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nevertheless it's a failure of both the system and the national communities
i, for first wouldn't want to be some canadian that accidentaly ends up in some serbian part of town where half of people don't speak english
every citizen should (or maybe even must) speak official language of the state and i can assure you that it's not the case.
example : my girlfriends family lives in paris. her aunt lives there for 25+ years and doesn't know even how to say "good day" in french.
with all paying taxes and not causing problems you can hardly say that is ok :/
(edited)
i, for first wouldn't want to be some canadian that accidentaly ends up in some serbian part of town where half of people don't speak english
every citizen should (or maybe even must) speak official language of the state and i can assure you that it's not the case.
example : my girlfriends family lives in paris. her aunt lives there for 25+ years and doesn't know even how to say "good day" in french.
with all paying taxes and not causing problems you can hardly say that is ok :/
(edited)
but still they pay taxes most of em i think got families and they dont cause problems?
Exactly :)
Exactly :)
multi-culturalism said its failles on France, England and Germany said by conservative leaders
I have a question for people living in north Europe, if multi... has really failled is a religious or cultural problem?
I ask that because we have emigrants but 20yo later than northen countries, some of this emigrants are catholics and speak our language ( south americans), and some are magrebis and muslims.
Even i dont really like to see catholic churches full again because inmigrants, i prefer catholic religion than muslim one, at least they let me drink a beer! I´d like an agnostic state. maybe the suns of this catholic emigrants get spanish mentalithy about religions ( hope)
I have a question for people living in north Europe, if multi... has really failled is a religious or cultural problem?
I ask that because we have emigrants but 20yo later than northen countries, some of this emigrants are catholics and speak our language ( south americans), and some are magrebis and muslims.
Even i dont really like to see catholic churches full again because inmigrants, i prefer catholic religion than muslim one, at least they let me drink a beer! I´d like an agnostic state. maybe the suns of this catholic emigrants get spanish mentalithy about religions ( hope)
When you see the problems with immigrants - for both the indigenous population and the immigrants themselves -, it is obvious that the multiculturalism that we know has failed big time. For me, that's not a statement, it's a fact.
I say this is ridiculous. In the Netherlands at least 2 million of the 16.7 million with a Dutch passport is not native Dutch (what is native and how can you link this to being Dutch with a colonial past is the question but ok ...). If multiculturalism was a complete failure my country should be in total chaos or at least in deep shit, but the opposite is true, I live in a country that scores with the best 20 countries in the world, sometimes even top 10, depanding of the subject. That's how bad it is over here .. :)
That there are problems, absolutely. Never in history a large movement of people was accepted by some or many natives that saw them comming ;) Blaming this to multiculturalism is just dumb. If Piet (real Dutch name) finish school, send a letter to a company he often gets an invitation for a job interview, if Mohammed finish this same school, send the same letter but his ends with Mohammed, the change he get a job interviews drops by something like 90%! That's not failing multiculturalism, that's just ordinairy racism. Besides, and I already wrote this, it aren't expansive residential areas were problems are, but poor outskirts of larger European cities. This looks to me more like a social problem and maybe even also a racial problem.
Focussing on a really small group and then come to the conclussion multiculturalism failed is just not true. Now some things that are real. If I order a packet almost always this is delivered by an Arab Dutch, early in the morning I see people working in the streets digging holes for fiber optic cables in rain and freezing cold, most are Turkish and Arab Dutch, cleaning companies wouldn't even exist without these Dutch, construction sites, farms etc, everywere you look you see Polish people in these businesses. The Netherlands is largly build by native Dutch, but absolutely not maintained by them ;)
I say this is ridiculous. In the Netherlands at least 2 million of the 16.7 million with a Dutch passport is not native Dutch (what is native and how can you link this to being Dutch with a colonial past is the question but ok ...). If multiculturalism was a complete failure my country should be in total chaos or at least in deep shit, but the opposite is true, I live in a country that scores with the best 20 countries in the world, sometimes even top 10, depanding of the subject. That's how bad it is over here .. :)
That there are problems, absolutely. Never in history a large movement of people was accepted by some or many natives that saw them comming ;) Blaming this to multiculturalism is just dumb. If Piet (real Dutch name) finish school, send a letter to a company he often gets an invitation for a job interview, if Mohammed finish this same school, send the same letter but his ends with Mohammed, the change he get a job interviews drops by something like 90%! That's not failing multiculturalism, that's just ordinairy racism. Besides, and I already wrote this, it aren't expansive residential areas were problems are, but poor outskirts of larger European cities. This looks to me more like a social problem and maybe even also a racial problem.
Focussing on a really small group and then come to the conclussion multiculturalism failed is just not true. Now some things that are real. If I order a packet almost always this is delivered by an Arab Dutch, early in the morning I see people working in the streets digging holes for fiber optic cables in rain and freezing cold, most are Turkish and Arab Dutch, cleaning companies wouldn't even exist without these Dutch, construction sites, farms etc, everywere you look you see Polish people in these businesses. The Netherlands is largly build by native Dutch, but absolutely not maintained by them ;)
I have a question for people living in north Europe, if multi... has really failled is a religious or cultural problem?
Very difficult to say, I think.
If you look at culture, in the Netherlands we have third or even fourth generation immigrants. You can't really say these people live by 'their' culture. Many only see their grandparents country when they go on holiday a few weeks. A good example are Moroccans. When they go on holiday to Morroco they are tourists, not really Moroccans anymore but Dutch, they have money, different live style etc. In the Netherlands the same people aren't really Dutch but Moroccans ... strange :) btw. every Arab in the Netherlands is called Morrocan and an Islamic. 1 big pile of people you can point your finger at and blame them ...
