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Subject: News Around The World
Our last governments made a mess with support of high ranking Europeans
The Greek politicians ate the money from the loans and Europeans made billions from the high interests of the loans or services they provided like flawed submarines-helicopters, Siemens etc
if one submarine cost 100mil euros , German sold to our politics 300mil euro and the profit half-half
The Greek politicians ate the money from the loans and Europeans made billions from the high interests of the loans or services they provided like flawed submarines-helicopters, Siemens etc
if one submarine cost 100mil euros , German sold to our politics 300mil euro and the profit half-half
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Greece&country2=Netherlands&city1=Athens&city2=Amsterdam
3865/2573 = 1,5 amsterdam
2300/699= 3,2 athens
you can put your own city
by far better to live in amsterdam
3865/2573 = 1,5 amsterdam
2300/699= 3,2 athens
you can put your own city
by far better to live in amsterdam
Yeh, blame Europe and anyone else for your government's terrible deals, in the past AND present .... But hee, that's what you Greeks on this forum are doing for quite some time now, so nothing surprising about this post.
And I wonder, when did you became so interested in politics? The moment you had a great life while your country was living an unrealistic upper class lifestyle with borrowed money? I assume you didn't or else it would been pretty dumb to vote for those incompetent politicians of that time, knowing that the bill will come one day. Or you started to care the moment the bill came for this unrealistic upper class lifestyle and you like the bill and things taken away from you?
Of course interest goes up when risks of return is also going up. Why are you so surprised about that? Blame your government, they borrowed money over and over again for higher and higher interests. The Greeks should have paid more attention when voting for these incompetent representatives. And not after the harm was done, but when it was still going on.
But it doesn't matter what others post, the answers are like listening to a scratched LP when the needle is stuck in a grove :/
And I wonder, when did you became so interested in politics? The moment you had a great life while your country was living an unrealistic upper class lifestyle with borrowed money? I assume you didn't or else it would been pretty dumb to vote for those incompetent politicians of that time, knowing that the bill will come one day. Or you started to care the moment the bill came for this unrealistic upper class lifestyle and you like the bill and things taken away from you?
Of course interest goes up when risks of return is also going up. Why are you so surprised about that? Blame your government, they borrowed money over and over again for higher and higher interests. The Greeks should have paid more attention when voting for these incompetent representatives. And not after the harm was done, but when it was still going on.
But it doesn't matter what others post, the answers are like listening to a scratched LP when the needle is stuck in a grove :/
"The Greeks should have paid more attention when voting for these incompetent representatives."
- if it only were so simple... :-)
(edited)
- if it only were so simple... :-)
(edited)
Who are you to make some hasty conclusions about things you probably don't even know 20 % of it. Offcourse Greece has debt, offcourse there are situations who aren't okay, but you can find that kind of things in EVERY country... Here in Belgium
* some people are 53 and are already 2 years retired ...
* my neighbours haven't worked at all in their life because they are "sick". In the same time he is repairing cars and is paid without paying taxes. So he earns a lot above the money he receives from the state. On top his wife has never worked, but gets an income because her husband worked a couple of years in the beginning of his youth.
* In Belgium you get 600 € from the state if you have 3 children, 850 if you gave 4, 1100 for 5, ... above big minusses in taxes...
* I can continue until eternity and I'm sure you can too for your country...
If Belgium is in problems I'm sure we will be seen too as lazy, stupid and egocentric...
Offcourse there are some problems in Greece and some problems are not dealt in a good way, but a lot of the debts are there also because Europe FORCED Greece to take immense loans to pay for useless army material for example.
I'm sick of you blaming "normal" Greek people for this, like they can do something about it.
* some people are 53 and are already 2 years retired ...
* my neighbours haven't worked at all in their life because they are "sick". In the same time he is repairing cars and is paid without paying taxes. So he earns a lot above the money he receives from the state. On top his wife has never worked, but gets an income because her husband worked a couple of years in the beginning of his youth.
* In Belgium you get 600 € from the state if you have 3 children, 850 if you gave 4, 1100 for 5, ... above big minusses in taxes...
* I can continue until eternity and I'm sure you can too for your country...
If Belgium is in problems I'm sure we will be seen too as lazy, stupid and egocentric...
