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Subject: »NEWS AROUND THE WORLD
When an "horde" composed by nazis/hooligans storm and kills over 100 un-armed people, burning only their heads with some plastic bags, including some kids and a pregnant woman.......
This is a pogrom.
This is a pogrom.
not really
a pogrom is a one sided attack on a minority by the majority
a pogrom is a one sided attack on a minority by the majority
I think most of the news here is not so biased as all the news from russia. In our media they try to cover the story withouth directly blaming some side. Just facts. And over here you read story s from both side(ukraine and pro russian separist).
They don t judge they just trying to tell what happend. Unlike RT where every citizin of ukraine is either terrorist or nazi lol.
They don t judge they just trying to tell what happend. Unlike RT where every citizin of ukraine is either terrorist or nazi lol.
At that time I posted
1) a video of Tymoshenko talking with local politics in Odessa without comment: just a story in english.
2) a leaked phone call of Tymoshenko (I bring the video from RT only becouse there are sub in english, but the phone call was real)
3) ok, this video was from a russian tv, but since I'm not preteding people here speaks russian, what I realy posted was below the video: an article with a comment from a (linked) german media (bild).
Is this enough to say I'm "keep posting russian biased media"???
(edited)
1) a video of Tymoshenko talking with local politics in Odessa without comment: just a story in english.
2) a leaked phone call of Tymoshenko (I bring the video from RT only becouse there are sub in english, but the phone call was real)
3) ok, this video was from a russian tv, but since I'm not preteding people here speaks russian, what I realy posted was below the video: an article with a comment from a (linked) german media (bild).
Is this enough to say I'm "keep posting russian biased media"???
(edited)
Both sides were fighting in Odessa.
Cleary you don't see the picture/video of the massacre.
I know it hard and very graphic, but whatever could have been happend before, the brutality and the extreme violence from those barbarians I'll never forget...
We can also find some videos of people jumping from the windows in order to excape the fire, and than brutally killed with baseball bat or something by the nazis. Meanwhile girls where preparing molotov coktails to keep burn "the devils" and the crowd was chanting "Burn the russian!"
Cleary you don't see the picture/video of the massacre.
I know it hard and very graphic, but whatever could have been happend before, the brutality and the extreme violence from those barbarians I'll never forget...
We can also find some videos of people jumping from the windows in order to excape the fire, and than brutally killed with baseball bat or something by the nazis. Meanwhile girls where preparing molotov coktails to keep burn "the devils" and the crowd was chanting "Burn the russian!"
You have already linked that twice here and that content is not for Sokker, so don't do it again!
That was a very sad thing, but it was inavitable, that something like that will happen somewhere. Unarmed pro-Russian civilians were playing human shield ever since the conflict started in Crimea. They helped capturing Ukrainian bases, they were at the gates, they didn't let people to go in and out. Behind them the "little green men" were watching.
In Eastern Ukraine unarmed civilians stopped the Ukrainian APCs. But in the backround you could see armed men in uniforms accepting the Ukrainian surrender, and they commanded the civilians to let the APC pass, when they were finished.
It was just a matter of time when someone gone mental, and started to massacre the "peaceful civilians". If you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned. And when there's a lot of people involved in such a situation, it always happens with the ones, who didn't deserve it.
That was a very sad thing, but it was inavitable, that something like that will happen somewhere. Unarmed pro-Russian civilians were playing human shield ever since the conflict started in Crimea. They helped capturing Ukrainian bases, they were at the gates, they didn't let people to go in and out. Behind them the "little green men" were watching.
In Eastern Ukraine unarmed civilians stopped the Ukrainian APCs. But in the backround you could see armed men in uniforms accepting the Ukrainian surrender, and they commanded the civilians to let the APC pass, when they were finished.
It was just a matter of time when someone gone mental, and started to massacre the "peaceful civilians". If you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned. And when there's a lot of people involved in such a situation, it always happens with the ones, who didn't deserve it.
Still I'm almost afraid to post a link from a non-Russian source, because I immediately get charged with spreading "ill Western propaganda". :D
I don't understand the it was inevitable that something like that would happen, it was a matter of time, etc argument. It's like saying "it was inevitable that some Russian occupation would happen".
"Wrong" or "acceptable" belong to a different discussion than "predictable" or "surprising". You could say Putin's actions were wrong and predictable. I'd even say they were less wrong and more predictable that what happen in Odessa...
But whether you agree with me or not on that, it is still the case that things are not correct/incorrect or good/bad just because they can be predicted Hari Seldon style.
If you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned.
