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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
The people are the nation
That's true, but how many people are demonstrating? The whole east probably stands behind the government. And there seem to be many violent protesters. I feel that media reports in Europe are too biased, I only read pro-Klitschko etc. EU and USA back Klitschko up and are discussing sanctions, wtf? It reminds me of Libya and Syria. They have nothing to do there, at most they could assist in negotiations (together with Russia). Let's hope the situation doesn't escalate further.
That's true, but how many people are demonstrating? The whole east probably stands behind the government. And there seem to be many violent protesters. I feel that media reports in Europe are too biased, I only read pro-Klitschko etc. EU and USA back Klitschko up and are discussing sanctions, wtf? It reminds me of Libya and Syria. They have nothing to do there, at most they could assist in negotiations (together with Russia). Let's hope the situation doesn't escalate further.
Shooting demonstrators with ball cartridge is quite sick. From this point, I don't think, that Janukovich is defensible. According to our (probably pro-EU) news, even his allies are leaving the party and Ukraine.
Of course, these can be lies, but it would be quite complicated to forge such brutal videos and pictures, that are everywhere.
Of course, these can be lies, but it would be quite complicated to forge such brutal videos and pictures, that are everywhere.
That's true, but how many people are demonstrating?
What's the relevance of that? I know the Swiss like democracy, but a majority cannot decide to shoot the minority (I'm not implying the Swiss would do that :p). Or at least, it shouldn't be able to.
They have nothing to do there, at most they could assist in negotiations (together with Russia).
With that I can agree. Diplomacy, but nothing more.
What's the relevance of that? I know the Swiss like democracy, but a majority cannot decide to shoot the minority (I'm not implying the Swiss would do that :p). Or at least, it shouldn't be able to.
They have nothing to do there, at most they could assist in negotiations (together with Russia).
With that I can agree. Diplomacy, but nothing more.
Well, Janukovich isn't the good guy of course (but I don't think that the in the protests involved Svoboda for example are any better). That people leave him and his party is understandable, in the long term he won't be able to withstand the pressure from EU/USA if they keep it up. I guess most of them are only opportunists who hope to drop off still at the right time.
And I'm sure most of the videos are genuine, we just shouldn't neglect that there is violence from the protesters' side as well. Like here: http://www.youtube.com/v/2q4TaZyKv3Y#t=105
@Levi
ofc, but just as well the minority or whatever group size can riot whole cities and expect that the government will do nothing about it. The means how these demonstrations/attacks are repelled is another subject.
And I'm sure most of the videos are genuine, we just shouldn't neglect that there is violence from the protesters' side as well. Like here: http://www.youtube.com/v/2q4TaZyKv3Y#t=105
@Levi
ofc, but just as well the minority or whatever group size can riot whole cities and expect that the government will do nothing about it. The means how these demonstrations/attacks are repelled is another subject.
Translation to english(read from above to bottom)
1. Govermentbuildings taken over by activist of Maiden(Pro-Europe)
2. Assault and/or blockade Goverment buildings
3. Street demonstrations
4. Police and hooligans attacking against (smaller) groups of demonstrants
5. Calm
From Independence to the Orange Revolution (2004-2012...)
...
Yanukovich and Putin shake on it
(edited)
The means how these demonstrations/attacks are repelled is another subject.
I don't think so. That's the point: the police has several weapons to repel riots, without killing people, like tear gas, gum cartridge, monitors (possibly with paint, so the militants can be identified later), etc. Nowadays there were many riots all over Europe, where people were throwing rocks at police. Here some of the rioting mob have airguns too, it seems. But they're being shot by SVDs. That's quite fair...
And the demonstrators shot by the sharpshooters weren't necessarily the most militant ones (like the girl, who posted that she was dying). How exactly should this calm down people? And what about the Titushky attacks? Is that acceptable that a government hires hooligans to beat people up?
And it's not that I'm a big fan of Svoboda, or even Timoshenko. They want to oppress minorities (mostly the Russians, and along with them the few Hungarians too). And as I know, not too many people care about Klitchko, who don't even speak Ukrainian well.
But the demonstrators are very heterogenous, and they will have to figure out, what will be the future of Ukraine, without Janukovich. Because I think, that no murderer dictator wannabes should be left in power. At least not in Europe.
I don't think so. That's the point: the police has several weapons to repel riots, without killing people, like tear gas, gum cartridge, monitors (possibly with paint, so the militants can be identified later), etc. Nowadays there were many riots all over Europe, where people were throwing rocks at police. Here some of the rioting mob have airguns too, it seems. But they're being shot by SVDs. That's quite fair...
And the demonstrators shot by the sharpshooters weren't necessarily the most militant ones (like the girl, who posted that she was dying). How exactly should this calm down people? And what about the Titushky attacks? Is that acceptable that a government hires hooligans to beat people up?
