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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
I'm a student of history.
a recommendation for you: mark mazower "the balkans" ;))
a recommendation for you: mark mazower "the balkans" ;))
And I really don't understand how anyone can accuse Croatians or Bosnians for killing people while defending their homes!!?? Were Germans the only ones killing people in WWII? Did Germans killed quarter of a million civilians by throwing an atomic bomb to Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And these bombs stil in the end saved more lives than they killed anyway. And stil the most important fact about WWII is who started it and why.
War is chaos! And Croatians and Bosnians did not have professional armies! That's why they even started fighting among themselves in Bosnia. We were even releasing prisoners to go fight on the frontline. That was a crazy time! And it is VERY important who drew arms first and why and we all know the answer to that! All other information are lies.
The number of victims from Croatian Helsinki Comittee are true. These guys are really brave and they don't lie though many Croatians consider them traitors (I don't). And these are very small numbers given the magnitude of the area set free during Operation Storm (Oluja). And there are also many Croatian soldiers that got killed by civilians shooting from their home and vice versa. So it's really difficult to tell which killings were really unjustifiable and which ones were self defence.
Hitler also started his war with the cleverly staged Gleiwitz incident. All things that you list here is just clever propaganda by Serbian media made during the war in order to incite hatred and anger and then easily recruit people to go fight in Croatia and Bosnia. The war was conceived by Memorandum of SANU and conducted by Milošević. And that's it! The only problem is that this was not a world war so very few people really care about the truth and the most convenient thing for everyone is to make this look like some sort of civil war. This would justify everyone (UN, EU, NATO etc.) for not getting involved much more actively and decisively much sooner.
War is chaos! And Croatians and Bosnians did not have professional armies! That's why they even started fighting among themselves in Bosnia. We were even releasing prisoners to go fight on the frontline. That was a crazy time! And it is VERY important who drew arms first and why and we all know the answer to that! All other information are lies.
The number of victims from Croatian Helsinki Comittee are true. These guys are really brave and they don't lie though many Croatians consider them traitors (I don't). And these are very small numbers given the magnitude of the area set free during Operation Storm (Oluja). And there are also many Croatian soldiers that got killed by civilians shooting from their home and vice versa. So it's really difficult to tell which killings were really unjustifiable and which ones were self defence.
Hitler also started his war with the cleverly staged Gleiwitz incident. All things that you list here is just clever propaganda by Serbian media made during the war in order to incite hatred and anger and then easily recruit people to go fight in Croatia and Bosnia. The war was conceived by Memorandum of SANU and conducted by Milošević. And that's it! The only problem is that this was not a world war so very few people really care about the truth and the most convenient thing for everyone is to make this look like some sort of civil war. This would justify everyone (UN, EU, NATO etc.) for not getting involved much more actively and decisively much sooner.
Your 'main industry' was aged and lost money instead of making it. The salaries you mention I cannot verify at this time, but it is a fact that all actual money making happened in Slovenia. It's not accidental that this is the ONLY country from the former Yugo. Fed. that does approach West. EU.
The salary information is a joke. We could buy a pair of shoes in Trieste from an average salary and that's it.
And it's not so much black and white that ONLY Slovenia was economically developed. Croatian economy was maybe 10-20% behind. The war has set us back for 30 years. And we will be in EU in exactly 2 years. We were already more ready than Bulgaria and Romania but we didn't enter because of political situation which was again related to the war.
The salary information is a joke. We could buy a pair of shoes in Trieste from an average salary and that's it.
And it's not so much black and white that ONLY Slovenia was economically developed. Croatian economy was maybe 10-20% behind. The war has set us back for 30 years. And we will be in EU in exactly 2 years. We were already more ready than Bulgaria and Romania but we didn't enter because of political situation which was again related to the war.
Solid historical research says otherwise.
What history did U read or not.
From Wiki:The first country to be known by this name was the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, which before 3 October 1929 was known as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. It was established on 1 December 1918 by the union of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.
Officially Yugo stoped to exist in 2003, it was reconstituted as a political union called the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro.
But i think Yugo stoped to exist in 1991 when war was started.
So I did not studei history but I m good in math.
1991-1918=73
If this is your primary field of knowledge, I m not sure U will pass on the exam:)
What history did U read or not.
From Wiki:The first country to be known by this name was the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, which before 3 October 1929 was known as the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. It was established on 1 December 1918 by the union of the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.
Officially Yugo stoped to exist in 2003, it was reconstituted as a political union called the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro.
But i think Yugo stoped to exist in 1991 when war was started.
So I did not studei history but I m good in math.
1991-1918=73
If this is your primary field of knowledge, I m not sure U will pass on the exam:)
i think his answer was reffered to Most of citizen were happy with this federation.
on the other side that some country sustains for a 73 years isn´t really good argument.
on the other side that some country sustains for a 73 years isn´t really good argument.
Be honest. Do U think that NATO protection is killing common people in Iraq, Serbia or today Libya
Yes, they do. War is no child play. The most important information is why they are doing it.
