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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
In the region of Veneto there just have been a so-called referendum for the indipendence. The governor of Veneto is Luca Zaia, who belongs to the party Lega. The full name of the party is "Lega Nord per l'Indipendenza della Padania". ("Padania", in Lega's opinion, is the northen Italy, approximately from Florence to all the north-Italy.)
Well, Zaia himself said that he voted yes for the indipendence, but also said that this is just an online-poll. In fact, a part of the votes will be deducted becouse they're false: someone voted more times and someone voted with a false ID.
Anyway, if there'll be a true referendum for the indipendence, I certainly won't blame nobody.
I leave in Brescia, which is very close to Veneto and was dominated by the "Repubblica Serenissima" for long time. I think in Italy we'd live in better condictions if we divide the country. We had the "Rinascimento" (Renaissance) when Italy was divided in several indipendent countries. We have very different economies, and also the languages (which after the 1860 are just dialects) are very different from Veneto, to Lombardia, to Campania, to Sicily.
As the euro experience should teach us, very different economies with the same currency, doesn't work. And that's why in Lombardy we have more than 3x times the GDP per capita then Calabria or Basilicata... Maybe a secession is not strictly required, but imho it should not be a taboo.
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Well, Zaia himself said that he voted yes for the indipendence, but also said that this is just an online-poll. In fact, a part of the votes will be deducted becouse they're false: someone voted more times and someone voted with a false ID.
Anyway, if there'll be a true referendum for the indipendence, I certainly won't blame nobody.
I leave in Brescia, which is very close to Veneto and was dominated by the "Repubblica Serenissima" for long time. I think in Italy we'd live in better condictions if we divide the country. We had the "Rinascimento" (Renaissance) when Italy was divided in several indipendent countries. We have very different economies, and also the languages (which after the 1860 are just dialects) are very different from Veneto, to Lombardia, to Campania, to Sicily.
As the euro experience should teach us, very different economies with the same currency, doesn't work. And that's why in Lombardy we have more than 3x times the GDP per capita then Calabria or Basilicata... Maybe a secession is not strictly required, but imho it should not be a taboo.
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A referendum with absolutely no gunpoint
A referendum in Ukraine not held by the Ukraine, illegal then, right? Or is this already to difficult to understand? And a referemdum with only 2 options, independence or Russia ... what happened to the third option Ukraine?? 'If you don't like the option, just leave it out', that's ok??
Are you really this dumb or do you do it on purpose? I don't understand how normal thinking people can act this stupid and believe/support the Russian crap. Or maybe it's my overestimation, also a possibility ...
I think this is a dead end talk, so may I suggest to don't go further with this?
Please do!!! It is your own suggestion so do it.
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A referendum in Ukraine not held by the Ukraine, illegal then, right? Or is this already to difficult to understand? And a referemdum with only 2 options, independence or Russia ... what happened to the third option Ukraine?? 'If you don't like the option, just leave it out', that's ok??
Are you really this dumb or do you do it on purpose? I don't understand how normal thinking people can act this stupid and believe/support the Russian crap. Or maybe it's my overestimation, also a possibility ...
I think this is a dead end talk, so may I suggest to don't go further with this?
Please do!!! It is your own suggestion so do it.
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You need to check your info,
temporary gov. in Ukrainie was accepted by the international community, russia was the only country who did accept them (they witheld their voice at the begining), only so that a week later they could "justify" their invasion, and even then for another wekk they pretended it wasn't actually them... blatend lie from Putin, did you watch the press conference in early march when he said that the army in maidan, "probably bought their uniforms from "demobil" shops (don't know how to translate that)" (which we now know came in boxes on the russian miliatry transports) and the he assumed that the Yanukovich snipers, were actually "pro-EU" forces trained in Poland or Lithuania, blatend lie, just like the later lies, that Crimea was always a part of russia. But lets say you accept the pro-russian propaganda, don't see the military presence... and so on, lets get to the numbers, in the last election, Yanukovich got 30% of the votes when he won, the opposition got 25%, +13%, +10% from the party that had nationalistic far-right affiliation few years earlier. (on to of that 10% were pure comunists, and now) when you add this up, russian is not recocnising the temporary government that has at least 48% of the vote, and when you add the rest that are still prepersented like the communists, it piles up to over 58%/60% of the representatives of Ukrainian votes, who voted, which actually represents over 3/4 of the people in Ukrainie. (its not up to you, or russia! Putin to LABEL THEM ALL AS FACISTS, because they simply are not. there is 10% of representatives that are right wing nationalists, now compare that to other countries this is about the normal bit of the right wing spectrum of UKIP type parties,
russia not accepting the government makes NO Sense at all, unless you want to invade... of course, then you can do whatever you want, for example say that the oppsition "abolished a language" which they didn't they only tried to push through a resolution that the official documents in the whole of Ukraine will be in Ukrainian, not Russian, (despite I also think it was a minor mistake) it has nothing to do with represing russian, or Crimea. Unless you are russia who want to invade, then you can pretty much do what you want, which they did, after storming ukrainian bases in crimea by "masked gunmen", they installed a government in Crimea (sergei aksjonov) who in the last crimean parlamentary elections got 4% of the Crimean people votes!!!!