Offcourse there are some problems in Greece and some problems are not dealt in a good way, but a lot of the debts are there also because Europe FORCED Greece to take immense loans to pay for useless army material for example.
I'm sick of you blaming "normal" Greek people for this, like they can do something about it.
So would you suggest to eliminate all these possibilities you're talking about in Belgium? To a lot of people, these are considered to be the basis of our socialistic system. I would be more than happy to see a government with the balls to at least do something about items 1 and 2, and make sure that for item 3 every child is worth an equal amount of money and gives no tax reduction.
No idea what the situation in Greece is. Don't know the situation good enough. But I can imagine such things of "stupidity" exist in every country.
No idea what the situation in Greece is. Don't know the situation good enough. But I can imagine such things of "stupidity" exist in every country.
All governments make mistakes and (almost) all countries have problems, but not all make such a complete mess of the situation and needs so much money to solve the problems as Greece. In the Netherlands a lot of unpopular measures are taken to prevent financial problems and to make sure agreements made in Brussels are fulfilled. This won't make these politicians popular and loved people, but in the end they do what is needed to make sure this country (their country and mine) won't go down that same path.
A number of countries also have serious problems and have to deal with it and they do, but Greece is the first euro country not to pay before the deadline. And I'm pretty sure because of the way this hostile government is dealing with Europe, they are in more troubles now. It is more easy to work with governments that are really willing to change. It is clear Greece won't be able to repay the complete debt, but it is more easy to accept this from a friend as from some obstructive ego.
I'm sick of you blaming "normal" Greek people for this, like they can do something about it.
I blame those Greeks who come to this topic to blame everyone else without looking in the mirror first. And of course the normal people can do something about the course of a country, that's called voting. If you vote for people who are incapable of running a country, you know what will happen. And incapable people won't win an election because 1 or 2 people voted for them ...
A number of countries also have serious problems and have to deal with it and they do, but Greece is the first euro country not to pay before the deadline. And I'm pretty sure because of the way this hostile government is dealing with Europe, they are in more troubles now. It is more easy to work with governments that are really willing to change. It is clear Greece won't be able to repay the complete debt, but it is more easy to accept this from a friend as from some obstructive ego.
I'm sick of you blaming "normal" Greek people for this, like they can do something about it.
I blame those Greeks who come to this topic to blame everyone else without looking in the mirror first. And of course the normal people can do something about the course of a country, that's called voting. If you vote for people who are incapable of running a country, you know what will happen. And incapable people won't win an election because 1 or 2 people voted for them ...
- if it only were so simple... :-)
Well, in a way it is. I think I know which political parties will bring my country into problems when voting for their politicians. Unfortunately too many don't seem to understand this and vote for these people anyway. But luckily we have politicians who don't want to work with those political parties as they are too extreme.
But if such a political party do come to power someday and bring my country down, I won't be the one blaming everyone on this forum. I would be ashamed for what is happening instead of blaming the whole world.
Well, in a way it is. I think I know which political parties will bring my country into problems when voting for their politicians. Unfortunately too many don't seem to understand this and vote for these people anyway. But luckily we have politicians who don't want to work with those political parties as they are too extreme.
But if such a political party do come to power someday and bring my country down, I won't be the one blaming everyone on this forum. I would be ashamed for what is happening instead of blaming the whole world.
agreements made in Brussels are fulfilled
This is the part that i hate about EU. Romania took a 20bilion loan from the IMF in 2009, i honestly have no clue why we needed that loan and where did the money go, but we took it. So we piss and s*it on Brussels command, but noone asked us from the EU back than "Hey, why the hell do you need that money guys?" or even better "Fellows, if you do need the money, lemme help you, we're on the same boat, aren't we? You dont need IMF!".
No, we took the loan and a few years later, EU helped us with some great guidance and sweet advices: Guys, you gotta sell your banks, your national petrol company, your railway companies, all the energy companies, and so on...Cause your in deep s*it with that loan, you gotta reduce the deficit.
Last month the government cut down the VAT for food from 24 to 9%. The European Commission was against it. UK has 0 (zero!) VAT for food, Germany 7%, 5.5% in France, 10% in Italy, we were doing just fine with 24%, sure. Now the government has voted to reduce the general VAT from january 2016 at 19% (besides, that was the normal level of VAT, but EU asked us to raise it to 24% because of deficit). Now guess who's against it again? And we're talking about a country where most of the populations gets a minimal wage of 180-200euros a month.
