Subpage under development, new version coming soon!
Topic closed!!!
Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
So if Russia would take Ukraine by force, everything would be ok?
Of course not. I'm not going to defend something I did not say.
I hope you can see the difference in ethnic composition (and so probably, political composition) between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.
Of course not. I'm not going to defend something I did not say.
I hope you can see the difference in ethnic composition (and so probably, political composition) between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.
Of course not. I'm not going to defend something I did not say.
But it's an analogy to what you said.
'It's ok/understandable, because it happened in the past'. IMO it doesn't work that way.
Some time ago there were no boundries at all - does that mean that we can start to ignore them now?
I hope you can see the difference in ethnic composition (and so probably, political composition) between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.
I have no idea about the ethnic composition and political thoughts of Crimeans.
But it's an analogy to what you said.
'It's ok/understandable, because it happened in the past'. IMO it doesn't work that way.
Some time ago there were no boundries at all - does that mean that we can start to ignore them now?
I hope you can see the difference in ethnic composition (and so probably, political composition) between Crimea and the rest of Ukraine.
I have no idea about the ethnic composition and political thoughts of Crimeans.
'It's ok/understandable, because it happened in the past'. IMO it doesn't work that way.
I'm not saying that. I'm saying: let's look at the facts here.
Fact #1: Crimea is under total control by the Russian state, the Ukrainian state has no executive power anymore.
Fact #2: Whatever you do, Putin is never going to let Crimea go to Ukraine. Never. Whatever you do.
Fact #3: The Western world has no possible (and serious) actions it can take against Russia. None.
Fact #4: It is highly unlikely that a majority of the Crimeans would want to rejoin Ukraine.
When those facts are on the table, then yes, I think it would be the wise thing to do to just let Putin get away with it. There is no alternative. International politics is not about what is right and what is wrong. It's about leverage.
I have no idea about the ethnic composition and political thoughts of Crimeans.
A big majority is ethnically Russian, speaks Russian, considers themselves Russian.
(edited)
I'm not saying that. I'm saying: let's look at the facts here.
Fact #1: Crimea is under total control by the Russian state, the Ukrainian state has no executive power anymore.
Fact #2: Whatever you do, Putin is never going to let Crimea go to Ukraine. Never. Whatever you do.
Fact #3: The Western world has no possible (and serious) actions it can take against Russia. None.
Fact #4: It is highly unlikely that a majority of the Crimeans would want to rejoin Ukraine.
When those facts are on the table, then yes, I think it would be the wise thing to do to just let Putin get away with it. There is no alternative. International politics is not about what is right and what is wrong. It's about leverage.
I have no idea about the ethnic composition and political thoughts of Crimeans.
A big majority is ethnically Russian, speaks Russian, considers themselves Russian.
(edited)
When those facts are on the table, then yes, I think it would be the wise thing to do to just let Putin get away with it. There is no alternative. International politics is not about what is right and what is wrong. It's about leverage.
Awesome.
Now, since you like history - read about pre-2nd World War events concerning Germany and British diplomacy...:-) what you praise worked great back then, eh? :)
Awesome.
Now, since you like history - read about pre-2nd World War events concerning Germany and British diplomacy...:-) what you praise worked great back then, eh? :)
I knew you were going to make that analogy. It is correct to make it. But as long as you have no alternative, there is no point in discussing it.
all foreign information agencies expected a clear victory for the pro-Russian side
mostly it was based on information of year 2001 that 58% of citizen of Crimea consider them-self russian. but if you serch internet, you'll see that many citizen of Crimea helped ukrainian military blocked at their base, anti-russian protests etc. you think they'll vote Russia after that?
There would not have been a fair referendum if it were to be organized by the Ukrainian government either.
Actualy first of all is a question: do people want that referendum? 3,5 million from 5mln turrista was from ukraine but they will not go ther now, like you say somme had russian passports befor, that gived extra possibilities for business (for example price for cigarettes i higher in russia), ukrainian companies that are now closed (representatives, banks etc.), business registered in ukraine an suited for ukrainian low that is now questionable in russian crimea, many other economic points. be sure, they was good there, in their autonomy.
mostly it was based on information of year 2001 that 58% of citizen of Crimea consider them-self russian. but if you serch internet, you'll see that many citizen of Crimea helped ukrainian military blocked at their base, anti-russian protests etc. you think they'll vote Russia after that?
There would not have been a fair referendum if it were to be organized by the Ukrainian government either.
Actualy first of all is a question: do people want that referendum? 3,5 million from 5mln turrista was from ukraine but they will not go ther now, like you say somme had russian passports befor, that gived extra possibilities for business (for example price for cigarettes i higher in russia), ukrainian companies that are now closed (representatives, banks etc.), business registered in ukraine an suited for ukrainian low that is now questionable in russian crimea, many other economic points. be sure, they was good there, in their autonomy.