He was put in power in crimea for a month! to do to fix the referendum so that there is no mistake in the populist view that Crimea is 96% russian, which is laughable, as it was about 55/60% only a month before, the russian army invasion, crimean tatars boycoted the vote, so 80% turn out simply doesn't add up.... and when you had some idea of how soviet propaganda works, you would have only one conclusion which is the conclusion of 191 countries in the United Nations, against 1 Russia, (China withheld their opinion) So again, how naive do you have to be..??? of how poorly are you checking your information.
And the concept of Yanukovich still being the only lawful president is also muddled up, as he is nowhere to be seen, (apart for two recitations straight from a page, were he blamed his won earlier decision, on the new gov.?!?!) secondly he definatly is not in control of HIS affairs in ukraine, a thirdy he dis not have the power to invite a foreign army alone with one piece of paper (Ukrainian government would have to agree to that) and most of all he signed a agreement with the oppsition on the 21 feburary before the russian crimean mess, which he broke the next week (of couse blaming it on Maidan, and the "facists" of course), with russian forces INVADING another country at the time, which is happening constantly form 1 march, to NOW. watch the VICE news, russian roulette vidoes, they are not bias.
It boils down to , that maybe you see it as a holiday of the russian army, 191 UN countires including Italy, se it as a occupation, and infringement of international agreements and county boarders. Maybe you don't mind the german army in Bolzano, but what about the Italian in Bolzano? like the Ukrainian and Tarars in Crimea. And so on... maybe you don't care if you live in germany or russia but thats a whole different story because of the standard, in Crimea they are now given the choise, of no choice: pick one: water from Ukraine, or Gas/heat from Russia. It gets slightly more complicated, when there is no money they, and instead you have the russian army, a month before their main source of income that comes from tourists... how blind, do you have to be not to see the impact on the actual place, and the manipulations that are only in russia's favor, not the place or the people of Crimea, definatly no the Ukrainians that for the last 20 years, lived a decent life in Ukrainian autonomous! region of Crimea.
and so, on..
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temporary gov. in Ukrainie was accepted by the international community, russia was the only country who did accept them (they witheld their voice at the begining), only so that a week later they could "justify" their invasion, and even then for another wekk they pretended it wasn't actually them... blatend lie from Putin, did you watch the press conference in early march when he said that the army in maidan, "probably bought their uniforms from "demobil" shops (don't know how to translate that)" (which we now know came in boxes on the russian miliatry transports) and the he assumed that the Yanukovich snipers, were actually "pro-EU" forces trained in Poland or Lithuania, blatend lie, just like the later lies, that Crimea was always a part of russia. But lets say you accept the pro-russian propaganda, don't see the military presence... and so on, lets get to the numbers, in the last election, Yanukovich got 30% of the votes when he won, the opposition got 25%, +13%, +10% from the party that had nationalistic far-right affiliation few years earlier. (on to of that 10% were pure comunists, and now) when you add this up, russian is not recocnising the temporary government that has at least 48% of the vote, and when you add the rest that are still prepersented like the communists, it piles up to over 58%/60% of the representatives of Ukrainian votes, who voted, which actually represents over 3/4 of the people in Ukrainie. (its not up to you, or russia! Putin to LABEL THEM ALL AS FACISTS, because they simply are not. there is 10% of representatives that are right wing nationalists, now compare that to other countries this is about the normal bit of the right wing spectrum of UKIP type parties,
russia not accepting the government makes NO Sense at all, unless you want to invade... of course, then you can do whatever you want, for example say that the oppsition "abolished a language" which they didn't they only tried to push through a resolution that the official documents in the whole of Ukraine will be in Ukrainian, not Russian, (despite I also think it was a minor mistake) it has nothing to do with represing russian, or Crimea. Unless you are russia who want to invade, then you can pretty much do what you want, which they did, after storming ukrainian bases in crimea by "masked gunmen", they installed a government in Crimea (sergei aksjonov) who in the last crimean parlamentary elections got 4% of the Crimean people votes!!!!