So, back to the topic, though i hate this modern day Robin Hood wannabe Tsipras and his stupid-proud tieless finance minister, i refuse to believe that common greeks ate 350billions, i honestly dont have any idea wtf has happened there, but im sure that this problem is everyones problem in Europe. Or else, forget about this EU sharade, cause its good for ones and bad for others.
This is the part that i hate about EU. Romania took a 20bilion loan from the IMF in 2009, i honestly have no clue why we needed that loan and where did the money go, but we took it. So we piss and s*it on Brussels command, but noone asked us from the EU back than "Hey, why the hell do you need that money guys?" or even better "Fellows, if you do need the money, lemme help you, we're on the same boat, aren't we? You dont need IMF!".
No, we took the loan and a few years later, EU helped us with some great guidance and sweet advices: Guys, you gotta sell your banks, your national petrol company, your railway companies, all the energy companies, and so on...Cause your in deep s*it with that loan, you gotta reduce the deficit.
Last month the government cut down the VAT for food from 24 to 9%. The European Commission was against it. UK has 0 (zero!) VAT for food, Germany 7%, 5.5% in France, 10% in Italy, we were doing just fine with 24%, sure. Now the government has voted to reduce the general VAT from january 2016 at 19% (besides, that was the normal level of VAT, but EU asked us to raise it to 24% because of deficit). Now guess who's against it again? And we're talking about a country where most of the populations gets a minimal wage of 180-200euros a month.
So, back to the topic, though i hate this modern day Robin Hood wannabe Tsipras and his stupid-proud tieless finance minister, i refuse to believe that common greeks ate 350billions, i honestly dont have any idea wtf has happened there, but im sure that this problem is everyones problem in Europe. Or else, forget about this EU sharade, cause its good for ones and bad for others.
[i]But if such a political party do come to power someday and bring my country down, I won't be the one blaming everyone on this forum. I would be ashamed for what is happening instead of blaming the whole world.[/i]
Totally agree with this phrase. Germany should pay world war compensations, EU should give back interest rate, and so on, every greek is asking for more and more fantezies, but as far as we can see from here, they just simply wont realize their politicians played a huge deal in this drama.
Totally agree with this phrase. Germany should pay world war compensations, EU should give back interest rate, and so on, every greek is asking for more and more fantezies, but as far as we can see from here, they just simply wont realize their politicians played a huge deal in this drama.
well - no, because it all depends on many things... the voting system, the turnout (which if low, is often out of hopelessness, not choice) the circumstances the country is/was in (...like Ukraine...), and the choices you have from the running parties (...often a choice between, bad or worse) especially in poorer countries... corruption is an issue too... eastern parts of Europe have it worse, for example Ukraine, if you ask me: seems to be a lost cause... economically, unfortunately - whatever you do... :-]
So, I just think it is a bit harsh blaming Greek population for their "poor political choices", just like it would be harsh blaming Ukrainian population for the economical mess Ukraine is in, even if let say some "ukrainian pro-russian rebels" started it all, for example even in Poland (seemingly "doing well" country) the current new president elect, two weeks before the second round of the election had 15-16% of the population's vote!!!, if you count the low turnout - which you should. I found this quite disturbing :-], that he won in two weeks after such low vote of confidence. Still, in a sense, the new leader who has the vote on confidence of less than a fifth of the population, is representing all Poland. :-] ...and has the decision making power, I don't know - but I imagine this might be as similar case with Syriza in power.
Politicians also seem to sell bullshit very often :-) as we all know, and it is hard to judge in advance for the common man to how full of crap they actually are :-), and how will they actually behave when in power. Rush referendums, are often out of desperation... in a different matter, but we have one in Poland too... :-] ...also, when the whole continent's "EU economy" is under external threat (Russia, China), political parties from both sides of the spectrum left and right -wing seem to become more radical... allover Europe.
I also find this quite often that, western Europeans from "richer" countries, seem to judge the poorer countries by their own, same standards, were... in essence, it rarely is the case. Poorer countries, and their politicians seem to be in a constant "lost" race, were the gap in widening. So their solutions are often short term, as they simply cannot afford to do what richer countries like Germany or England, do for long-term stability ... literally, and also how stable for example UK really is? it is not, it is just protected better by bigger economies, for their own survival.
