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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
You allways talk about different points and not the one which is argued it seems to me.
No one is saying that muslim culture didnt have great impact in history and that there are open minded muslims too. Ofc they are people just like everyone else, but I and I think Company too, is not disputing that , but their attitude... well at least the majority that I met, you obviously met more of the other sort.
What Company and I are talking about is current happenings in the world and especially those who come here to europe, not history.
Btw a 1000 years ago islam was much more tolerant (in a way and bearing in mind worlds society at that time) nowadays. Lets hope muslim world will become more tolerant again, untill then we do have the right to ask their part too, if they want to live with us.
Just my 2 cents and nothing really more to add, time will show what will happen.
No one is saying that muslim culture didnt have great impact in history and that there are open minded muslims too. Ofc they are people just like everyone else, but I and I think Company too, is not disputing that , but their attitude... well at least the majority that I met, you obviously met more of the other sort.
What Company and I are talking about is current happenings in the world and especially those who come here to europe, not history.
Btw a 1000 years ago islam was much more tolerant (in a way and bearing in mind worlds society at that time) nowadays. Lets hope muslim world will become more tolerant again, untill then we do have the right to ask their part too, if they want to live with us.
Just my 2 cents and nothing really more to add, time will show what will happen.
I do not know why the mix for that abortion. Indeed, in countries with a move away from European values, the killing of children is allowed, in other European traditional - no. But in general everything is under the control of women and their decisions. Likewise, when it comes to drugs, but, this is not cultural, just legal considerations.
I do not know a European country in which it comes to religious conflicts. I do not know of examples of put bomb mosques in Europe.
Can you give me the reasons why Poland is not considered as a European country? Since located in the heart of Europe, has a rich history of over a thousand years and has repeatedly stood guard over Europe, even stopping the Muslim invasion of Vienna in 1683, putting an effective resistance to communism in 1920, and less efficient Nazis in 1939?
I do not know a European country in which it comes to religious conflicts. I do not know of examples of put bomb mosques in Europe.
Can you give me the reasons why Poland is not considered as a European country? Since located in the heart of Europe, has a rich history of over a thousand years and has repeatedly stood guard over Europe, even stopping the Muslim invasion of Vienna in 1683, putting an effective resistance to communism in 1920, and less efficient Nazis in 1939?
He isn't talking about other things, this is what Company wrote:
- I mean a system of multi-culti, namely the presence of a completely different culture collide with the traditional European.
- I am not against Muslims, against their presence in Europe. I am against the Islamization of the continent, specifically the far-reaching concessions to the Muslims. Because the problem is not the terrorists themselves, but in creating a multicultural society, which did not make it anywhere, also in Europe.
Wiki gives an ok explanation, Culture of Europe and the influences. As stated in this article, there is no European culture as Company is claiming, but a series of overlapping cultures. We share common values but are not the same, 'the European' doesn't exists.
And about 'the moslims', most of the ones living in Europe are born here. The ones I know and call my friends are good people. I don't put them in the same box with a handfull of idiots claiming to fight for a religion. In every ideology you have idiot extremists but you can't judge over 1.5 billion people because of these terrorists.
Besides, what is Company talking about if he's talking about Islamization, Islam in Europe :P
- I mean a system of multi-culti, namely the presence of a completely different culture collide with the traditional European.
- I am not against Muslims, against their presence in Europe. I am against the Islamization of the continent, specifically the far-reaching concessions to the Muslims. Because the problem is not the terrorists themselves, but in creating a multicultural society, which did not make it anywhere, also in Europe.
Wiki gives an ok explanation, Culture of Europe and the influences. As stated in this article, there is no European culture as Company is claiming, but a series of overlapping cultures. We share common values but are not the same, 'the European' doesn't exists.
And about 'the moslims', most of the ones living in Europe are born here. The ones I know and call my friends are good people. I don't put them in the same box with a handfull of idiots claiming to fight for a religion. In every ideology you have idiot extremists but you can't judge over 1.5 billion people because of these terrorists.
Besides, what is Company talking about if he's talking about Islamization, Islam in Europe :P
Well I am talking only about the ones which are causing the issues we have nowadays and their numbers are completely sufficient for that. I don't judge everyone to be like that, but you cant deny me my personal experience, not even the ones of familiy or friends made and its all along the same line, sadly.
I wish it wouldnt be like that , but I do not live in a dreamworld anymore.
Sometimes here in germany one can see progress in the 3rd generation, so maybe time will solve this.
I wish it wouldnt be like that , but I do not live in a dreamworld anymore.