He was put in power in crimea for a month! to do to fix the referendum so that there is no mistake in the populist view that Crimea is 96% russian, which is laughable, as it was about 55/60% only a month before, the russian army invasion, crimean tatars boycoted the vote, so 80% turn out simply doesn't add up.... and when you had some idea of how soviet propaganda works, you would have only one conclusion which is the conclusion of 191 countries in the United Nations, against 1 Russia, (China withheld their opinion) So again, how naive do you have to be..??? of how poorly are you checking your information.
And the concept of Yanukovich still being the only lawful president is also muddled up, as he is nowhere to be seen, (apart for two recitations straight from a page, were he blamed his won earlier decision, on the new gov.?!?!) secondly he definatly is not in control of HIS affairs in ukraine, a thirdy he dis not have the power to invite a foreign army alone with one piece of paper (Ukrainian government would have to agree to that) and most of all he signed a agreement with the oppsition on the 21 feburary before the russian crimean mess, which he broke the next week (of couse blaming it on Maidan, and the "facists" of course), with russian forces INVADING another country at the time, which is happening constantly form 1 march, to NOW. watch the VICE news, russian roulette vidoes, they are not bias.
It boils down to , that maybe you see it as a holiday of the russian army, 191 UN countires including Italy, se it as a occupation, and infringement of international agreements and county boarders. Maybe you don't mind the german army in Bolzano, but what about the Italian in Bolzano? like the Ukrainian and Tarars in Crimea. And so on... maybe you don't care if you live in germany or russia but thats a whole different story because of the standard, in Crimea they are now given the choise, of no choice: pick one: water from Ukraine, or Gas/heat from Russia. It gets slightly more complicated, when there is no money they, and instead you have the russian army, a month before their main source of income that comes from tourists... how blind, do you have to be not to see the impact on the actual place, and the manipulations that are only in russia's favor, not the place or the people of Crimea, definatly no the Ukrainians that for the last 20 years, lived a decent life in Ukrainian autonomous! region of Crimea.
and so, on..
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I don't understand how normal thinking people can act this stupid and believe/support the Russian crap.
Cos your opinion is brainwashed by your manipulated media. Why it is so hard to understand :-) ?
Cos your opinion is brainwashed by your manipulated media. Why it is so hard to understand :-) ?
it doesnt matter how long you can describe this...you are wrong, Crimea is now russian and case is closed for every. we can end this theme....
My friend, it's hard to reply to a post like that, without any links and full of inaccuracies and mystifications of the truth.
I don't have to much time, so by the moment I only reply to this assertion, becouse imho is extremly significant:
and when you had some idea of how soviet propaganda works, you would have only one conclusion which is the conclusion of 191 countries in the United Nations, against 1 Russia, (China withheld their opinion) So again, how naive do you have to be..??? of how poorly are you checking your information.
It's significant becouse you assume I am the one who poorly check my information, while it would be enough to check wikipedia to understand what kind of [with all respect] bullshit you're telling.
Wikipedia (with quotes) on crimean referendum
The United Nations Security Council voted 13–1 (with one abstention: China) to condemn the referendum, but Russia vetoed the draft resolution.[157]
Just to tell you how the Security Council works...
So it's 13-1, not 191-1.
But still you have to consider that the countries voted for this resolution, perfectly knew that Russia would vetoed this, so why thake it so long? Let's vote what America wants and then we can go back to the hotel...
For exemple, Argentina voted yes, but...
Argentina – The President of Argentina Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, whose nation currently is a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, criticized the United States, the European Union and the United Kingdom stating the hypocrisy that comes from trying to be "guarantors" of the world. Kirchner further stated the double standards of the aforementioned bodies by stating that "a referendum done by Crimea is bad but one done by the 'Kelpers' (the people of the Falkland Islands) is good" in reference to the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute and its recent referendum in 2013.
