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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
(which moron decided to transport tourists in a bus with soldiers in a country at war?)
the tourists themselves feel safer when traveling with soldiers
the tourists themselves feel safer when traveling with soldiers
that is the single most biased and idiotic post i think i have ever seen.
1) Many of those 'soldiers' probably aren't soldiers, soldiers get free travel in Israel so many just dress as soldiers for the free travel.
2) They are all wrong to attack.
3) The dead tourists can be blamed on the people that killed them, not Israel.
4) 'Innocent security personnel' - these not a legitimate target in war?
5) The guilty were killed? So in WW2, Hitler wasn't a target because he never killed personally?
6) Many INNOCENT Isreaeli's and CHILDREN were murdered AGAIN, by terrorists.
7) Where is your heart? Why is killing Israeli's for no reason ok to you?
8) news is run by terrible zionists? Is that a way of saying the truth that shows Israel in a fair way?
9) You keep saying it's a war, if it's a war, Israel has the right to fight too...
Basically, what is wrong with you? You have basically condoned the murder of innocent Israeli people and condoned terrorism. Israel was attacked first. FACT. Where's your heart?
Israel probably shouldn't have done what they did afterwards, but in your words 'it's a war'.
You are a hypocrite and a supporter of terrorism, just because Israel is the subject
1) Many of those 'soldiers' probably aren't soldiers, soldiers get free travel in Israel so many just dress as soldiers for the free travel.
2) They are all wrong to attack.
3) The dead tourists can be blamed on the people that killed them, not Israel.
4) 'Innocent security personnel' - these not a legitimate target in war?
5) The guilty were killed? So in WW2, Hitler wasn't a target because he never killed personally?
6) Many INNOCENT Isreaeli's and CHILDREN were murdered AGAIN, by terrorists.
7) Where is your heart? Why is killing Israeli's for no reason ok to you?
8) news is run by terrible zionists? Is that a way of saying the truth that shows Israel in a fair way?
9) You keep saying it's a war, if it's a war, Israel has the right to fight too...
Basically, what is wrong with you? You have basically condoned the murder of innocent Israeli people and condoned terrorism. Israel was attacked first. FACT. Where's your heart?
Israel probably shouldn't have done what they did afterwards, but in your words 'it's a war'.
You are a hypocrite and a supporter of terrorism, just because Israel is the subject
He asks you what the difference is between an innocent child and an innocent adult who isn't a soldier.
How can I answer this is the best way as my answer will probably be controversial to many (strangely enough) ..
What is innocent?
Well, I use my country and give you a 'strange' example:
I live in a democracy and can vote for everyone I want. Let's say my country would be at war with a small group of militant Frisians who took control of the province, we, the Dutch drove and locked them in to, literately locked them in to with a wall (Frisians are Dutch people in the North of my country). And now it's time for the Dutch to vote. Don't forget, in this example the normal Frisians can't vote as they live in a dictatorship by the small group of militant Frisians who took control, and the normal Frisians can only hope for the best of all the worst situations.
I have 2 options when voting, I can vote for a political party that wants peace and solve the problems so everyone can live together again, or vote for the extremist of ultra far-right who wants the Netherlands only for the Dutch and drive the remaining Frisians, militant or not, into the North Sea or at least out of the Netherlands. Knowing that voting for the extremist of ultra far-right the ongoing war will never ends till the Netherlands is ethnic cleansed, and still vote for this political party raises the question, am I innocent then ... ? And if this political party become the largest party and rule my country after the elections, what does that say about all the other Dutch who voted this political party? Are they innocent knowing they voted to support that war?
Another thing, can anyone be innocent in a country that is at war and all adults are soldiers or has been a soldier?
Combining these 2 brings me back to my first question, what is innocent?
How can I answer this is the best way as my answer will probably be controversial to many (strangely enough) ..
What is innocent?