Sometimes here in germany one can see progress in the 3rd generation, so maybe time will solve this.
The question is, do you know these were moslims or are you refering to German arabs/turks as moslims? And what are the places most riots in western European countries happen with 'moslims' involved? Often in the suburbs of larger cities with low social classes. This would make it more a social problem then something religious I think.
But I think it will solve itself. Specially moslimsgirls in the Netherlands aren't accepting to be treathed the way their mothers and grandmothers are. They make friends at school and want the same quality in live and same freedom as their friends.
EDIT: people will learn to live with eachother in time, and respect eachother. If not, the Dutch would have never forgiven the Germans .. ;)
(edited)
But I think it will solve itself. Specially moslimsgirls in the Netherlands aren't accepting to be treathed the way their mothers and grandmothers are. They make friends at school and want the same quality in live and same freedom as their friends.
EDIT: people will learn to live with eachother in time, and respect eachother. If not, the Dutch would have never forgiven the Germans .. ;)
(edited)
Your really talking noncense. Personally, I think nationalistic Christian conservatism is a disease spreading over Europe, VS etc. the last few years and hopefully people come to their senses soon. The time of our grandmothers wasn't in any way better.
European countries and religious conflicts: most recent for example the IRA and war in Yugoslavia, a bit longer ago something called the holocaust etc.
bomb mosques: no, but many are tried to burn down in the Netherlands the last few years. I know only examples of my country, don't know if this is also happening in other European countries.
woman and vote in elections: in the Netherlands we have a political party, the SGP (a christian reformed political party), they are against the right for women to vote and women should not be part of the government.
You only see what you want to see ...
European countries and religious conflicts: most recent for example the IRA and war in Yugoslavia, a bit longer ago something called the holocaust etc.
bomb mosques: no, but many are tried to burn down in the Netherlands the last few years. I know only examples of my country, don't know if this is also happening in other European countries.
woman and vote in elections: in the Netherlands we have a political party, the SGP (a christian reformed political party), they are against the right for women to vote and women should not be part of the government.
You only see what you want to see ...
They were moslims.
The few arabs or turks with christian roots dont cause these kind of problems.
Hope you are right with your edit.
The few arabs or turks with christian roots dont cause these kind of problems.
Hope you are right with your edit.
woman and vote in elections: in the Netherlands we have a political party, the SGP (a christian reformed political party), they are against the right for women to vote and women should not be part of the government.
I wish we had something like this in Serbia. It would make voting much easier for me :D
I wish we had something like this in Serbia. It would make voting much easier for me :D
And if you could give some examples of this "Christian disease"? Can you give examples of the real impact of orders / bans the Christian religion in our lives?
I live in Poland, who is generally one of the most Catholic countries in Europe. I'm agnostic, I don't go to church, don't pay attention to religious prohibitions or commandments. I live peacefully, no one shouted to me any "Christian nationalist" slogans. So what threat do you see in your part of Europe, who is much more secular than Poland?
You give bad examples of for European wars. IRA is embroiled in a conflict state, not religious. Likewise, the war in Yugoslavia was ethnic conflict than religious. Several different nations wanted to have their independent state and religion was the only hallmark (Serbs - Orthodox, Croats - Catholics, Bosnians - Muslims, etc.).
Assimilation proceeds differently. Of course, many Muslims can easily adopt European customs and rejects the fundamentally Koran. But there are also those who are more orthodox, and I mean even of those who were born in Europe, as the killer of Van Gogh.
I live in Poland, who is generally one of the most Catholic countries in Europe. I'm agnostic, I don't go to church, don't pay attention to religious prohibitions or commandments. I live peacefully, no one shouted to me any "Christian nationalist" slogans. So what threat do you see in your part of Europe, who is much more secular than Poland?
You give bad examples of for European wars. IRA is embroiled in a conflict state, not religious. Likewise, the war in Yugoslavia was ethnic conflict than religious. Several different nations wanted to have their independent state and religion was the only hallmark (Serbs - Orthodox, Croats - Catholics, Bosnians - Muslims, etc.).
Assimilation proceeds differently. Of course, many Muslims can easily adopt European customs and rejects the fundamentally Koran. But there are also those who are more orthodox, and I mean even of those who were born in Europe, as the killer of Van Gogh.
Can you give me the reasons why Poland is not considered as a European country?
Please note that I do not believe the following arguments myself. Some of them are clearly nonsensical, but they are 'live' arguments. Just have a look at the public debate after 1989.
- The 'real' Europe is what is called Western Europe today: France, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium (and Luxemburg). Or, in other words, the countries with big colonies in the past. (Which is why I put Luxemburg between parentheses.)