When I have time, I'll reply to other part of your post ;)
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I don't have to much time, so by the moment I only reply to this assertion, becouse imho is extremly significant:
and when you had some idea of how soviet propaganda works, you would have only one conclusion which is the conclusion of 191 countries in the United Nations, against 1 Russia, (China withheld their opinion) So again, how naive do you have to be..??? of how poorly are you checking your information.
It's significant becouse you assume I am the one who poorly check my information, while it would be enough to check wikipedia to understand what kind of [with all respect] bullshit you're telling.
Wikipedia (with quotes) on crimean referendum
The United Nations Security Council voted 13–1 (with one abstention: China) to condemn the referendum, but Russia vetoed the draft resolution.[157]
Just to tell you how the Security Council works...
So it's 13-1, not 191-1.
But still you have to consider that the countries voted for this resolution, perfectly knew that Russia would vetoed this, so why thake it so long? Let's vote what America wants and then we can go back to the hotel...
For exemple, Argentina voted yes, but...
Argentina – The President of Argentina Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, whose nation currently is a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, criticized the United States, the European Union and the United Kingdom stating the hypocrisy that comes from trying to be "guarantors" of the world. Kirchner further stated the double standards of the aforementioned bodies by stating that "a referendum done by Crimea is bad but one done by the 'Kelpers' (the people of the Falkland Islands) is good" in reference to the Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute and its recent referendum in 2013.
When I have time, I'll reply to other part of your post ;)
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You missed the point completly, firstly on 1 march Russia invaded Ukrainie in Crimea -fact (no matter how much you want me to be wrong), secondly since russian troops were in Crimea, russia (or if you prefer the "crimean guard made of 100% russians - made up on the spot, by the russian army) had no right whatsoever by the Ukrainian constitution (old or new) to do any referendum in Ukrainie. Esspecial throu a man who got 4% in the last Crimean parliment election,and used masked military men to get in the parliment. The Stance of 190 or maybe 100 coutries is quite clear, there is not much difference in general, and even if russia veto'ed the UN council stance - which was more that obvious that they would.
again:
1.Russian army in Crimea - illegal by international and Ukrainian law. 1 March
2.the prepreation for self determining referendum, and the question to join russia!!? makin up the russian crimean guard - all illegal by Ukrainian law. (with Yanukovich, or without, it was illegal, by the old or new constitution it was illegal) instilling a illegal crimean (russian) leader, in the crimena parliment by force (sergier akjskonov), the video with the russian military at night.
3.and only then the referedum itself, "legal" only in the country that is gaining territory by stealing it, literaly... the UN reaction is the least of Ukrainian worries. Read abour the stance of the other 13 countries that didn't vote in the UN they are clear, and I know, 1-13, 1-20, whatever the number its still ONE RUSSIA, INVADING a Neighbouring COUNTRY, in the NAME OF ADDING IT TO RUSSIA.
How hard is it to grasp?, I am very interested in your anwser to the main points of russian not accepting the opposition government which represenst over half of Ukrainias, and on the other hand they(russia) had no problem installing Sergei Aksjonov who got 4% of the Crimean parliment votes, as the crimean authority to organise the self determinig referendum.
As for the Argentina stance its clear from that statement that its a grudge to UK, for the falkland islands, and has nothing to do with the crimean referendum, which is the case here, not kosovo, not iraq, not falklands.
and now spot the differnce between the stance of a country, and the UN Security Council vote to condemn Crimean referendum
PS: okay, maybe I am emotional about this crap, but you would be too if it was your great-grand parents, or grand parents, who were killed by russian troops, and your surviving family lost their livelihoods because of it. And now Putin decides to re-start the cold war, and change borders in favor of the "russian empire", which 75 years ago killed tens of millions of people, more than Hitler, and now that they are "anschluss"-ing a part of Ukraine, and they wear the same colours of their so called "victory" in wwII "the patriotic" war, after they changes sides, earlier stabbing Poland in the back when hitler invaded it, and occupying it until, I was 6 years old. 1989. And killing more poles than Hiler, later to pretend that they actually liberated Poland, were in fact they kept Poland hostage since 50's to the late 80's, the whole lives of my parents, and my own, early childhood.
Sergei Aksyonov - the new leader of the Crimea or "Goblin" from the murky past?
