Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD

True, but that doesn't make what they did in the dark ages less wrong. Of course, this is personal. For me, killing is wrong, in every single case. Even a man like Hitler should never be sent to death penalty (if he'd been caught alive). That's why I don't care that it is Asia. It is wrong to do this with a kid.

All you say is true, I'm only disagreeing with the idea of universal values. :)

For example, I consider sexual interest in 10-12yo children as sick and utterly bad, but still, if I'm not mistake, in Gypsy culture it is a normal thing to marry a 12yo girl and have sex with her.

Values are closely linked with history and tradition and have changed in all cultures during their evolution. I believe that most, if not all, cultures are still evolving and changing their views on certain moral aspects.

Nazis are judged the way they are because they were part of a culture that condemned what they did.

This is not true. The Nazi's lived in a German culture (I'm not saying the German culture is Nazism to be clear) in which Jews were a lesser race. In which the life of a Jew had no value. So why would it be wrong to exterminate them?

German culture was not anti-semitic before Hitler entered the politics, at least I don't recall any particulat German actions that would give such impression.

It doesn't matter what was normal before Hitler. The Jews were killed during the Hitler-era. And at that time, it was completely normal to do that.

But that's not true about whole society. He didn't win the elections with slogans approving killing Jews, he explained his Jew-massacre plan when he had total political and military control.

Once again, doesn't matter. The people were being manipulated with propaganda why Jews were a lesser people. So if you say there are no universal values, you cannot judge the people who participated in the attempted extermination of the Jews.

Let me put it this way.

There is no such thing as German culture value-wise speaking. The crucial values were always at same 'level' in Europe, especially the Western part. There were only moments [when we take into account how long the European cultures lasts] when there appeared exceptions in certain parts of Europe from the European values and it went two ways - 1. the ideas were put down, usually by force 2. ideas were considered as good and spreaded through all countries.

What happened in Germany was an exception and ended in way nr. 1

and yes, you can judge them as they were part of Western European culture and by the standards of that time they can be judged.

There is no such thing as German culture value-wise speaking.

Sure there was. The things that were considered as normal in Germany during the Hitler rule were totally different from the ones in the other European countries.

The crucial values were always at same 'level' in Europe, especially the Western part.

Not true, see above.

Why would a German be wrong when he participated in the policy of his government at that time? It was considered as 'good'. One was not forced to join the SS. But the ones who did, didn't they just do the thing that was considered normal at that time in Germany?

If you say universal values don't exist, you must say that this is right. I say it is wrong, as I say every single man should always realize exterminating the Jews was plain wrong. Whatever your government says.

And by the way, antisemitism was widespread in Europe before WW II.
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Sure there was. The things that were considered as normal in Germany during the Hitler rule were totally different from the ones in the other European countries.

Read what I wrote once again, please.

Why would a German be wrong when he participated in the policy of his government at that time? It was considered as 'good'. One was not forced to join the SS. But the ones who did, didn't they just do the thing that was considered normal at that time in Germany?

In March 1939 Hitler proclaimed national service, so yes - one WAS forced to join the German army.

And by the way, antisemitism was widespread in Europe before WW II.

It occurred from time to time throughout all centuries in whole Europe, but what happened in Germany was not ordinary antisemitism.

In March 1939 Hitler proclaimed national service, so yes - one WAS forced to join the German army.

I didn't mention the German army. I said SS.

SS was the most indoctrinated part of German military/military police. All fanatics wanted to be part of it - what's the 'problem'? The worst, most nazi fanatics went to SS, some maybe for the profits and because of 'ambitious' nature. You find such people in every bigger group, there are always some fanatics on all sides of all conflicts, in all communist, nazist, fascist etc. societies.

Well, if you say that there are no universal values, you have no basis to judge them. They were indoctrinated. They did what was considered good by the propaganda in Germany at that time. They lived in Germany, not in Europe like we do now.

If you say there are universal values, you can say that every man should always realize the Holocaust was plain wrong.
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I already responded to that, as you've written it before ;-). You can disagree with me on that, but please don't make me write same posts again and again...:P

Just one thing:

If you say there are universal values, you can say that every man should always realize the Holocaust was plain wrong.

actually not 'should', but 'would always realize as plain wrong'

actually not 'should', but 'would always realize as plain wrong'

No, because the values are not always respected. For instance lying is considered bad, not lying is the value. However, I wouldn't say no man ever lies.