Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD

They are not and never will be friendly, it doesn't matter if they will become openly (pro)Russian, or if the become a right-wing nationalist country.

For me, this is across the border of racism. The Ukrainians will never be a friendly people. Yes, and the Poles will always be thieves. And the Germans will never be a peaceful people with their constant search for Lebensraum. I was hoping we could let such stupid stereotypes behind us.

Imagine that a minority in Belgium would start riots and attack government buidings, trying to take over them, thus (symbolically) take by force the power.

Quite frankly, that's what they call the Belgian Revolution. A minority took power away from the Dutch by force (with the backing of France) when Belgium gained independence.

I don't try to legitimise killing people, but there are always two sides of a coin. If I have to choose, I prefer to take the side of those who defend, not those who attack.

Look, if you've followed this topic in the past, you'll be aware that I'm rather skeptical concerning revolutions. I'm also not denying that a part of the protests are non-peaceful. However, that's not that relevant in determining if the establishment has the right to shoot at the protesters. People always have the right to peacefully protest against the government. Always.

It's not about stereotypes, it's about what they say. Politically they will never be friendly for Poland.

Read about Bandera, read about how many people [from what I remember over 70 thousand civilians, mostly children and women] he murdered with his friends. Then please understand that current right wing of Ukraine considers him a national hero.

They were chanting 'slawa Ukrainie, slawa herojom' from the start of revolution - it means 'praise Ukraine, praise the heroes'. The heroes are those murderers.

Therefore I'm sorry - until I see two sides of Ukraine, one which is pro-Russia and the other which is anti-Polish, I won't consider Ukraine as a friendly country. There are some things you don't do and you don't say, they cross the line.

I have no problem with ordinary Ukrainians - I met many of them in Warsaw, got to know some of them and they are nice, friendly people (and have some really hot women). I have no problem with Ukrainians as Ukrainians, I have a problem with their politics.
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Quite frankly, that's what they call the Belgian Revolution. A minority took power away from the Dutch by force (with the backing of France) when Belgium gained independence.

Independence struggles are something different than overthrowing the ruling majority.

I'm not really a strong believer in democracy, but I don't like to live in a world where aggressive people take the political power by force and impose what they want on the rest of society.

Look, if you've followed this topic in the past, you'll be aware that I'm rather skeptical concerning revolutions. I'm also not denying that a part of the protests are non-peaceful. However, that's not that relevant in determining if the establishment has the right to shoot at the protesters. People always have the right to peacefully protest against the government. Always.

Are they shooting the peaceful protesters, or those who are aggressive?

Politically they will never be friendly for Poland.

Like the French and the Germans. Like the French and the British. Well, I guess those have changed, no?

Look, I'm not denying that the Ukrainians and the Polish have ... some kind of history. (I didn't search for Bandera, but I guess he was involved during the Nazi-occupation of Eastern Europe.)

Independence struggles are something different than overthrowing the ruling majority.

It was a minority (in Belgium) who fought for independence. (To remind you: there has always been a Dutch-speaking majority in the Southern Netherlands aka Belgium.) But this is not that important.

I'm not really a strong believer in democracy, but I don't like to live in a world where aggressive people take the political power by force and impose what they want on the rest of society.

I used to be a strong believer in democracy, but then I realized how stupid most people really are. I don't want anyone to impose their will on the rest of society.

Are they shooting the peaceful protesters, or those who are aggressive?

Both it seems.

Occupation is one thing, war is one thing - I have no problem with those, as they are basically written into the basic nature of people. Those were always happening.

I have a problem with killing civilians because of their nationality, beliefs, religion, race. I have a problem with killing children and women during war.

I have a problem with those, who praise such beasts.

Ethnic cleansing in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia

They were no different than the Nazi swine murdering Jews, they just had a different scale of operation.

I don't mind the fact that some Ukrainians, XX years ago, did it. Every country has their dark sides in the history.

I have a problem with the fact that they don't feel sorry for what happend, but consider him a national hero. It's as if Hitler was the national hero for Germany, please try to understand it.

I used to be a strong believer in democracy, but then I realized how stupid most people really are. I don't want anyone to impose their will on the rest of society.

Yes, but those who take power by force usually aren't smart as well.

Both it seems.

There were no shootings as long as the government felt safe. The moment they got threatened, they started to defend in a serious and deadly way. Which is a sad thing of course, but in my eyes it is understandable.