PS II:
And don't get me wrong, russia from only their own perspective, they do have a case...
their propaganda does work very well, ... only its a bit irrelevant in most cases, to what they are actually doing, and how. I essence this only goves more time to russia do whatever they want, for example invade more Ukraine, untill the official election in december, because russia doesn't accept the may date that was set by the Ukrainian Yanukovich-opposition 21 feb.agreement, with EU ministers as witnesses.
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again:
1.Russian army in Crimea - illegal by international and Ukrainian law. 1 March
2.the prepreation for self determining referendum, and the question to join russia!!? makin up the russian crimean guard - all illegal by Ukrainian law. (with Yanukovich, or without, it was illegal, by the old or new constitution it was illegal) instilling a illegal crimean (russian) leader, in the crimena parliment by force (sergier akjskonov), the video with the russian military at night.
3.and only then the referedum itself, "legal" only in the country that is gaining territory by stealing it, literaly... the UN reaction is the least of Ukrainian worries. Read abour the stance of the other 13 countries that didn't vote in the UN they are clear, and I know, 1-13, 1-20, whatever the number its still ONE RUSSIA, INVADING a Neighbouring COUNTRY, in the NAME OF ADDING IT TO RUSSIA.
How hard is it to grasp?, I am very interested in your anwser to the main points of russian not accepting the opposition government which represenst over half of Ukrainias, and on the other hand they(russia) had no problem installing Sergei Aksjonov who got 4% of the Crimean parliment votes, as the crimean authority to organise the self determinig referendum.
As for the Argentina stance its clear from that statement that its a grudge to UK, for the falkland islands, and has nothing to do with the crimean referendum, which is the case here, not kosovo, not iraq, not falklands.
and now spot the differnce between the stance of a country, and the UN Security Council vote to condemn Crimean referendum
PS: okay, maybe I am emotional about this crap, but you would be too if it was your great-grand parents, or grand parents, who were killed by russian troops, and your surviving family lost their livelihoods because of it. And now Putin decides to re-start the cold war, and change borders in favor of the "russian empire", which 75 years ago killed tens of millions of people, more than Hitler, and now that they are "anschluss"-ing a part of Ukraine, and they wear the same colours of their so called "victory" in wwII "the patriotic" war, after they changes sides, earlier stabbing Poland in the back when hitler invaded it, and occupying it until, I was 6 years old. 1989. And killing more poles than Hiler, later to pretend that they actually liberated Poland, were in fact they kept Poland hostage since 50's to the late 80's, the whole lives of my parents, and my own, early childhood.
Sergei Aksyonov - the new leader of the Crimea or "Goblin" from the murky past?
PS II:
And don't get me wrong, russia from only their own perspective, they do have a case...
their propaganda does work very well, ... only its a bit irrelevant in most cases, to what they are actually doing, and how. I essence this only goves more time to russia do whatever they want, for example invade more Ukraine, untill the official election in december, because russia doesn't accept the may date that was set by the Ukrainian Yanukovich-opposition 21 feb.agreement, with EU ministers as witnesses.
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Polish ministry of foreign affairs received a letter from Russian politicians:
they have proposed Poland [also Hungary and Romania] a...division of Ukraine's territory between these nations.
anybody is still thinking that Russia only wanted to protect Crimea?
they have proposed Poland [also Hungary and Romania] a...division of Ukraine's territory between these nations.
anybody is still thinking that Russia only wanted to protect Crimea?
Source?
Edit: Maybe you could get Lwów back :p
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Edit: Maybe you could get Lwów back :p
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Well that's the proposition I think, we get the North-Western part...
I found it in Polish, confirmed by Polish Minister of Foreign Affaird, who called this proposition 'ridiculous'...
I found it in Polish, confirmed by Polish Minister of Foreign Affaird, who called this proposition 'ridiculous'...
it would be nice to have new neighbors - Hungary, Romania
but on the other hand we would also have another neighbor, Russia. :p
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but on the other hand we would also have another neighbor, Russia. :p
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Euh, Russia IS already your neighbor, and you wouldn't get any new border with them according to that map.
I think Orbán might like this :D
I think Orbán might like this :D
do you really think that they would stop dividing Ukraine at this point? :P
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I wonder if some Russian would ever think this could work: "You know what, we give Galicia to the Poles, Bukovina to the Romanians and Ruthenia to the Hungarians, and the rest we take for ourselves. Great idea!"