And a religious problem, no not really. I don't see any clashes between Christians and Moslims in the Netherlands, no strange Islamic laws, we celibrate only Christian days etc etc. When I pass a mosque in Utrecht the only people I see are old man. The problemyouth aren't in mosques but on the streets, most Moslims won't even consider these people religious only because they try not to eat during daytime for 1 holy month. Don't know why these people are called Moslims by so many .. probably because they look like Arabs and the propaganda that is used these days: Arab looks=Moslim=criminal=terrorist
But if there is a problem in the Netherlands with religion, the only people that attacked religious building, mosques, are anti-Moslim supporters. They tried to burn these buildings down.
So what is wrong, I don't know. But it went wrong somewhere in the last 30 years. And I think many are to blame. In some casses parents gave the wrong education, and people still live in the same crappy appartments as they did 30 years ago and those area's aren't in any way a good mix of all Dutch inhabitants anymore, people with money moved out, and people without moved in. Every large city in Europe has these problems. This is a political problem as gouverments could have seen this happening for decades. But rebuilding cities is expansive, and now we have the problems. Utrecht is completely rebuilding the city at the moment, everywere it's 1 big counstruction site. Old area's with crappy old 50's 10+ storey appartments are broken down, complete new area's are build with a lot of green and parks, a better mix of social housing and resale property so it becomes a mix of different social classes, and other things to improve living for everyone.
But it also has a lot to do with acceptance and tolerance. The atmosphere in Europe is changing, and not in a good way. It becomes unfriendly and hateful. And a lot of people don't even know any Arab or Moslim, so how can they judge a whole group without even knowing 1.
Very difficult to say, I think.
If you look at culture, in the Netherlands we have third or even fourth generation immigrants. You can't really say these people live by 'their' culture. Many only see their grandparents country when they go on holiday a few weeks. A good example are Moroccans. When they go on holiday to Morroco they are tourists, not really Moroccans anymore but Dutch, they have money, different live style etc. In the Netherlands the same people aren't really Dutch but Moroccans ... strange :) btw. every Arab in the Netherlands is called Morrocan and an Islamic. 1 big pile of people you can point your finger at and blame them ...
And a religious problem, no not really. I don't see any clashes between Christians and Moslims in the Netherlands, no strange Islamic laws, we celibrate only Christian days etc etc. When I pass a mosque in Utrecht the only people I see are old man. The problemyouth aren't in mosques but on the streets, most Moslims won't even consider these people religious only because they try not to eat during daytime for 1 holy month. Don't know why these people are called Moslims by so many .. probably because they look like Arabs and the propaganda that is used these days: Arab looks=Moslim=criminal=terrorist
But if there is a problem in the Netherlands with religion, the only people that attacked religious building, mosques, are anti-Moslim supporters. They tried to burn these buildings down.
So what is wrong, I don't know. But it went wrong somewhere in the last 30 years. And I think many are to blame. In some casses parents gave the wrong education, and people still live in the same crappy appartments as they did 30 years ago and those area's aren't in any way a good mix of all Dutch inhabitants anymore, people with money moved out, and people without moved in. Every large city in Europe has these problems. This is a political problem as gouverments could have seen this happening for decades. But rebuilding cities is expansive, and now we have the problems. Utrecht is completely rebuilding the city at the moment, everywere it's 1 big counstruction site. Old area's with crappy old 50's 10+ storey appartments are broken down, complete new area's are build with a lot of green and parks, a better mix of social housing and resale property so it becomes a mix of different social classes, and other things to improve living for everyone.
But it also has a lot to do with acceptance and tolerance. The atmosphere in Europe is changing, and not in a good way. It becomes unfriendly and hateful. And a lot of people don't even know any Arab or Moslim, so how can they judge a whole group without even knowing 1.
yeah, here is the same, with the excuse of anti-islamication neofascist groups are uprising again.
But we know the past, those people wont stop with the muslims if they got the power again, they will combat anyone but themselves :/
But we know the past, those people wont stop with the muslims if they got the power again, they will combat anyone but themselves :/
im looking these bbc report now, it seem interesting, a pity dosent have subtitles in spain, anyhow is so understable even for me
For me, the failing of multiculturalism isn't caused by religious reasons. For me, multiculturalism should be that people from all cultures can live here, but they have to accept that the local culture is the leading culture there. In Belgium, you even don't have to speak our language to live here ... Situations are created in which people who were born in Belgium, or even there parents were born here, but they still don't identify themselves as Belgian and are still not identified Belgian by the indigenous Belgians.
I can see that, is that a problem only with magrebi inmigration or also with another´s countries, like Romania p.e.? ( just questioning, not offence for Romania)
thkx for your point of view too
thkx for your point of view too
Well, the rules will be changed, so that you have to speak one of the three official Belgian languages, which are Dutch, French and German. The 'problem' is that African immigrants often speak French. So they don't bother to learn Dutch (which is the most spoken language in Belgium, it's the official language of the northern region, Flanders). Because of historical reasons, the Flemmings find the use of Dutch very important (because long time, French was seen as a superior language to Dutch). This is however a problem of all immigrants, they most of the time prefer to learn French. This immediately gives them no chance of work etc. in Flanders, because they don't know Dutch.
Oh, those English guys. They also have a screw loose :P
there is a large effect above that of not speaking the language. Unfamiliarity with the professional language doesn't explain all the variance, only a small part of it.
Of course it doesn't explain it completely, but I think it explain a vast amount of difference.