Well, I use my country and give you a 'strange' example:
I live in a democracy and can vote for everyone I want. Let's say my country would be at war with a small group of militant Frisians who took control of the province, we, the Dutch drove and locked them in to, literately locked them in to with a wall (Frisians are Dutch people in the North of my country). And now it's time for the Dutch to vote. Don't forget, in this example the normal Frisians can't vote as they live in a dictatorship by the small group of militant Frisians who took control, and the normal Frisians can only hope for the best of all the worst situations.
I have 2 options when voting, I can vote for a political party that wants peace and solve the problems so everyone can live together again, or vote for the extremist of ultra far-right who wants the Netherlands only for the Dutch and drive the remaining Frisians, militant or not, into the North Sea or at least out of the Netherlands. Knowing that voting for the extremist of ultra far-right the ongoing war will never ends till the Netherlands is ethnic cleansed, and still vote for this political party raises the question, am I innocent then ... ? And if this political party become the largest party and rule my country after the elections, what does that say about all the other Dutch who voted this political party? Are they innocent knowing they voted to support that war?
Another thing, can anyone be innocent in a country that is at war and all adults are soldiers or has been a soldier?
Combining these 2 brings me back to my first question, what is innocent?
I just can't believe starting a discussion about propaganda when it should be about completely different things like the overaggressive response of the israeli army. That's what I'm trying to say.
Another thing, can anyone be innocent in a country that is at war and all adults are soldiers or has been a soldier?
Israeli men HAVE to serve in military. If that in your eyes makes them guilty and proper killing targets, then it concerns the Israeli children as well - in few years they also will HAVE to serve as soldiers.
You can't judge a man by his uniform, or his age. For me a life of a 40yo can be worth more than a life of a 14yo. All depends on people. Thus I don't understand why killing an adult is less evil than killing a child, or a mother. For me it's the same in general, unless there's an open war and only those who want go to war.
Israeli men HAVE to serve in military. If that in your eyes makes them guilty and proper killing targets, then it concerns the Israeli children as well - in few years they also will HAVE to serve as soldiers.
You can't judge a man by his uniform, or his age. For me a life of a 40yo can be worth more than a life of a 14yo. All depends on people. Thus I don't understand why killing an adult is less evil than killing a child, or a mother. For me it's the same in general, unless there's an open war and only those who want go to war.
I'm not responding (about the subject itself) until you take back what you claimed me to have said.
Ok, I used the wrong words, my apologies. I meant something different as I wrote in my last post to you. Also edit the post now. Now it says what I meant to say :)
(edited)
(edited)
Those dead tourists can be blamed on israel and no one else as every normal thinking person would never transport tourists in a bus with soldiers in a country at war!!
Those tourists' death can be blamed on the ones firing at them, and on them only. Israel is in no way responsible for the war crimes of the Palestinians. Just like the Palestinians aren't responsible for the war crimes of Israel.
As retaliation of these attacks (remember, the guilty are already shot dead and israel knows!!!!) the israel army opens fire on Gaza (AGAIN) even knowing it wasn't Hamas, and killing at least 7 more Palestinians, not soldiers but civilians, inclusive children AGAIN.
You do know that every day, there are rockets launched from Gaza onto Israeli territory? Again and again and again.
Children died for nothing, absolutely nothing and now the discussion is about 'propaganda' and 'Hamas' :S I really don't understand what happens with well thinking and overall good informed people, what you are, when israel becomes the subject :S Something in these peoples heads goes completely wrong if you ask me.
I can change this so it applies to you, but that won't help the discussion, just like this won't help. You basically say here: "You are wrong". Okay, that's your opinion, I beg to differ.
The first thing I see is an overaggressive unnecessary bombardment as a response to a militant action with dead children as the consequence, and I see the same as anyone else ....
The first thing I see are the illegal Israeli colonists and the daily rockets on Israeli territory. You think those rockets never kill Israeli children?
But indeed, maybe I should have asked first, who do you believe then?
I believe none of them.
Well, I use my country and give you a 'strange' example: [...]
(Didn't copy it all in order to not mess up my message.)
