:
"For years, many in the international community have been complicit in a policy that aimed at isolating Gaza in the hope of weakening Hamas," said the International Crisis Group, a think tank that denounced the Israeli action.
"This policy is morally appalling and politically self-defeating. It has harmed the people of Gaza without loosening Hamas' control. Yet it has persisted regardless of evident failure."
Discuss!
(edited)
For everybody except the Israelis this should be a good compromise.
To be honest I think this is a test. Be sure that if Israel attacks a ship that is being sent by an European Government we will have some big big issues...
To be honest I think this is a test. Be sure that if Israel attacks a ship that is being sent by an European Government we will have some big big issues...
I will now use the rhetoric so loved by our peace-loving neighbours both near (Palestinians) and far (Iranians) in making a personal statement:
I hope that the Rachel Corrie arrives in the International waters before and without any agreement made with the Israeli government, escorted by Irish (origin of voyage), Belgian (most vehement protagonists here) and mostly Turkish (voyage organisers) battle ships, without peace activists and sans aid, aiming purely to break the blockade over the Gaza strip. Aiming purely to show solidarity with the Palestinians and provide them with a safe sea passage.
You want to see Jewish control of the world banks, media and US government? You want to see brutally aggressive baby-murdering Israeli soldiers in action? You want to see the Zionist war machine pissing all over the Geneva convention? I hereby cordially invite the whole lot of you to make that experiment... by merely repeating the words of several posts in the previous thread.
Please do try!
Our ancestors fought back when yours were still swinging in the trees without an opposing thumb and will continue to do so when the dust settles over the remains of many other countries and nations, as happened before to Babylon, Assyria or The Ottoman Empire. As they say in ancient Chinese... Bring it on! ...only this time with a smile!
I hope that the Rachel Corrie arrives in the International waters before and without any agreement made with the Israeli government, escorted by Irish (origin of voyage), Belgian (most vehement protagonists here) and mostly Turkish (voyage organisers) battle ships, without peace activists and sans aid, aiming purely to break the blockade over the Gaza strip. Aiming purely to show solidarity with the Palestinians and provide them with a safe sea passage.
You want to see Jewish control of the world banks, media and US government? You want to see brutally aggressive baby-murdering Israeli soldiers in action? You want to see the Zionist war machine pissing all over the Geneva convention? I hereby cordially invite the whole lot of you to make that experiment... by merely repeating the words of several posts in the previous thread.
Please do try!
Our ancestors fought back when yours were still swinging in the trees without an opposing thumb and will continue to do so when the dust settles over the remains of many other countries and nations, as happened before to Babylon, Assyria or The Ottoman Empire. As they say in ancient Chinese... Bring it on! ...only this time with a smile!
thanks for adding this nice war rethoric to this polite discussion. There were a few simple questions you could have answered, but you went for the character defence instead. Nice.
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Also if we're already on this subject:
Starting tommorrw Israel will directly adopt all the manners and actions loved and practiced by the lovey, cute Palestinians and their supporters in Turkey, Syria and Iran... let alone Belgium or other European countries.
We will burn churches and defile Christian cemetaries
We will beat up in the street any non-Jewish persons
We will attack tourist busses and pilgrims coming to the holy places
We will attack and hurt the embassies and diplomatic reps of quite a few western countries
We will throw out of our Universities all (eg) Chinese, French or Argentinian students
We will brun books and products made in Holland, Spain and Mexico
...and this only inside Israel... wait till we pay attention to elsewhere. You think the Arabs are bad dealing with when you have to find explosives in your underground trains, terminals and ports?
...just wait till we start taking christian babies blood before passover again... then you'll have a party.
Starting tommorrw Israel will directly adopt all the manners and actions loved and practiced by the lovey, cute Palestinians and their supporters in Turkey, Syria and Iran... let alone Belgium or other European countries.
We will burn churches and defile Christian cemetaries
We will beat up in the street any non-Jewish persons
We will attack tourist busses and pilgrims coming to the holy places
We will attack and hurt the embassies and diplomatic reps of quite a few western countries
We will throw out of our Universities all (eg) Chinese, French or Argentinian students
We will brun books and products made in Holland, Spain and Mexico
...and this only inside Israel... wait till we pay attention to elsewhere. You think the Arabs are bad dealing with when you have to find explosives in your underground trains, terminals and ports?
...just wait till we start taking christian babies blood before passover again... then you'll have a party.
You personally can eff off!
You have been immature, snide and pathetic in your arguments.
You are extremely ignorant for you have never witnessed any of the things you claim to know about, have never done anything for anyone other than criticise online and basically are a condescending smug hypocritical prude.
You are a racist bigoted thinly veiled anti semite and we all know what happens to these people... sooner or later!
You have been immature, snide and pathetic in your arguments.
You are extremely ignorant for you have never witnessed any of the things you claim to know about, have never done anything for anyone other than criticise online and basically are a condescending smug hypocritical prude.
You are a racist bigoted thinly veiled anti semite and we all know what happens to these people... sooner or later!