- Poland has been part of the USSR for so long it lost its (shallow) European roots. (Obviously wrong!)
- Poland doesn't share the commonly held values which are considered 'European'. (This is actually a defensible position. Polish attitudes towards women on abortion, birth control etc. are quite apart from the European norm. Same goes for gay rights. Still, Ireland isn't all that different but no one out there would consider Ireland anything but a part of Europe.)
I really do not buy into either of these arguments; as far as 'm concerned Europe goes all the way to China. Russia shares as much of a common history with 'the West' as any country west of Russia you'd care to name. Still, whichever way you look at it, Poland is on the outside of the Europe. The centre lies between France, Germany and the UK. This is the EU heartland where the real influence lies. I'd like it to be different, the aformentioned countries are way too powerful, but this is the reality today: nothing whatsoever happens unless at least two of them want it to happen and the third doesn't disagree overly much.
The following article is well worth the read:
All for One? EU Member States and the Union's Common Policy Towards
the Russian Federation
Anke Schmidt-Felzmann
University of Glasgow, UK
Please note that I do not believe the following arguments myself. Some of them are clearly nonsensical, but they are 'live' arguments. Just have a look at the public debate after 1989.
- The 'real' Europe is what is called Western Europe today: France, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium (and Luxemburg). Or, in other words, the countries with big colonies in the past. (Which is why I put Luxemburg between parentheses.)
- Poland has been part of the USSR for so long it lost its (shallow) European roots. (Obviously wrong!)
- Poland doesn't share the commonly held values which are considered 'European'. (This is actually a defensible position. Polish attitudes towards women on abortion, birth control etc. are quite apart from the European norm. Same goes for gay rights. Still, Ireland isn't all that different but no one out there would consider Ireland anything but a part of Europe.)
I really do not buy into either of these arguments; as far as 'm concerned Europe goes all the way to China. Russia shares as much of a common history with 'the West' as any country west of Russia you'd care to name. Still, whichever way you look at it, Poland is on the outside of the Europe. The centre lies between France, Germany and the UK. This is the EU heartland where the real influence lies. I'd like it to be different, the aformentioned countries are way too powerful, but this is the reality today: nothing whatsoever happens unless at least two of them want it to happen and the third doesn't disagree overly much.
The following article is well worth the read:
All for One? EU Member States and the Union's Common Policy Towards
the Russian Federation
Anke Schmidt-Felzmann
University of Glasgow, UK
The Irish conflict is as religious as it could possibly get. There would be no conflict without the religious issues.
Nope thats not true. Its even entirely wrong.
I lived for some years in Ireland and was in the north too.
The main issue is cultural and social differences and nowadays the lethal circuit pruduced by hate and killing each other.
(edited)
I lived for some years in Ireland and was in the north too.
The main issue is cultural and social differences and nowadays the lethal circuit pruduced by hate and killing each other.
(edited)
It's very ridiculous arguments ... The current political trend, which equates the rights of homosexual persons with heterosexual, allows for the killing of unborn children, has absolutely no right to define who is European and who is not.
On the contrary, objected to some of these postulates, Poland upholds the values on which Europe was built and which we just call it european. The more that is Poland is one of those countries that for the defense of Europe in 1939 against Nazism and Communism have paid the ultimate price.
On the contrary, objected to some of these postulates, Poland upholds the values on which Europe was built and which we just call it european. The more that is Poland is one of those countries that for the defense of Europe in 1939 against Nazism and Communism have paid the ultimate price.
Hmm maybe I overlooked that but who said poland isnt european or europe?
Well for me it is.
Well for me it is.
At one point in time, people 'in the West' were looking very askance at Poland as this wasn't - and still is not to this very day - considered a true European country.
I wrote nationalistic christian conservatism is a disease. And you gave many examples yourself, just read your posts :)
Well, ok IRA should be The Troubles and war/conflicts are often more complex, but ofcourse it was also religious, just as Yugoslavia was. So your post that there are no religious conflicts in European countries is just wrong.
And it's called integration, not assimilation. If you say this on purpose it just shows how intolerant you are. I don't judge people for who they are but for what they do, and if people obey the law I don't care who my neighbors are.
Well, ok IRA should be The Troubles and war/conflicts are often more complex, but ofcourse it was also religious, just as Yugoslavia was. So your post that there are no religious conflicts in European countries is just wrong.
And it's called integration, not assimilation. If you say this on purpose it just shows how intolerant you are. I don't judge people for who they are but for what they do, and if people obey the law I don't care who my neighbors are.