Well in my opinion letting Russia do whatever they want without raising a finger is not an option as well.
I'm not saying that the West should've started an armed conflict, of course not, but they should've made Russia feel threatened and try to punish them economically a lot more. Instead we had what we can abbreviate as a short lecture called 'Putin that was a bad thing to do, please don't do it again because we are not happy'.
I'm not saying that the West should've started an armed conflict, of course not, but they should've made Russia feel threatened and try to punish them economically a lot more. Instead we had what we can abbreviate as a short lecture called 'Putin that was a bad thing to do, please don't do it again because we are not happy'.
I'm not saying that the West should've started an armed conflict, of course not, but they should've made Russia feel threatened and try to punish them economically a lot more.
How? Seriously. You cannot threaten and economically punish Russia without shooting with a bazooka in your own foot.
How? Seriously. You cannot threaten and economically punish Russia without shooting with a bazooka in your own foot.
If there's a war [even an economic one ;)] then there must be casualties.
If it would hurt the finances of West...well, it's a shame, but that was a risk/loss worth taking to make a REAL political stance.
Instead West was this:
If it would hurt the finances of West...well, it's a shame, but that was a risk/loss worth taking to make a REAL political stance.
Instead West was this:
I have no idea about the ethnic composition and political thoughts of Crimeans.
something about ethnic Crimea, why there were so many "russians" and why Crimean-tatars will not rejoin Russia.
(edited)
something about ethnic Crimea, why there were so many "russians" and why Crimean-tatars will not rejoin Russia.
(edited)
A big majority is ethnically Russian, speaks Russian, considers themselves Russian.
wiki if read Demographics you'll see that number of Russian lowers and last official date is 2001 with 58% russian (67% in 1989), 24% (holds on 25-26%) urainian and 12% tatar (rised from 1,9 in 1989). population of tatar for 2014 was about 30% already.
wiki if read Demographics you'll see that number of Russian lowers and last official date is 2001 with 58% russian (67% in 1989), 24% (holds on 25-26%) urainian and 12% tatar (rised from 1,9 in 1989). population of tatar for 2014 was about 30% already.
If you think that was ever a real option (economic war), that's cute. Unrealistic, idealistic, but so incredibly naive.
Awesome.
I think a number of leaders will think it is indeed awesome, starting with Putin himself and his russianization of neighboring countries.
As an outside country make a difficult situation in another (neighboring) country as bad as possible so 2 or more groups will hate eachother for sure, invade a part of the country as the 'great protector and liberator' of that group (preferable land with pricy resources), immediately start a propaganda referendum with only 2 options 'independence' or 'join your great protector and liberator', ofcourse not only with all necessary propaganda but also some fraud and intimidation to make sure to get an overwelming 90% or more of all votes, and get away with stealing that land and all the resourses.
Great concept, completely normal to accept that and ofcourse nothing can be done about it anymore because the groups can't live together anymore thanks to the hate campain of the 'great protector and liberator' .....
I'm afraid a number of countries will see new possibilities if this way of interfering in other countries isn't stopped, punished and reversed.
And indeed, to let Russia get away with this russianization is most probably a really big mistake many will regret when it's really to late to stop it!
(edited)
I think a number of leaders will think it is indeed awesome, starting with Putin himself and his russianization of neighboring countries.
As an outside country make a difficult situation in another (neighboring) country as bad as possible so 2 or more groups will hate eachother for sure, invade a part of the country as the 'great protector and liberator' of that group (preferable land with pricy resources), immediately start a propaganda referendum with only 2 options 'independence' or 'join your great protector and liberator', ofcourse not only with all necessary propaganda but also some fraud and intimidation to make sure to get an overwelming 90% or more of all votes, and get away with stealing that land and all the resourses.
Great concept, completely normal to accept that and ofcourse nothing can be done about it anymore because the groups can't live together anymore thanks to the hate campain of the 'great protector and liberator' .....
I'm afraid a number of countries will see new possibilities if this way of interfering in other countries isn't stopped, punished and reversed.
And indeed, to let Russia get away with this russianization is most probably a really big mistake many will regret when it's really to late to stop it!
(edited)
Boy, you can't even have read the facts I based my opinion on. And yet you feel the urge to reply to someone who replied to my facts. You're unique. Luckily.
Ah ok, I get it now....
It's all about the money!!! :)
So I've been a fool thinking this was about the will of the people... :)
:-] Your naivety is beyond belief...
it is about the will of the people... but you need to take a minimally broader picture.
