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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
The most important and serious opinion we have ever read at this forum.CONGRATULATION MATE..+1
Flanders are Flanders no matter in wich part of teritory they live.
You didn't get my point (which I don't blame you, 'cause I don't expect you to know the Flemish history).
My point: the people who lived in historic Flanders are different people than the people who live in current Flanders. The definition of a Fleming (an inhabitant of Flanders) has changed from 'inhabitant of the County of Flanders' (who could have been Dutch- or French-speaking) to 'Dutch-speaking inhabitant of Northern Belgium'.
So yes, definitions of nations and names change.
You didn't get my point (which I don't blame you, 'cause I don't expect you to know the Flemish history).
My point: the people who lived in historic Flanders are different people than the people who live in current Flanders. The definition of a Fleming (an inhabitant of Flanders) has changed from 'inhabitant of the County of Flanders' (who could have been Dutch- or French-speaking) to 'Dutch-speaking inhabitant of Northern Belgium'.
So yes, definitions of nations and names change.
This is the ridicules statement of Филип: definitions of nations and names can not change. Completely wrong! Yes they can and yes they do ;) Always did and will always continue to do so as the world is a dynamic place, not static. Borders are made-up and people move around.
FYI greek nation remained in the same part of the world in all your maps,
Yeh, would be really strange if it all of the sudden moved to Ireland ;)
so it's silly for some fyrom guys to come and claim that they are macedonians and part of greek nation's territory belongs to them. it's bs and it bothers me as a greek.
If you like to make your claim on land because of history, look at this (Macedonia):
balkans are not like central or western europe. nations' mentality, attitude and past here, are different than in other parts of the world.
Yeh, but everywhere in the world it's different, nothing special about that. Even moving from the south to the north of the Netherlands (bit more then 300km) is a huge difference in mentality. But all your examples are absolutely no reason to be ridiculously ultra-nationalistic, it's a choice if someone does, even a wrong choice! And people can be blamed for making the wrong choices, specially if they start to act according these wrong choices.
If you live in an area that is still trying to find the right borders then you know that is the situation, just accepting that will cause the least problems. No one lives a day less if some land is separated from the country they live in. And as I already showed in my other post, it happens all the time. And here is another example, also with some European tribes in it: History of Europe.
FYI greek nation remained in the same part of the world in all your maps,
Yeh, would be really strange if it all of the sudden moved to Ireland ;)
so it's silly for some fyrom guys to come and claim that they are macedonians and part of greek nation's territory belongs to them. it's bs and it bothers me as a greek.
If you like to make your claim on land because of history, look at this (Macedonia):
balkans are not like central or western europe. nations' mentality, attitude and past here, are different than in other parts of the world.
Yeh, but everywhere in the world it's different, nothing special about that. Even moving from the south to the north of the Netherlands (bit more then 300km) is a huge difference in mentality. But all your examples are absolutely no reason to be ridiculously ultra-nationalistic, it's a choice if someone does, even a wrong choice! And people can be blamed for making the wrong choices, specially if they start to act according these wrong choices.
If you live in an area that is still trying to find the right borders then you know that is the situation, just accepting that will cause the least problems. No one lives a day less if some land is separated from the country they live in. And as I already showed in my other post, it happens all the time. And here is another example, also with some European tribes in it: History of Europe.
So yes, definitions of nations and names change.
If it didn't these tribes would never have disappeared ;)
(edited)
If it didn't these tribes would never have disappeared ;)
(edited)
I am from Hulubulu clan and this is my territory, m
lol :P
lol :P
let's assume there is some other guy who would like to be called charles hill. no problem for that.
if he lived next to your house and claimed that your parents are his parents and not yours, and also that part of your house belongs to him and not you, what would you say?
No problem indeed, many others are called Charles Hill, but no one will claim my parents are his because they aren't (except for my brother and sister;)). And if someone will claim my parents are his parents, he is crazy and should be locked away in a mental hospital. But this example doesn't make sense at all, comparing a border with my parents :P
And the house I own is my house, the Netherlands is my country, I don't own it. So this is also an example that doesn't make sense :P If the 'Frisians' in the north of the Netherlands (Dutch who speak Frisian, but they are not real 'Frisians' anymore as Rubinho explained very well) want to be independent it's not up to me, that's politics as it's not my land.
if he lived next to your house and claimed that your parents are his parents and not yours, and also that part of your house belongs to him and not you, what would you say?