Tito was imprisoning and killing people to "save" Yugoslavia from democracy and keep himself as lifelong funloving president. His moto was: "Apres moi, le deluge."
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Tito was imprisoning and killing people to "save" Yugoslavia from democracy and keep himself as lifelong funloving president. His moto was: "Apres moi, le deluge."
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I already did pass the exams. Which were secondary to the actual research, by the way. I averaged an 8+ out of 10.
But of course, propaganda is obviously more trustworthy than serious research by all kinds of historians. Silly me for thinking otherwise. :P
But of course, propaganda is obviously more trustworthy than serious research by all kinds of historians. Silly me for thinking otherwise. :P
yeah. tell me then who was bombing and distroying vukovar, sarajevo, bihac, mostar... who made genocyde in srebrenica??? germans or americans or both of them???
I will fall in this ugly disscusion for a last time.
My answer to your question is: Who ethnic cleaned Serbs from Croatia ad Kosovo?Who did bombing Yugoslavia in 1999?
Come on man, I dont want to justified my nation, niether yuors. Both have suffered war.
I will fall in this ugly disscusion for a last time.
My answer to your question is: Who ethnic cleaned Serbs from Croatia ad Kosovo?Who did bombing Yugoslavia in 1999?
Come on man, I dont want to justified my nation, niether yuors. Both have suffered war.
I already did pass the exams. Which were secondary to the actual research, by the way. I averaged an 8+ out of 10.
But of course, propaganda is obviously more trustworthy than serious research by all kinds of historians. Silly me for thinking otherwise. :P
Do U sey that Wikipedia is lieing?
But of course, propaganda is obviously more trustworthy than serious research by all kinds of historians. Silly me for thinking otherwise. :P
Do U sey that Wikipedia is lieing?
1. Wikipedia is not a reliable source.
2. Where does he say something that would suggest Wikipedia is lying? He says historical sources say otherwise about your statement ('Most citizens were happy within Yugoslavia'). Wikipedia doesn't confirm nor deny that statement.
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2. Where does he say something that would suggest Wikipedia is lying? He says historical sources say otherwise about your statement ('Most citizens were happy within Yugoslavia'). Wikipedia doesn't confirm nor deny that statement.
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I say that wiki can be changed by anyone and is therefore suspect. Even worse, the moderation is known to have deleted factual correct entries. I won't say it is wrong by definition, just that I cannot afford to trust wiki. If you cite wiki as a source in any written piece, that will result in a fail.
I'm okay with your text, except for this part:
And these are very small numbers given the magnitude of the area set free during Operation Storm (Oluja).
It is the word "free" that caught my eye. That's why I'd like you to explain what you mean by 'free' before I react on this.
By the way, maybe it's a good idea not to use Bosnians but Bosniaks (which are the people you meant by using Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). As you have Croatian, Bosniak and Serbian Bosnians, using just Bosnians would make it complicated I think. It's 'easier' to talk about ethnicities than about nationalities concerning Balkan imo.
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And these are very small numbers given the magnitude of the area set free during Operation Storm (Oluja).
It is the word "free" that caught my eye. That's why I'd like you to explain what you mean by 'free' before I react on this.
By the way, maybe it's a good idea not to use Bosnians but Bosniaks (which are the people you meant by using Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). As you have Croatian, Bosniak and Serbian Bosnians, using just Bosnians would make it complicated I think. It's 'easier' to talk about ethnicities than about nationalities concerning Balkan imo.
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The entire mess is complicated beyond belief. :P One of the things we had to look into, was EU membership, or rather, what had to happen to make ascension come to pass for various countries. It took over 600 hours of college to even begin to understand the problems at hand.
@ all
This is not news, you are debatting an old war..... maybe make a topic named "Debat"... and we again could have some news in here??
This is not news, you are debatting an old war..... maybe make a topic named "Debat"... and we again could have some news in here??
It is the word "free" that caught my eye. That's why I'd like you to explain what you mean by 'free' before I react on this.
Operation Storm was a successful military action intended to free Croatian territory occupied by rebel Serbs which were being helped by Yugoslav Army. I actually don't understand why the word free caught your eye there. I mean, the whole war in Croatia was a war for freedom.
By the way, maybe it's a good idea to not use Bosnians but Bosniaks (which are the people you meant by using Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). As you have Croation, Bosniak and Serbian Bosnians, using just Bosnians would make it complicated I think.
Yes, you noticed it well. I should have written Bosniaks. Sorry about that.
Operation Storm was a successful military action intended to free Croatian territory occupied by rebel Serbs which were being helped by Yugoslav Army. I actually don't understand why the word free caught your eye there. I mean, the whole war in Croatia was a war for freedom.
By the way, maybe it's a good idea to not use Bosnians but Bosniaks (which are the people you meant by using Bosnians I believe, correct me if I'm wrong). As you have Croation, Bosniak and Serbian Bosnians, using just Bosnians would make it complicated I think.
Yes, you noticed it well. I should have written Bosniaks. Sorry about that.