People in Ukrainie like to have hot water in their taps, and like to eat hot meals... choping off a big chunk of the industrial ukraine, and rasing gas prices by 70% (Putin and Putin) to a country that's near bankruptcy because of russian actions, will definatly make life harder for the all people in east and the west of Ukranie... :-] on the other hand it will make russians in russian fell that they don;t have it "as bad" - great.. :-] ... blocking trade (goods like food), threatening with the military on the borders.. definatly doesn't make life easier, for any and all the people in those regions...
ehh...
In terms you might understand, its a bit like chopping off Turin, and Milan (Industrial cities) by a Swiss of French army, and blocking all trade with Brescia (if I am not mistaken where you are from) having military exercises in Bergamo and Piacenza - threatening a invasion even further, declaring that the italians there acctually prefer (by 97%) to be in swiss-italian or franco-italian cantons called: savoie-piedomente part of the centralized Paris government, not part of Italy or italian lombardia anymore... bye bye, ...and leaving you... to be happy about it. :-) with a 70% rise on your gas bill, and no imports or exports from the main partner and a major cental 'power' in your region.
And a little bit for you on how "russian empire" works, they are the aggressor, and they get territory in which life for the local people gets harder and harder, at the cost of government corrupcy and (near of full) dictatorships, like Yanukovic in Ukraine recetly, with his oligarchs.
Poland borders. russian annexation of Polish crown (also Lithuanian) territory.
1772 (anexation/partition) - 1919(wwI) - 1944(wwII) ...
1920's poster... russian propaganda... look how happy te people are.. (the lady with the flowers) :-) How gullible do you have to be?
Unfortunately it is not as simple as, changing flags in pes, today I'll be russia to see if I lose, and tommorow I'll be Ukrainie to see if I lose. :-] These kind of actions have huge repercussions, on all the surrounding regions, and even countries... and on the lives of the people.
(edited)
It's all about the money!!! :)
So I've been a fool thinking this was about the will of the people... :)
:-] Your naivety is beyond belief...
it is about the will of the people... but you need to take a minimally broader picture.
People in Ukrainie like to have hot water in their taps, and like to eat hot meals... choping off a big chunk of the industrial ukraine, and rasing gas prices by 70% (Putin and Putin) to a country that's near bankruptcy because of russian actions, will definatly make life harder for the all people in east and the west of Ukranie... :-] on the other hand it will make russians in russian fell that they don;t have it "as bad" - great.. :-] ... blocking trade (goods like food), threatening with the military on the borders.. definatly doesn't make life easier, for any and all the people in those regions...
ehh...
In terms you might understand, its a bit like chopping off Turin, and Milan (Industrial cities) by a Swiss of French army, and blocking all trade with Brescia (if I am not mistaken where you are from) having military exercises in Bergamo and Piacenza - threatening a invasion even further, declaring that the italians there acctually prefer (by 97%) to be in swiss-italian or franco-italian cantons called: savoie-piedomente part of the centralized Paris government, not part of Italy or italian lombardia anymore... bye bye, ...and leaving you... to be happy about it. :-) with a 70% rise on your gas bill, and no imports or exports from the main partner and a major cental 'power' in your region.
And a little bit for you on how "russian empire" works, they are the aggressor, and they get territory in which life for the local people gets harder and harder, at the cost of government corrupcy and (near of full) dictatorships, like Yanukovic in Ukraine recetly, with his oligarchs.
Poland borders. russian annexation of Polish crown (also Lithuanian) territory.
1772 (anexation/partition) - 1919(wwI) - 1944(wwII) ...
1920's poster... russian propaganda... look how happy te people are.. (the lady with the flowers) :-) How gullible do you have to be?
Unfortunately it is not as simple as, changing flags in pes, today I'll be russia to see if I lose, and tommorow I'll be Ukrainie to see if I lose. :-] These kind of actions have huge repercussions, on all the surrounding regions, and even countries... and on the lives of the people.
(edited)
When those facts are on the table, then yes, I think it would be the wise thing to do to just let Putin get away with it. There is no alternative. International politics is not about what is right and what is wrong. It's about leverage.
Munich Agreement
Munich, the 29th of September 1938:
5. Germany establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with a puppet government, on March 16, 1939.
6. Meanwhile during the German invasion of Czech territories, a pro-Hitler Catholic-fascist government splits off the remaining territories of Czechoslovakia and declares the Slovak Republic, an Axis client state.
...same difference, if you ask me.
(edited)
Munich Agreement
Munich, the 29th of September 1938:
5. Germany establishing the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia with a puppet government, on March 16, 1939.
6. Meanwhile during the German invasion of Czech territories, a pro-Hitler Catholic-fascist government splits off the remaining territories of Czechoslovakia and declares the Slovak Republic, an Axis client state.
...same difference, if you ask me.
(edited)