No problem indeed, many others are called Charles Hill, but no one will claim my parents are his because they aren't (except for my brother and sister;)). And if someone will claim my parents are his parents, he is crazy and should be locked away in a mental hospital. But this example doesn't make sense at all, comparing a border with my parents :P
And the house I own is my house, the Netherlands is my country, I don't own it. So this is also an example that doesn't make sense :P If the 'Frisians' in the north of the Netherlands (Dutch who speak Frisian, but they are not real 'Frisians' anymore as Rubinho explained very well) want to be independent it's not up to me, that's politics as it's not my land.
no the example is fine, because this is the case. they claim that they are predecessors of macedonians and alexander the great and also claim that the state of macedonia (which is part of greek country) belongs to them. in a greater perspective (as the examples given in greek crisis topic, relating countries with individuals), current situation matches exactly the example i gave you.
i never talked about borders in any of my posts. i focused on their propaganda and distortion of history and how dangerous are such issues for area's stability. but since you mentioned them, yes politics, border and national issues affect me and every greek. do you know how many military expenses does greek state pay every year due to its "friendly" neighbors? do you know how many illegal immigrants come to greece from our borders and what are the causes in greek economy? have you served any army duty for 1 year (or 2 years in cyprus)? etc etc don't greeks pay taxes for all these shit?
anyway, from your last sentence i understand that you do not care about your own nation (however as you mention, you do not care because it does not directly affect you and your land. if it did, then i guess you would). so plz stay out of such issues which are far away from you and you cannot understand, because here we care about our nation and our history. no offence.
i never talked about borders in any of my posts. i focused on their propaganda and distortion of history and how dangerous are such issues for area's stability. but since you mentioned them, yes politics, border and national issues affect me and every greek. do you know how many military expenses does greek state pay every year due to its "friendly" neighbors? do you know how many illegal immigrants come to greece from our borders and what are the causes in greek economy? have you served any army duty for 1 year (or 2 years in cyprus)? etc etc don't greeks pay taxes for all these shit?
anyway, from your last sentence i understand that you do not care about your own nation (however as you mention, you do not care because it does not directly affect you and your land. if it did, then i guess you would). so plz stay out of such issues which are far away from you and you cannot understand, because here we care about our nation and our history. no offence.
well..
thinking about it carefully..
if they invade greece..
you have your financial problem solved..
greece exsist no more ..
everybody is happy!
no?
:P
thinking about it carefully..
if they invade greece..
you have your financial problem solved..
greece exsist no more ..
everybody is happy!
no?
:P
greek crisis topic
I don't read that topic so I don't know what is in it.
they claim that they are predecessors of macedonians and alexander the great and also claim that the state of macedonia (which is part of greek country) belongs to them.
And they do have a point (Macedonia (region)), just as the opposite sites also have a point and that's why there are so many problems over borders. But 'tribes' is the same as something like 'cultures', it's not bound to borders and are overlapping and also move around and change over time. Trying to put a fixed border around it, that will always be on the right place, is impossible. But apparently to some people borders need to exist so they can say 'I'm this or that and you are not'.
To explain how useless borders and being nationalistic because of that is: just put some people from the north and south or east and west, with the same nationality, together in a room and everyone can see they aren't the same kind of people, they have different cultures, rituals, even languages etc etc, only their nationality is the same and that's only because of made-up borders. People from 2 different nationalities living really close to each other in the same region, but separated by a made-up border, are more the same kind of people as my previous example of north-south and east-west.
Oh, and this is something completely different with owning a house or having parents :P Non of these things have anything to do with owning property or who my parents are so that makes it a silly comparison.
i never talked about borders in .... for 1 year (or 2 years in cyprus)?
No, but borders has everything to do with it. If no one would care about borders, there wouldn't be any problems over it. Best would even be if there wouldn't be any borders at all. Then you would feel a more cultural connection with many people living close to you in your own region, a lesser cultural connection with people 200+km away and even less with people 1000+km away, just as it is now, only without fictional but also very realistic lines around pieces of land, called borders. Ofcourse this is impossible, but it would solve a lot of unnecessary problems.