Do you think that the highest profile leaders of Ukraine would be left peacefully after the end of revolution had the right wing won? No, they would be murdered, probably in a fancy way, in public.

Look, no need for that history lesson. I know what happened in Eastern Europe was totally inhumane. (And yes, a lot of people I know don't realize what happened in Eastern Europe; that it was far worse than what Belgium or the Netherlands went through.) And yes, in principle, celebrating those people is like Germans celebrating Hitler (in principle; one might argue that the degree is different).

However, one cannot (or should not) say that Ukraine as a state and/or nation is not friendly (or whatever) because that state and/or nation has retards living in it. Every country has dark sides, and every country has morons.

It's not like French and Germans, or French and British. Those conflicts only have past, but there's nothing in the present.

Right wing Ukrainians want to restrain the non-Ukrainian minorities in the present and the future. It's quite different from French and British, who were fighting for 100 years 500 years before now.

Yes, but those who take power by force usually aren't smart as well.

I'm never in favor of people taking power by force either. Don't push me in the corner of the protesters.

Do you think that the highest profile leaders of Ukraine would be left peacefully after the end of revolution had the right wing won? No, they would be murdered, probably in a fancy way, in public.

There's a good chance that would have happened.

Look, such revolutions are always a complete mess. That's why I never pick sides. Only history can tell whose demands were most justified.

It's not like French and Germans, or French and British. Those conflicts only have past, but there's nothing in the present.

Are you saying that currently, there is a conflict between the Polish and the Ukrainians (or their states)?

Right wing Ukrainians want to restrain the non-Ukrainian minorities in the present and the future.

Just like there are probably still Germans who want to retake their historical Eastern regions or Elzas-Lotharingen. As long as they don't rise to power, there is no problem. So yes, I can understand Borkos not wanting them to take power. But honestly, that's a poor argument to defend the current government.

Look, the difference is that in Germany you don't have right wing parties with huge support, who today praise Hitler and what he did and say that he was a hero.

Bandera is still a national hero for a big part of Ukraine, that is my problem. My problem is that many of them say openly that they want to take back the Volhynia etc. from Poland because these are 'Ukrainian territories'.

As I've said - I have no problem with Ukrainians as people, I don't say that they are predominantly evil. But a lot of water has run through the rivers since that massacre and they still have not officially condemned what Bandera did and never said 'sorry' for it, despite Polish attempts for reconiciliation. They still claim that what he did was good and that he is a hero.

Therefore sorry, but I won't see Ukraine as a friendly country until they won't change their attitude towards Poland and towards what happened.

The police doesn't only shoot the violent protesters. Several (if not the majority) of the people shot by the police, were wielding only a shield, or didn't do anything at all, just standing in a square. That's not defending themselves, that's provocation and murder. Yanukovich and the leaders of the police should be taken to the court after this, but the really responsible people won't be punished.

And isn't that violent, how the government put the previous prime minister in jail?

I'm never in favor of people taking power by force either. Don't push me in the corner of the protesters.

I'm not. I'm just justifying why I don't feel like supporting, or feeling sorry for those who took aggressive action.

Look, such revolutions are always a complete mess. That's why I never pick sides. Only history can tell whose demands were most justified.

It's not only about the demands, it's also about methods by which one tries to achieve his goals.

As long as they don't rise to power, there is no problem. So yes, I can understand Borkos not wanting them to take power. But honestly, that's a poor argument to defend the current government.

I'm not defending the government. I'm saying that I don't like both the government and its alternative/opposition.

And there is a problem when such movement has such a big backing of the society.

@sztratos
The police doesn't only shoot the violent protesters. Several (if not the majority) of the people shot by the police, were wielding only a shield, or didn't do anything at all, just standing in a square. That's not defending themselves, that's provocation and murder. Yanukovich and the leaders of the police should be taken to the court after this, but the really responsible people won't be punished.

IF that was the case, then naturally you are right.

And isn't that violent, how the government put the previous prime minister in jail?

I'm not justifying what their government did. As I've mentioned previously, I don't like what both sides did/are doing.
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I'm saying, that Svoboda (and probably other right-wing groups too) has a political program, to oppress minorities, and Timoshenko started smaller restraints, when she was in power. I don't know how many Polish minorities are there, and what's their situations.

But I have read an interview with a Svoboda politician, and he said, they don't have any problems with the Hungarians, but they will restrain their rights, because Ukraine is only for Ukrainians, and they are proud of it.