What about the Palestinians that voted for Hamas? Are they responsible for what Hamas is doing? 'Cause you never mention this side of the story.
Another thing, can anyone be innocent in a country that is at war and all adults are soldiers or has been a soldier?
Yes. Israeli men have no choice. And even if they had the choice, joining the Israeli Army doesn't remove your innocence.
I just can't believe starting a discussion about propaganda when it should be about completely different things like the overaggressive response of the israeli army. That's what I'm trying to say.
I just answered your question (why would Hamas lie about the attack if they were the attacker). The answer is propaganda to convince the international community, just like Israel is using propaganda.
Those tourists' death can be blamed on the ones firing at them, and on them only. Israel is in no way responsible for the war crimes of the Palestinians. Just like the Palestinians aren't responsible for the war crimes of Israel.
As retaliation of these attacks (remember, the guilty are already shot dead and israel knows!!!!) the israel army opens fire on Gaza (AGAIN) even knowing it wasn't Hamas, and killing at least 7 more Palestinians, not soldiers but civilians, inclusive children AGAIN.
You do know that every day, there are rockets launched from Gaza onto Israeli territory? Again and again and again.
Children died for nothing, absolutely nothing and now the discussion is about 'propaganda' and 'Hamas' :S I really don't understand what happens with well thinking and overall good informed people, what you are, when israel becomes the subject :S Something in these peoples heads goes completely wrong if you ask me.
I can change this so it applies to you, but that won't help the discussion, just like this won't help. You basically say here: "You are wrong". Okay, that's your opinion, I beg to differ.
The first thing I see is an overaggressive unnecessary bombardment as a response to a militant action with dead children as the consequence, and I see the same as anyone else ....
The first thing I see are the illegal Israeli colonists and the daily rockets on Israeli territory. You think those rockets never kill Israeli children?
But indeed, maybe I should have asked first, who do you believe then?
I believe none of them.
Well, I use my country and give you a 'strange' example: [...]
(Didn't copy it all in order to not mess up my message.)
What about the Palestinians that voted for Hamas? Are they responsible for what Hamas is doing? 'Cause you never mention this side of the story.
Another thing, can anyone be innocent in a country that is at war and all adults are soldiers or has been a soldier?
Yes. Israeli men have no choice. And even if they had the choice, joining the Israeli Army doesn't remove your innocence.
I just can't believe starting a discussion about propaganda when it should be about completely different things like the overaggressive response of the israeli army. That's what I'm trying to say.
I just answered your question (why would Hamas lie about the attack if they were the attacker). The answer is propaganda to convince the international community, just like Israel is using propaganda.
Those tourists' death can be blamed on the ones firing at them, and on them only. Israel is in no way responsible for the war crimes of the Palestinians. Just like the Palestinians aren't responsible for the war crimes of Israel.
In a country at war it isn't really strange the enemy is attacking soldiers right? Attacking soldiers isn't a war crime, that happens in a war. That's the risk of being a soldier. Hamas is blamed when civilians die because they mix these civilians with legitimate targets, Khadafi is blamed for the same thing, what is so different with this situation, I don't see it ... in war civilians and soldiers should not be mixed.
You do know that every day, there are rockets launched from Gaza onto Israeli territory? Again and again and again.
The first thing I see are the illegal Israeli colonists and the daily rockets on Israeli territory. You think those rockets never kill Israeli children?
Yes, bombing children is wrong, they are innocent. In nature almost all people aren't evil, parents, school, politicians etc make them evil by using all forms of indoctrination.
Now my answer, I will put these 2 together as I can answer them in 1 go. From what moment are we looking at the situation in israel? A week ago, a month ago, from '67, but I think the best is from '47/'48 (in fact even sooner, the late 19th century, but '47/'48 is a good beginning). When is it not allowed anymore to fight the enemy who invaded and took over your land and still doing that? If the nazis would have won the war and own my land, was it ok my granddad fought the nazis but I'm not allowed anymore because it happened to long ago, or because some international organization accepted the invasion but my people didn't but just have to accept it? And who would be the enemy, only those who control the checkpoints or would that be all nazis that would still live on my land?
