Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD

It's nice to see people talking about what is good for us while you don't live here
Keep up

The Greek goverment crossed over the red line yesterday,there will be consequences for them.Severe consequences
Rubinho,i told you the last time we spoke in this topic that the plan was going to fail and guess what,it did
And the new one is going to fail for sure,it's only half measures
Driving people to poverty never helped a country produse money to pay back its loans

So keep up and continue believing that we are lazy and we like to strike :)

So keep up and continue believing that we are lazy and we like to strike :)

I never said you are lazy ... and yes, I do believe the Greek like to strike, it is quite a characteristic of southern European countries.

And me not being in Greece doesn't mean I can't give my opinion about it ;-)
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it's the only legal way to react when we are being screwed

And keep in mind that during the first loan the strikes were reduced,the Greek society if not supported,at least tolerated the budget cuts
But this is too much

And of course you can have an opinion about us,but it will always be biassed and one-sided
You can't know what's going on here,you only know what your media tell you
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So? Flat tax is the solution?

Striking won't help making money that's for sure but I can imagine the greeks have something of 'what does it help we are getting poorer anyway screw you'.

manuchao: you could also think 'hey let's deal with this and get over with this quickly ;)

I'm wondering whether and when the police will lose its nerve and start using severe force at the strikers..

Of course flat tax is not the solution for Greece, but I just wanted to point that out as you said the strongest shoulders etc.

Lowering the loans will help improving Greece's competitiveness. So yes, it will help to lower the loans.

And against those riots (people smashing windows etc. police can use force imo, as using violence doesn't fall under the right to strike and protest imo).

@ Manuchao: I beg to differ. People involved are biased too. The wealth Greece has had was surreal, it wasn't what the Greek 'deserved'. Now they have to pay for that. That the politicians lied is irrelevant imo.
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I'm still convinced that the strongest shoulders should carry the most..
Btw flat tax also is a progressive tax if there is a tax-free limit (which there probably is) so even in those countries the strongest shoulders carry the most..

For the rest of the discussion: I got 2 feelings about this: on one hand I feel sorry for them it must be hard and I want this to be over soon for them, but on the other hand it feels like they spit in our faces because of us lending money and still they strike and for that they should pay..

Driving people to poverty

The fact that you used the word poverty is a disgrace. Greek salaries are double than those in transition countries. So, even if they would be cut in half which is surely not happening, the Greek people would stil be very far from poor. Or are you saying that in Croatia, Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Poland live poor people? Anyway, even if that would be true, if this is the result of your economic politics, you need to accept it. People in Croatia, Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, Poland are not burning things in the street and they have half of Greek salaries.

And keep in mind that during the first loan the strikes were reduced,the Greek society if not supported,at least tolerated the budget cuts
But this is too much

Too much for Greek people and not enough for their creditors. Who is right?

They are already using severe force without any concern about the people that they are beating
We had a record at tear gas yesterday
not to speak about the provocation they are using,cops dressed as strikers attack the cops and the cops find the excuse to attack the strikers
There are reports of "strikers" with official police ID's arrested by other strikers

About dealing with it
The problem is known
We spend more than we produse
First step--->reduce your spending
Second step--->increase your production

Ok,good?
All Greek goverment has done since the first loan is step one,again and again
Reducing,reducing,reducing
The only thing that increases here are taxes
No plan to start produsing money,no measures to increase investments from abroad,no plan to reduse unemployment
Only increasing taxes with a totally unfair way
I can't make it simpler for you to understand people,it is wrong,it is incomplete,it won't help us

We can't support something that is wrong,that has already been proved that is wrong and incomplete
We tolerated it for one year and we are being screwed once more

Reducing the loans will increase investments from abroad.

About dealing with it
The problem is known
We spend more than we produse
First step--->reduce your spending
Second step--->increase your production

No.

We spend more than we produce.
Obligatory first step--->reduce your spending below production.
Problem solved!

Optional second step--->increase your production.
You don't go to streets because of optional issues. Greece is stil stuck on the obligatory first step.

^___^

@ all;

I read a lot of socialist propaganda here, simple statements from communism that are spoken if it were the one and only truth.
"the strongest shoulders should bear the most" ......haha yes, if that is not allways so......even in flat tax the people who earn more pay more! We don't need socialists "robin(what 's in a name) hoods" in government to divide the needs and sources or income.

Greek situation; ofcourse striking is stupid...it will not help the people of Greece. Ofcourse the ultra leftwing anarchists are always present to demolish even more of the poor democracy.

Sasha was completely right; Greece has same income per capita as Germany....though nothing is made there or poduced...and Gemrany does pay billions and Greece only consumes billions...

for socialists or people whop still think propaganda is a way of seeing things, the truth is that people in Greece are poor and need support. It is simple not true, but socialist never like to see reality or facts; it does not it their ideologie world.

or the people of greece the actions proposed by the government will set back the income or most employed people with about 10% ......as i that cannot be done; this figure is a fact for most americans today as it is for loads of other europeans! The point is that Greek got it for nothing from their spending government wich got the m,oney out of europe! All other people are familiar ,some more than others, that they are themselves repsonsible for earning money. that is the main big difference between rightwing people and leftwing people....take your own responsibilities(in all possible ways)

now, it is not possible to suddenly change this attitude, but it is not advisable to say "the greek people deserve to be helped out by handing them money...." no way! it is not helping, it is not necessary, it is completely teaching the wrong....(if you want them to learn a bit).

to state the the people of greece had nothing to do with their government failure is also plain stupid.
Affter all everybody knows about their tax-attitude...it wa scommon knowledge that every greek fucked all toher people of Europe...and they were so proud of it!

as for the leftwing rioteers; those fuckers deserve no help at all and should be prosecuted.

@schepel; the market, that is, banks that lend money, are the one and only who will "rate"greek economy and their ability to pay back....
it is possible that you do not like that, as your opinion is mostly flawed with factual mistakes, but you cannot deny that ....

I can want all I want that my stocks in TomTOM are worth at least 10 euro a piece...but the market(outsiders) are making the trade....they are only worth 4 euro.....I can not like it, but that is how the world goes around.....this asan example that we all suffer these views,but one has to see where one stands....only to be scientifically or statistically correct. posing your view as the truth is wrong.

@rubinho; about religion; you stated to be non-religious or even many times anti-religious...that is easy it is called nihilism....ofcourse one can not debate religion if you know nothing of it.

@manuchao; rubinho here is right. only i you guys keep doing the good work for some time ,investors will come and invest...right now you are not worth investing in..that is how it works.

if you think that raising taxes in Greece is unfair; compare the taxes you pay with the tax that Dutch, Belgians and Germans and Scandinavians pay.
You are not even close! so were is your solidarity there?

Greece has same income per capita as Germany

Greece has aprox. the same GDP per capita. Their income is 40% lower. Actually, both of these numbers are probably distorted by tax avoidance. Part of the income is probably not recorded as it finds its way to the people tax-free.

Btw, Mitch, it's a shame you don't filter your ideas from extremism and agressiveness thus making them moderate and possible for further discussion.

compare the taxes you pay with the tax that Dutch, Belgians and Germans and Scandinavians pay.




LOL