Yes. For example, if you kick Putin's friend from government through violent riot, you'll eventually get invaded. And if you walk with your shiny Rolex in the worst neighborhood of Buenos Aires you'll eventually get robbed. Should we just congratulate Putin, robbers, and pyromaniacs?
(edited)
"Wrong" or "acceptable" belong to a different discussion than "predictable" or "surprising". You could say Putin's actions were wrong and predictable. I'd even say they were less wrong and more predictable that what happen in Odessa...
But whether you agree with me or not on that, it is still the case that things are not correct/incorrect or good/bad just because they can be predicted Hari Seldon style.
If you play with fire, you'll eventually get burned.
Yes. For example, if you kick Putin's friend from government through violent riot, you'll eventually get invaded. And if you walk with your shiny Rolex in the worst neighborhood of Buenos Aires you'll eventually get robbed. Should we just congratulate Putin, robbers, and pyromaniacs?
(edited)
OMG, we just were missing the human-shield rhetoric...
And if you stay behind a barricade in a semi-civil war you might get attacked, yes. No, it's not a good thing, it's sad, as I just wrote. So I don't understand what's your problem.
Don't you think there's a risk at standing behind the barricades in the middle of a semi-civil war? There were clashes already at the streets of Odessa, and Ukrainians got the upper hand this time. According to RT News 39 people died around the Trade Union House (which is less then 100 btw), and 7 died (already?) in other parts of Odessa in the clashes. Guns and Molotovs were used by both sides. So the activists there knew it's dangerous what they're doing, and they took the risk. What does it means?
A) It's not exactly like "collateral damage", when an airforce bombards a city killing civilians, who were just living their lives (e.g. going to a market, going to a wedding, staying home).
B) It's absolutely not a pogrom, in which the majority side abducts and exterminates non-resistant minority people just because of the different nationality. Diamanti stated that it was a pogrom, I was answering to that.
C) But it's not right that those people got killed. Instead militant activists should have been arrested on both sides, before people die. And now after all that, the murderers should be caught, but that won't happen either. And no, it's not a good thing. I never wrote that, so please don't claim that I find murder acceptable!
(edited)
Don't you think there's a risk at standing behind the barricades in the middle of a semi-civil war? There were clashes already at the streets of Odessa, and Ukrainians got the upper hand this time. According to RT News 39 people died around the Trade Union House (which is less then 100 btw), and 7 died (already?) in other parts of Odessa in the clashes. Guns and Molotovs were used by both sides. So the activists there knew it's dangerous what they're doing, and they took the risk. What does it means?
A) It's not exactly like "collateral damage", when an airforce bombards a city killing civilians, who were just living their lives (e.g. going to a market, going to a wedding, staying home).
B) It's absolutely not a pogrom, in which the majority side abducts and exterminates non-resistant minority people just because of the different nationality. Diamanti stated that it was a pogrom, I was answering to that.
C) But it's not right that those people got killed. Instead militant activists should have been arrested on both sides, before people die. And now after all that, the murderers should be caught, but that won't happen either. And no, it's not a good thing. I never wrote that, so please don't claim that I find murder acceptable!
(edited)
So what exactly is that?
or that?
They thought the soldiers won't dare to shoot them, because they're unarmed civilians, so they tried to stop the APC. And they were right! They stopped Ukrainian forces by their own civilian, human bodies. What is human-shield if not that? And if there are armed militants behind, who disarm the Ukrainian troops after they got stopped, then it's human-shield tactics.
or that?
They thought the soldiers won't dare to shoot them, because they're unarmed civilians, so they tried to stop the APC. And they were right! They stopped Ukrainian forces by their own civilian, human bodies. What is human-shield if not that? And if there are armed militants behind, who disarm the Ukrainian troops after they got stopped, then it's human-shield tactics.
we welcome the discussions
A very dumb decision to keep topics like this open and let them misuse this game forum. But hee, I'm not surprised at all that is the decision; not only the DEVs are responsible for the drop of total managers :/
And discussions? Ongoing biased monologues and complete nonsense is not what I call discussions.
The scary part of this all is that end of May they have the same right as other Europeans have with the European Parliament election :S
(edited)
A very dumb decision to keep topics like this open and let them misuse this game forum. But hee, I'm not surprised at all that is the decision; not only the DEVs are responsible for the drop of total managers :/
And discussions? Ongoing biased monologues and complete nonsense is not what I call discussions.
The scary part of this all is that end of May they have the same right as other Europeans have with the European Parliament election :S
(edited)
Point B) taken, I don't make his claim mine nor have anything to add to the point.