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination?
It's a difficult situation to give the right answer as it will never be the right answer ... I do realize that :)
What about the Palestinians that voted for Hamas? Are they responsible for what Hamas is doing? 'Cause you never mention this side of the story.
You can't call Gaza really a democracy, they had elections 1 time in an area already controlled by Hamas. Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by the hundreds for example during operation 'Cast Lead' but also before that, israeli soldiers drive through your cities demolishing houses, if you can't move around freely for a few km's because of roadblocks, being treated like second-hand people etc etc? Israel is driving these people, who have almost nothing to loose anymore, into the hands of these (militant) groups with their actions. For me it's just difficult and completely illogical to point to these people as being the guilty ones as they have almost nothing to say over what happens to them and the international community isn't helping at all like in Libya or Egypt.
But I think that is the win-win situation for israel. They can fight these militant groups with international approval and keep somewhat of a control over that part of the land, and reject the independent state of Palestine because of the aggression against israel. Politics ..
Yes. Israeli men have no choice. And even if they had the choice, joining the Israeli Army doesn't remove your innocence.
Not only men joins the israeli army, also women. And I think differently. The former israeli soldiers didn't only play cards and wash cars day and night, they actually go to a warzone.
EDIT: If you watch the docu's made about israeli soldiers by israeli you know what I mean by being a soldier ones :) (for example docu's made by Yoav Shamir, or the docu To See If I'm Smiling (recommended!), also This is my land... Hebron etc)
And what is the truth, maybe the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories is 1 of the most reliable as they live there and have nothing to win or loose by telling the truth other then human rights, maybe even more to loose as they are seen as traitors, website B'Tselem.
(edited)
In a country at war it isn't really strange the enemy is attacking soldiers right? Attacking soldiers isn't a war crime, that happens in a war. That's the risk of being a soldier. Hamas is blamed when civilians die because they mix these civilians with legitimate targets, Khadafi is blamed for the same thing, what is so different with this situation, I don't see it ... in war civilians and soldiers should not be mixed.
You do know that every day, there are rockets launched from Gaza onto Israeli territory? Again and again and again.
The first thing I see are the illegal Israeli colonists and the daily rockets on Israeli territory. You think those rockets never kill Israeli children?
Yes, bombing children is wrong, they are innocent. In nature almost all people aren't evil, parents, school, politicians etc make them evil by using all forms of indoctrination.
Now my answer, I will put these 2 together as I can answer them in 1 go. From what moment are we looking at the situation in israel? A week ago, a month ago, from '67, but I think the best is from '47/'48 (in fact even sooner, the late 19th century, but '47/'48 is a good beginning). When is it not allowed anymore to fight the enemy who invaded and took over your land and still doing that? If the nazis would have won the war and own my land, was it ok my granddad fought the nazis but I'm not allowed anymore because it happened to long ago, or because some international organization accepted the invasion but my people didn't but just have to accept it? And who would be the enemy, only those who control the checkpoints or would that be all nazis that would still live on my land?
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination?
It's a difficult situation to give the right answer as it will never be the right answer ... I do realize that :)
What about the Palestinians that voted for Hamas? Are they responsible for what Hamas is doing? 'Cause you never mention this side of the story.
You can't call Gaza really a democracy, they had elections 1 time in an area already controlled by Hamas. Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by the hundreds for example during operation 'Cast Lead' but also before that, israeli soldiers drive through your cities demolishing houses, if you can't move around freely for a few km's because of roadblocks, being treated like second-hand people etc etc? Israel is driving these people, who have almost nothing to loose anymore, into the hands of these (militant) groups with their actions. For me it's just difficult and completely illogical to point to these people as being the guilty ones as they have almost nothing to say over what happens to them and the international community isn't helping at all like in Libya or Egypt.
But I think that is the win-win situation for israel. They can fight these militant groups with international approval and keep somewhat of a control over that part of the land, and reject the independent state of Palestine because of the aggression against israel. Politics ..