And yes I know Greece has high military costs, and a lot of illegal immigration. And no I didn't serve in the Dutch army, I'm 1 of the last (proud) refusers to do obligatory military service :D
don't greeks pay taxes for all these shit?
Shit caused by everyone who can't accept change and act ultra-nationalistic and will teach their children also to think and act like that and they teach their children the same etc etc. so nothing will ever change or even get worse. Even the posts of yours about Macedonia and calling neighbors "friendly" is part of that shit ...
If my grandparent's would have taught my mom and dad to keep hating the Germans and my parents would have taught me the same, I would probably still hate the Germans and if everyone in the Netherlands has done the same thing, we would probably still had missiles aimed at Germany and pay the price for it .... but we don't have that shit :)
Same can even be said of Belgium that got independent of the Netherlands somewhere in the past. Do the Dutch have to hate them because of this history of both countries? Or is respecting each other a much more productive and long lasting solution? I think the second ...
anyway, from your last sentence i understand that you do not care about your own nation (however as you mention, you do not care because it does not directly affect you and your land. if it did, then i guess you would).
I do care but differently, at least not as obsessively as some others do. And I do understand that the world is always chancing, but others don't understand that, and that's not a shortcoming of me ;). 100 years ago everything was different, 200 years ago everything was even more different etc, and in 200 years from now nothing will be the same as we know it today.
And this 'directly affect' I think is mostly overreacting, let your brain do the thinking, not your emotions. I know I won't live a day less if Friesland (the province of the Frisians) will be independent.
so plz stay out of such issues which are far away from you and you cannot understand, because here we care about our nation and our history. no offence.
It has nothing to do with not understanding it. Because I don't think the same as you, doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it :) In fact, if people in that region would think more like me and less like you there wouldn't be that many ongoing problems, that's something I'm sure of.
(edited)
I don't read that topic so I don't know what is in it.
they claim that they are predecessors of macedonians and alexander the great and also claim that the state of macedonia (which is part of greek country) belongs to them.
And they do have a point (Macedonia (region)), just as the opposite sites also have a point and that's why there are so many problems over borders. But 'tribes' is the same as something like 'cultures', it's not bound to borders and are overlapping and also move around and change over time. Trying to put a fixed border around it, that will always be on the right place, is impossible. But apparently to some people borders need to exist so they can say 'I'm this or that and you are not'.
To explain how useless borders and being nationalistic because of that is: just put some people from the north and south or east and west, with the same nationality, together in a room and everyone can see they aren't the same kind of people, they have different cultures, rituals, even languages etc etc, only their nationality is the same and that's only because of made-up borders. People from 2 different nationalities living really close to each other in the same region, but separated by a made-up border, are more the same kind of people as my previous example of north-south and east-west.
Oh, and this is something completely different with owning a house or having parents :P Non of these things have anything to do with owning property or who my parents are so that makes it a silly comparison.
i never talked about borders in .... for 1 year (or 2 years in cyprus)?
No, but borders has everything to do with it. If no one would care about borders, there wouldn't be any problems over it. Best would even be if there wouldn't be any borders at all. Then you would feel a more cultural connection with many people living close to you in your own region, a lesser cultural connection with people 200+km away and even less with people 1000+km away, just as it is now, only without fictional but also very realistic lines around pieces of land, called borders. Ofcourse this is impossible, but it would solve a lot of unnecessary problems.
And yes I know Greece has high military costs, and a lot of illegal immigration. And no I didn't serve in the Dutch army, I'm 1 of the last (proud) refusers to do obligatory military service :D
don't greeks pay taxes for all these shit?
Shit caused by everyone who can't accept change and act ultra-nationalistic and will teach their children also to think and act like that and they teach their children the same etc etc. so nothing will ever change or even get worse. Even the posts of yours about Macedonia and calling neighbors "friendly" is part of that shit ...