And it's not that I'm a big fan of Svoboda, or even Timoshenko. They want to oppress minorities (mostly the Russians, and along with them the few Hungarians too). And as I know, not too many people care about Klitchko, who don't even speak Ukrainian well.
But the demonstrators are very heterogenous, and they will have to figure out, what will be the future of Ukraine, without Janukovich. Because I think, that no murderer dictator wannabes should be left in power. At least not in Europe.
If you look at the picture of Gohf you can't just simply draw a line and say, 'this side is pro' and 'that side is anti', demontrations are almost everywhere in the country, only not all as violent.
Venezuela is also starting to become a mess.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/19/venezuelan-protester-dies-from-bullet-wound-5th-fatality-of-unrest/
http://www.euronews.com/2014/02/19/venezuelan-protester-dies-from-bullet-wound-5th-fatality-of-unrest/
But there existe ultraviolence, no só controlled like in Ukraine.
Here in Brasil we're hav ing a lot of riots also, de dont wanna WC, it was o ly a way for politics stole our money, and they still robbing =(
Here in Brasil we're hav ing a lot of riots also, de dont wanna WC, it was o ly a way for politics stole our money, and they still robbing =(
Left Ukraine or right Ukraine, I don't like both of them. Some of them are pro-Russia, some of them (which probably isn't covered in your news, as it is barely mentioned in Poland) are supporters of Stepan Bandera - they consider him as national hero.
In short, he was the guy responsible for killing Polish civilians, including women and children - this is the hero of right-wing Ukraine.
Right-wing Ukraine leaders claim in interviews that if they take control of Ukraine they will refuse to join EU [not a bad thing to be honest] and will fight to retrieve 'Ukrainian' territory from Poland.
It might sound bad, but I like Ukraine the way it was before revolution - weak and divided.
They are not and never will be friendly, it doesn't matter if they will become openly (pro)Russian, or if the become a right-wing nationalist country.
(edited)
In short, he was the guy responsible for killing Polish civilians, including women and children - this is the hero of right-wing Ukraine.
Right-wing Ukraine leaders claim in interviews that if they take control of Ukraine they will refuse to join EU [not a bad thing to be honest] and will fight to retrieve 'Ukrainian' territory from Poland.
It might sound bad, but I like Ukraine the way it was before revolution - weak and divided.
They are not and never will be friendly, it doesn't matter if they will become openly (pro)Russian, or if the become a right-wing nationalist country.
(edited)
What's the relevance of that? I know the Swiss like democracy, but a majority cannot decide to shoot the minority (I'm not implying the Swiss would do that :p). Or at least, it shouldn't be able to.
Imagine that a minority in Belgium would start riots and attack government buidings, trying to take over them, thus (symbolically) take by force the power.
I don't try to legitimise killing people, but there are always two sides of a coin. If I have to choose, I prefer to take the side of those who defend, not those who attack.
If the Ukr government's idea would be to stop the riots by force, it would've been done in a couple of hours, 2-3 at most. They're not shooting them to stop their ideas and beliefs, they are shooting them to defend themselves.
Imagine that a minority in Belgium would start riots and attack government buidings, trying to take over them, thus (symbolically) take by force the power.
I don't try to legitimise killing people, but there are always two sides of a coin. If I have to choose, I prefer to take the side of those who defend, not those who attack.
If the Ukr government's idea would be to stop the riots by force, it would've been done in a couple of hours, 2-3 at most. They're not shooting them to stop their ideas and beliefs, they are shooting them to defend themselves.
Interesting thing about the graph you've shown.
I'm not saying it's the only factor, but...how do you feel, why is the East far calmer?
In a way, of course, because they are pro-Russia and support current president and rulers.
But they are also the wealthier part of Ukraine (Donetsk says it all, if somebody doesn't understand - check wiki).
Poor people will always be revolution-prone because they are deluded and think that overthrowing the current rulers will change their financial situation. It won't, at least not in most cases and it will never happen instantly.
I'm not saying it's the only factor, but...how do you feel, why is the East far calmer?
In a way, of course, because they are pro-Russia and support current president and rulers.
But they are also the wealthier part of Ukraine (Donetsk says it all, if somebody doesn't understand - check wiki).
Poor people will always be revolution-prone because they are deluded and think that overthrowing the current rulers will change their financial situation. It won't, at least not in most cases and it will never happen instantly.
They are not and never will be friendly, it doesn't matter if they will become openly (pro)Russian, or if the become a right-wing nationalist country.
For me, this is across the border of racism. The Ukrainians will never be a friendly people. Yes, and the Poles will always be thieves. And the Germans will never be a peaceful people with their constant search for Lebensraum. I was hoping we could let such stupid stereotypes behind us.
For me, this is across the border of racism. The Ukrainians will never be a friendly people. Yes, and the Poles will always be thieves. And the Germans will never be a peaceful people with their constant search for Lebensraum. I was hoping we could let such stupid stereotypes behind us.