Point C), I also don't claim you are celebrating murder or anything. I am just emphasizing that how likely it was to happen to a neutral observer is not relevant to judge it (nor to call it pogrom or not, which again I'm not doing.
I do claim, however, that Ukraine had a state and a government. A part of the population got quite mad at the government (a part that was not uniformly distributed geographically, and that ranged from EU enthusiasts to neo-nazis - far from homogenoeus, certainly). The protests that ensued one of its decisions (legitimate decision from a legal point of view) got quite tense and edgy. We've seen this before (e.g., protests against Erdogan in Turkey). Not an easy situation for any of the parties.
And I do claim, as I did from the beginning, that Maidan's ousting of Yanukovich by pure violence escalation was a crucial and terrible event. Since then, Ukraine doesn't have a government, and it barely has a state (yes, some dudes in Kiev call themselves the government, but you can see that their acceptance throughout the country is pretty much on a voluntary basis). Forcing Yanukovich to compromise his views with those of Maidan's protesters till new elections took place was a great victory. Ousting him the day after was almost catastrophic, but it was celebrated as an even bigger victory (and you can look for examples in this thread). That's the day things ceased to be about agreements and elections in Ukraine. Instead, it becomes about who can make the bigger mess until getting what they want.
And then the "predictable reactions" kicked in. Of course nazis were a minority in the protests. But they were used as a clash force, granting them front page (I'd also say they got rewarded too much in terms of participation in the new government). And on top of that, they got to pass very stupid laws in the first post-Yanukovich days. This would naturally cause unrest in the East, but add to it how easy it was to build propaganda on that from the Russian side. The most pro-Russian region immediately got its way the Euro-Maidan way, the difference being that instead of a bunch of neo-nazis they had teh whole Russian army to do it. And since then the same logic has prevailed: there's no government (dare I say state?) anymore, if you want something, take it, and better be strong enough for it. Kiev or Crimea may have been easy, but in less clear-cut regions this could quickly turn into a mess - and it did.
I do claim, then, that Ukraine collapsed as a state the moment political bargaining and compromise was replaced by violent ousting and "winner-takes-it-all" logic as a means of conflict resolution -namely, at Euro-Maidan's apparent victory.
Point C), I also don't claim you are celebrating murder or anything. I am just emphasizing that how likely it was to happen to a neutral observer is not relevant to judge it (nor to call it pogrom or not, which again I'm not doing.
I do claim, however, that Ukraine had a state and a government. A part of the population got quite mad at the government (a part that was not uniformly distributed geographically, and that ranged from EU enthusiasts to neo-nazis - far from homogenoeus, certainly). The protests that ensued one of its decisions (legitimate decision from a legal point of view) got quite tense and edgy. We've seen this before (e.g., protests against Erdogan in Turkey). Not an easy situation for any of the parties.
And I do claim, as I did from the beginning, that Maidan's ousting of Yanukovich by pure violence escalation was a crucial and terrible event. Since then, Ukraine doesn't have a government, and it barely has a state (yes, some dudes in Kiev call themselves the government, but you can see that their acceptance throughout the country is pretty much on a voluntary basis). Forcing Yanukovich to compromise his views with those of Maidan's protesters till new elections took place was a great victory. Ousting him the day after was almost catastrophic, but it was celebrated as an even bigger victory (and you can look for examples in this thread). That's the day things ceased to be about agreements and elections in Ukraine. Instead, it becomes about who can make the bigger mess until getting what they want.
And then the "predictable reactions" kicked in. Of course nazis were a minority in the protests. But they were used as a clash force, granting them front page (I'd also say they got rewarded too much in terms of participation in the new government). And on top of that, they got to pass very stupid laws in the first post-Yanukovich days. This would naturally cause unrest in the East, but add to it how easy it was to build propaganda on that from the Russian side. The most pro-Russian region immediately got its way the Euro-Maidan way, the difference being that instead of a bunch of neo-nazis they had teh whole Russian army to do it. And since then the same logic has prevailed: there's no government (dare I say state?) anymore, if you want something, take it, and better be strong enough for it. Kiev or Crimea may have been easy, but in less clear-cut regions this could quickly turn into a mess - and it did.
I do claim, then, that Ukraine collapsed as a state the moment political bargaining and compromise was replaced by violent ousting and "winner-takes-it-all" logic as a means of conflict resolution -namely, at Euro-Maidan's apparent victory.
France will supply warship to Russia, contract for 1,2 bilions €.
As we can see, it is all just propaganda... that bad news about russia and so.... :-).
As we can see, it is all just propaganda... that bad news about russia and so.... :-).