If my grandparent's would have taught my mom and dad to keep hating the Germans and my parents would have taught me the same, I would probably still hate the Germans and if everyone in the Netherlands has done the same thing, we would probably still had missiles aimed at Germany and pay the price for it .... but we don't have that shit :)
Same can even be said of Belgium that got independent of the Netherlands somewhere in the past. Do the Dutch have to hate them because of this history of both countries? Or is respecting each other a much more productive and long lasting solution? I think the second ...
anyway, from your last sentence i understand that you do not care about your own nation (however as you mention, you do not care because it does not directly affect you and your land. if it did, then i guess you would).
I do care but differently, at least not as obsessively as some others do. And I do understand that the world is always chancing, but others don't understand that, and that's not a shortcoming of me ;). 100 years ago everything was different, 200 years ago everything was even more different etc, and in 200 years from now nothing will be the same as we know it today.
And this 'directly affect' I think is mostly overreacting, let your brain do the thinking, not your emotions. I know I won't live a day less if Friesland (the province of the Frisians) will be independent.
so plz stay out of such issues which are far away from you and you cannot understand, because here we care about our nation and our history. no offence.
It has nothing to do with not understanding it. Because I don't think the same as you, doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it :) In fact, if people in that region would think more like me and less like you there wouldn't be that many ongoing problems, that's something I'm sure of.
(edited)
I don't think it's spam, I just tried to explain it as good as I can ;) Oh, and that long post is also the last thing I want to say about it because I don't think some in here are willing to change the way they think and that makes posting more text a bit useless, I can spend my time much better on other things :)
In fact, if people in that region would think more like me and less like you there wouldn't be that many ongoing problems, that's something I'm sure of.
learn to read mate. you might have actually seen what i am talking about and what is my f point of view. from one of my previous posts:
personally i would like all this shit to let it go. but others dont. they are still dreaming of Great Greece, Great Albania, Great Turkey, Great Bulgaria, Great FYROM, etc. and all these fyrom-naming/kosovo are parts of such plans.
anyway, it was expected that you were going to respond like that. it's very common nowadays to judge people as ultra-nationalists or facists or ultra-patriots, when they just love their country and are insulted by others' lies and propaganda. and in fact, it's quite funny to think that for me, while i feel and think quite the opposite.
regarding your wiki link, i suggest you should study some real history books and not internet.
(edited)
learn to read mate. you might have actually seen what i am talking about and what is my f point of view. from one of my previous posts:
personally i would like all this shit to let it go. but others dont. they are still dreaming of Great Greece, Great Albania, Great Turkey, Great Bulgaria, Great FYROM, etc. and all these fyrom-naming/kosovo are parts of such plans.
anyway, it was expected that you were going to respond like that. it's very common nowadays to judge people as ultra-nationalists or facists or ultra-patriots, when they just love their country and are insulted by others' lies and propaganda. and in fact, it's quite funny to think that for me, while i feel and think quite the opposite.
regarding your wiki link, i suggest you should study some real history books and not internet.
(edited)
posting/discussing/etc is not always about convincing others. it's also about learning or viewing things/situations/issues from another perspective. i agree with many things you are saying, but i see others from a different angle than yours. cheers.
Lol, I just saw on the news the swearing of the new Greek government. No such thing as separation of the state and Church? ...
no there is no separation and this is one of the common debates in greek society. but government's swearing is more like a tradition.
learn to read mate. you might have actually seen what i am talking about and what is my f point of view. from one of my previous posts:
I have seen that, but your posts do have some double messages ;)
And not all of my post was meant just for you, it was also an overall comment to those who posted on the last few pages but 'are wearing blinkers' (as we would call it in Dutch). I have deliberately tried to leave the word 'you' out of my post as much as possible when it was an overall comment.
regarding your wiki link, i suggest you should study some real history books and not internet.
Yeh, and when I post about the regions of the Basques, Kurds, Tamils, Scots, Tibetans, Moluccans etc others will tell me the same ;P
I have seen that, but your posts do have some double messages ;)
And not all of my post was meant just for you, it was also an overall comment to those who posted on the last few pages but 'are wearing blinkers' (as we would call it in Dutch). I have deliberately tried to leave the word 'you' out of my post as much as possible when it was an overall comment.
regarding your wiki link, i suggest you should study some real history books and not internet.
Yeh, and when I post about the regions of the Basques, Kurds, Tamils, Scots, Tibetans, Moluccans etc others will tell me the same ;P