Yes. Israeli men have no choice. And even if they had the choice, joining the Israeli Army doesn't remove your innocence.
Not only men joins the israeli army, also women. And I think differently. The former israeli soldiers didn't only play cards and wash cars day and night, they actually go to a warzone.
EDIT: If you watch the docu's made about israeli soldiers by israeli you know what I mean by being a soldier ones :) (for example docu's made by Yoav Shamir, or the docu To See If I'm Smiling (recommended!), also This is my land... Hebron etc)
And what is the truth, maybe the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories is 1 of the most reliable as they live there and have nothing to win or loose by telling the truth other then human rights, maybe even more to loose as they are seen as traitors, website B'Tselem.
(edited)
In a country at war it isn't really strange the enemy is attacking soldiers right? Attacking soldiers isn't a war crime, that happens in a war. That's the risk of being a soldier. Hamas is blamed when civilians die because they mix these civilians with legitimate targets, Khadafi is blamed for the same thing, what is so different with this situation, I don't see it ... in war civilians and soldiers should not be mixed.
I agree with the last sentence. However, there is a difference between 'soldiers that are operational' and 'soldiers that are accompanying tourists for their safety'. Not my best expression, but I hope you get what I mean. If not, I'm gonna say it to you in Dutch ;-)
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination?
Look, I understand the Palestinians. I wouldn't like it if foreigners came here and said: 'Well, from now on, this state is called XXX and we will rule this state, if you like it or not." Problem is that the Jews have an understandable point of view too. They both do. You know what the Jews have gone through in the early 40's, so it was quite logical they wanted a land for themselves, in order to never have to go through such a horrible period again. For them, Israel was the logical land, because of historical issues. That's why it's really a missed opportunity when in '47 the Palestinians didn't accept the UN-proposal. And of course, the Palestinians have the 'right' to fight this injustice (from their pov of course, from the Israeli pov, it's not an injustice). However, I think there are two large things necessary to solve that delicate matter: 1) the Palestinians stop firing rockets from Gaza and 2) the Israeli's stop claiming land in the Westbank. Problem is: who wants to do that and when is he willing to do that? So I understand the Palestinians fight the Israeli state, and I understand Israel fights the Palestinians who are firing at them, but you are always ignoring what the Palestians do wrong. You think they fire the rockets only on military targets. No. They don't. Just like the Israeli aren't just firing at military targets of the Palestinians.
Israel is driving these people, who have almost nothing to loose anymore, into the hands of these (militant) groups with their actions.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by the hundreds for example during
Just like the militant groups are driving the Israeli's towards the ... - let's call them strong Israeli nationalists, you know who I mean.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by hundreds of rockets ... You see, it's double.
Not only men joins the israeli army, also women. And I think differently.
When you are obliged to, what are you going to do? You HAVE to go to the army, you have no choice. How can a non-desired move to the army make you less innocent? I don't get that.
I agree with the last sentence. However, there is a difference between 'soldiers that are operational' and 'soldiers that are accompanying tourists for their safety'. Not my best expression, but I hope you get what I mean. If not, I'm gonna say it to you in Dutch ;-)
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination?
Look, I understand the Palestinians. I wouldn't like it if foreigners came here and said: 'Well, from now on, this state is called XXX and we will rule this state, if you like it or not." Problem is that the Jews have an understandable point of view too. They both do. You know what the Jews have gone through in the early 40's, so it was quite logical they wanted a land for themselves, in order to never have to go through such a horrible period again. For them, Israel was the logical land, because of historical issues. That's why it's really a missed opportunity when in '47 the Palestinians didn't accept the UN-proposal. And of course, the Palestinians have the 'right' to fight this injustice (from their pov of course, from the Israeli pov, it's not an injustice). However, I think there are two large things necessary to solve that delicate matter: 1) the Palestinians stop firing rockets from Gaza and 2) the Israeli's stop claiming land in the Westbank. Problem is: who wants to do that and when is he willing to do that? So I understand the Palestinians fight the Israeli state, and I understand Israel fights the Palestinians who are firing at them, but you are always ignoring what the Palestians do wrong. You think they fire the rockets only on military targets. No. They don't. Just like the Israeli aren't just firing at military targets of the Palestinians.
