Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD

I know what independentism is. I'm in favor of an independent Flanders. I'm not a nationalist.

And I should have mentioned that people in Belgium consider nationalism and independentism as the same.

And what parties call themselves doesn't matter. What they stand for does. Nationalism is a collectivist idea (independentism isn't a collectivist idea). I consider collectivism to be left wing.

I also never said that the Catalan independentists are nationalists.

I have to explain the difference you make a lot in Belgium, most of the time to people who are progressive and collectivist.
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Does it have any sense in categorizing these concepts so strictly in such a narrow minded, 2 dimensional spectrum, like this left or right partition?

I just said it was interesting that the demand for autonomy or independence is often leftist-based, while in Belgium it is the opposite.

It's often leftist based and often rightist based. There's no connection. Leading parties of independent nations can be leftists and rightists, and same goes for independence movements too.

Yes. And I'm saying it's interesting if you compare the Catalan demand for autonomy with (for instance) the Flemish demand for autonomy. The leftists in Flanders (who oppose full autonomy or independence) use the complete opposite argumentation from their colleagues in Catalonia.

But nationalism (not indepedentism) is always collectivist.

Again, you try to describe huge, heterogeneous concepts, with a single characteristic. There are several types of nationalism. Some are collectivist, some are not.

Which type of nationalism is not collectivist?

Here's one type, however I'd rather call that patriotism.

But there's cultural nationalism too. There are nations living in several countries, but have a common culture and self consciousness, so you can't call it independentism (these countries are either independent already, or it's not the goal), or patriotism. But still in your childhood you've learned the same language, the same childhood stories, the same culture, you have something in common, and if you're conscious about it, that's cultural nationalism for you.

How is this collectivist? This doesn't influence your goals as an individual, for example you obviously don't have to pay taxes for the other state, even if there are people from your own nation living there. You don't really have to do much with it in the material way, it's just +1 type of consciousness for you. Among with your individual, consumer, environmental, employee, employer, religious, atheist, etc consciousnesses. Probably most people has several of those.

Here's one type, however I'd rather call that patriotism.

That's still a collective idea; the idea that an individual needs a group he belongs to in order to live a meaningful life.

How is this collectivist? This doesn't influence your goals as an individual, for example you obviously don't have to pay taxes for the other state, even if there are people from your own nation living there.

Taxes are not a requirement. Of course that's collectivism. It's a collective identity; you are an individual, yes, but of a larger group. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing (it can trigger true solidarity for instance). So what I mean is that nationalism is the idea that there is a group of people that 'is bigger' (apart from the numbers :p) than the individual level.

And very often, such nationalism leads to the idea that there is such a thing like sovereignty of a nation, while I prefer the sovereignty of the individual.

Are you human?

No.

Are you libertarian?

Are you asking obvious questions? Am I doing the same now?

You're afraid to say yes, because you already know, where it is going. :D

I am libertarian. Just make the analogy you want. Then I'll show you wrong ;-)
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So, you're not human. :D Now I'm more interested in the further explanation of this. :)