Israel is driving these people, who have almost nothing to loose anymore, into the hands of these (militant) groups with their actions.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by the hundreds for example during
Just like the militant groups are driving the Israeli's towards the ... - let's call them strong Israeli nationalists, you know who I mean.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by hundreds of rockets ... You see, it's double.
Not only men joins the israeli army, also women. And I think differently.
When you are obliged to, what are you going to do? You HAVE to go to the army, you have no choice. How can a non-desired move to the army make you less innocent? I don't get that.
and Palestinian children are often used as soldiers. So by your logic, they are fair game because 'it's a war'.
At the end of the day, Israel more often than not, acts in retaliation. If Palestine laid down their arms, there would probably be peace, if Israel laid down their arms, there would probably be mass violence and more murder than usual.
At the end of the day, Israel more often than not, acts in retaliation. If Palestine laid down their arms, there would probably be peace, if Israel laid down their arms, there would probably be mass violence and more murder than usual.
If Palestine laid down their arms, there would probably be peace ... , all the land they have left will be stolen, Jeruzalem will be will be purged ethnic and they will be probably put in a concentration camp.
The creation of Israel is probably the biggest mistake of the un ever and nobody knows what to do with it...
The creation of Israel is probably the biggest mistake of the un ever and nobody knows what to do with it...
well thats really assumptious thinking based on nothing.
Israel is pretty much always the reactor, fighting back and doing their violence after they are attacked and their children killed, first.
Israel is pretty much always the reactor, fighting back and doing their violence after they are attacked and their children killed, first.
I agree with the last sentence. However, there is a difference between 'soldiers that are operational' and 'soldiers that are accompanying tourists for their safety'. Not my best expression, but I hope you get what I mean. If not, I'm gonna say it to you in Dutch ;-)
I'm not sure I do understand. My answer at this comment will still be the same, besides tourists just shouldn't be in a country at war, also not under protection of soldiers. To me it doesn't matter what the reason is not to mix civilians and soldiers, it should never be done. Khadafi could say the same, the antiaircraft guns near residential houses are for the protection of his tribe ..
ook, I understand the Palestinians. I wouldn't like ..... claiming land in the Westbank.
This is almost always where this discussion comes to, who has what right on what land. 1 part of the Jews wanted israel, the zionists. Many others looked at the holy scripts (Israel can only be established when the new Messiah lead the Jews to israel) and also looked into future and predicted the coming (now current) problems and war by claiming a Jewish state in Arab land and wanted to claim another part in the world. But way before WWII it was already a discussion where to start a Jewish state, that isn't something that started after the war, Proposals for a Jewish state (wiki).
Problem is: who wants to do that and when is he willing to do that?
The people in power claim the land only for their people. But it's strange other nations decided what happened to that land, but not the people already living there.
And many countries only choose 1 side, including the US with the veto's and also the EU. But maybe soon the world has to make a decision for real when September 20th the Palestinian authorities will seek recognition in the UN for the independent state of Palestine. Already 122 countries recognize the independent state.
but you are always ignoring what the Palestians do wrong. You think they fire the rockets only on military targets. No. They don't. Just like the Israeli aren't just firing at military targets of the Palestinians.
I already answered this is my other post. This is my answer: And who would be the enemy, only those who control the checkpoints or would that be all nazis that would still live on my land?
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination? What would you do, who would be your enemy? I think it's very difficult to really give an answer, but I'm afraid I know the answer what I would do and I'm really glad I don't live in a situation in which I don't have to make that decision ever :)
And don't forget, from the moment young children in Gaza starts to look around, play outside, have their own first impressions and learn what their world is about, this is the only thing they see of israeli: israeli soldier, nothing more. I don't think we can truly understand what this psychologically would do to them and what the consequences are of these first impressions when they grow up to (young) adults.
Just like the militant groups are driving the Israeli's towards the ... - let's call them strong Israeli nationalists, you know who I mean.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by hundreds of rockets ... You see, it's double.
You mean zionists ;) It's a normal word, we also talk about muslim fundamentalists right?
And true, but that brings us back to my second comment in this post, and so on ... it's always the same circle and something needs to be done to break that circle.
When you are obliged to, what are you going to do? You HAVE to go to the army, you have no choice. How can a non-desired move to the army make you less innocent? I don't get that.
Nowadays the Dutch army is a fully professional army. Being a soldier in the Netherlands is a profession now, based on free will. But in the past it was also required to join the Dutch army if you didn't had a really good reason not to join.
When I left school at a young age it was still required to join the army so I got a letter from the government that an appointment was made with the army doctor for an examination. But I already had made my decision, I would never ever join the army, no way I was going to be trained to be a killer. Whatever the consequence was, I would not join the army!
First appointment with that army doctor I was an hour late, completely stoned on cannabis and it was also very clear to him I wasn't clean at all. A discussion started that lasted a long time. I made it very very clear I would not join, whatever he told me and whatever threats he trow at me. He thought otherwise :P At the end he told me another letter with a new appointment will be send to me. Fine, I told him but that won't change anything and I would find reasons not to join.
Next appointment was about a month later. I came even more late, 1.5 hours, again as stoned as I could be. I entered the office, he looked at me and I saw his face changing to frustration. He asked me to come with him. Ofcourse a new discussion started but this time I had a paper from my own doctor and I marked everything on the list that I found in my family that could be a reason to fail the examination (sicknesses, allergies, etc). The discussion went on ... I remember 1 of his last questions. If I was going to f*ck it up for others. Absolutely was my answer :) At the end he took a paper, signed it, and told me: indefinite suspension until further notice and now leave. Never heard of them again :D I was lucky, if I did this 10 years earlier I probably would have end up in jail, but I didn't know that and I didn't care.
You see, you always have a choice :) But you also have to face the consequences.
And maybe this is interesting for you to read, Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army. Testimonies of israeli soldiers who can end up in jail for these testimonies.
And this is 1 of the docu's that really left an impression on me (I already posted it before), To See If I'm Smiling.
(edited)
I'm not sure I do understand. My answer at this comment will still be the same, besides tourists just shouldn't be in a country at war, also not under protection of soldiers. To me it doesn't matter what the reason is not to mix civilians and soldiers, it should never be done. Khadafi could say the same, the antiaircraft guns near residential houses are for the protection of his tribe ..
ook, I understand the Palestinians. I wouldn't like ..... claiming land in the Westbank.
This is almost always where this discussion comes to, who has what right on what land. 1 part of the Jews wanted israel, the zionists. Many others looked at the holy scripts (Israel can only be established when the new Messiah lead the Jews to israel) and also looked into future and predicted the coming (now current) problems and war by claiming a Jewish state in Arab land and wanted to claim another part in the world. But way before WWII it was already a discussion where to start a Jewish state, that isn't something that started after the war, Proposals for a Jewish state (wiki).
Problem is: who wants to do that and when is he willing to do that?
The people in power claim the land only for their people. But it's strange other nations decided what happened to that land, but not the people already living there.
And many countries only choose 1 side, including the US with the veto's and also the EU. But maybe soon the world has to make a decision for real when September 20th the Palestinian authorities will seek recognition in the UN for the independent state of Palestine. Already 122 countries recognize the independent state.
but you are always ignoring what the Palestians do wrong. You think they fire the rockets only on military targets. No. They don't. Just like the Israeli aren't just firing at military targets of the Palestinians.
I already answered this is my other post. This is my answer: And who would be the enemy, only those who control the checkpoints or would that be all nazis that would still live on my land?
Besides, if the enemy is controlling your country, your economy, locked you up behind a wall and won't accept an official army, living under apartheid etc, what else is possible other then fight against this complete domination? What would you do, who would be your enemy? I think it's very difficult to really give an answer, but I'm afraid I know the answer what I would do and I'm really glad I don't live in a situation in which I don't have to make that decision ever :)
And don't forget, from the moment young children in Gaza starts to look around, play outside, have their own first impressions and learn what their world is about, this is the only thing they see of israeli: israeli soldier, nothing more. I don't think we can truly understand what this psychologically would do to them and what the consequences are of these first impressions when they grow up to (young) adults.
Just like the militant groups are driving the Israeli's towards the ... - let's call them strong Israeli nationalists, you know who I mean.
Besides, who would you support if your people get killed by hundreds of rockets ... You see, it's double.
You mean zionists ;) It's a normal word, we also talk about muslim fundamentalists right?
And true, but that brings us back to my second comment in this post, and so on ... it's always the same circle and something needs to be done to break that circle.
When you are obliged to, what are you going to do? You HAVE to go to the army, you have no choice. How can a non-desired move to the army make you less innocent? I don't get that.
Nowadays the Dutch army is a fully professional army. Being a soldier in the Netherlands is a profession now, based on free will. But in the past it was also required to join the Dutch army if you didn't had a really good reason not to join.
When I left school at a young age it was still required to join the army so I got a letter from the government that an appointment was made with the army doctor for an examination. But I already had made my decision, I would never ever join the army, no way I was going to be trained to be a killer. Whatever the consequence was, I would not join the army!
First appointment with that army doctor I was an hour late, completely stoned on cannabis and it was also very clear to him I wasn't clean at all. A discussion started that lasted a long time. I made it very very clear I would not join, whatever he told me and whatever threats he trow at me. He thought otherwise :P At the end he told me another letter with a new appointment will be send to me. Fine, I told him but that won't change anything and I would find reasons not to join.
Next appointment was about a month later. I came even more late, 1.5 hours, again as stoned as I could be. I entered the office, he looked at me and I saw his face changing to frustration. He asked me to come with him. Ofcourse a new discussion started but this time I had a paper from my own doctor and I marked everything on the list that I found in my family that could be a reason to fail the examination (sicknesses, allergies, etc). The discussion went on ... I remember 1 of his last questions. If I was going to f*ck it up for others. Absolutely was my answer :) At the end he took a paper, signed it, and told me: indefinite suspension until further notice and now leave. Never heard of them again :D I was lucky, if I did this 10 years earlier I probably would have end up in jail, but I didn't know that and I didn't care.
You see, you always have a choice :) But you also have to face the consequences.
And maybe this is interesting for you to read, Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army. Testimonies of israeli soldiers who can end up in jail for these testimonies.
And this is 1 of the docu's that really left an impression on me (I already posted it before), To See If I'm Smiling.
(edited)
I think you all miss a point.
The war is the goal! It's no more a way to get something.
the war is tha goal that both (Israeli gov and terroristic leaders) want to keep their power and make their money.
They gain money, control and power.. using and feeding rage and hate between people.
People just pay in diyng, suffering, poverty, blood etc..
When a terroristic group (let's remember Arafat OLP) or a Israeli leader (so much) go tofind a way for a real peace politic they are subsituted, killed or simply no more financiated..
the solution, I think it's obvious, stop selling weapons both sides, total embargo of everything BOTH SIDES (except food and medicine) .
The war is the goal! It's no more a way to get something.
the war is tha goal that both (Israeli gov and terroristic leaders) want to keep their power and make their money.
They gain money, control and power.. using and feeding rage and hate between people.
People just pay in diyng, suffering, poverty, blood etc..
When a terroristic group (let's remember Arafat OLP) or a Israeli leader (so much) go tofind a way for a real peace politic they are subsituted, killed or simply no more financiated..
the solution, I think it's obvious, stop selling weapons both sides, total embargo of everything BOTH SIDES (except food and medicine) .