I am just saying...
Status: It's complicated. ;-)
PS: all radical "left-wingers", are mental.. if you ask me. ;-p
11 things about the Greek crisis you need to know
(edited)
So, I just think it is a bit harsh blaming Greek population for their "poor political choices", just like it would be harsh blaming Ukrainian population for the economical mess Ukraine is in, even if let say some "ukrainian pro-russian rebels" started it all, for example even in Poland (seemingly "doing well" country) the current new president elect, two weeks before the second round of the election had 15-16% of the population's vote!!!, if you count the low turnout - which you should. I found this quite disturbing :-], that he won in two weeks after such low vote of confidence. Still, in a sense, the new leader who has the vote on confidence of less than a fifth of the population, is representing all Poland. :-] ...and has the decision making power, I don't know - but I imagine this might be as similar case with Syriza in power.
Politicians also seem to sell bullshit very often :-) as we all know, and it is hard to judge in advance for the common man to how full of crap they actually are :-), and how will they actually behave when in power. Rush referendums, are often out of desperation... in a different matter, but we have one in Poland too... :-] ...also, when the whole continent's "EU economy" is under external threat (Russia, China), political parties from both sides of the spectrum left and right -wing seem to become more radical... allover Europe.
I also find this quite often that, western Europeans from "richer" countries, seem to judge the poorer countries by their own, same standards, were... in essence, it rarely is the case. Poorer countries, and their politicians seem to be in a constant "lost" race, were the gap in widening. So their solutions are often short term, as they simply cannot afford to do what richer countries like Germany or England, do for long-term stability ... literally, and also how stable for example UK really is? it is not, it is just protected better by bigger economies, for their own survival.
I am just saying...
Status: It's complicated. ;-)
PS: all radical "left-wingers", are mental.. if you ask me. ;-p
11 things about the Greek crisis you need to know
(edited)
No idea what the situation in Greece is. Don't know the situation good enough. But I can imagine such things of "stupidity" exist in every country.
That's the only thing I want to say. I don't want to comment on the details in Belgium, it was just an example...
That's the only thing I want to say. I don't want to comment on the details in Belgium, it was just an example...
You explained well that it's not all simple and it isn't, but some things are; like Alexis Tsipras / Syriza winning the elections has shown that voters can and do decide the course of a democratic country. And those Greeks who voted for Alexis Tsipras did know what they voted for, he made his opinions and the course Greek would go very clear. A large enough group of Greek voters did agree, unfortunately for those who didn't (I don't know the democratic process in Greece, but the more 'weight' your vote has, the more important it is to make a well thought over decision, like your example 1/5 of the votes is enough to represent Poland). In the Netherlands, and I assume in the whole of Europe, it was very well known Alexis Tsipras is a big risk for Greece.
Yesterday I watched an older Dutch comedy show from just days before the Greek election. A group of comedians in that show were making fun of those who warn Europe for this 'scary man Alexis Tsipras' .... I think the makers will think twice next time they want to make fun of those who point out the obvious :/
And I absolutely agree countries aren't the same, all are different and money, corruption, etc indeed makes it all even more different. But problems like Greece has didn't happen over night, and making a financial mess of the situation is also not something that happens to all countries, many other countries that aren't rich don't have the Greek financial mess.
(edited)
Yesterday I watched an older Dutch comedy show from just days before the Greek election. A group of comedians in that show were making fun of those who warn Europe for this 'scary man Alexis Tsipras' .... I think the makers will think twice next time they want to make fun of those who point out the obvious :/
And I absolutely agree countries aren't the same, all are different and money, corruption, etc indeed makes it all even more different. But problems like Greece has didn't happen over night, and making a financial mess of the situation is also not something that happens to all countries, many other countries that aren't rich don't have the Greek financial mess.
(edited)
it's hard without working, free time make me insane
i am retired too
i am retired too
Unfortunately all true, far-left is all you need to know to be worried in advance... :-]
I honesty have a hard time comprehending how unbalanced eastern European politics are...
14 May 2012 Greece: Trying to understand Syriza
:-]
The population of Greece was calculated as 10,816,286 in the 2011 census.
Greek legislative election, 2015
Turnout 6,330,786 (63.9%)
Alexis Tsipras / Syriza
Popular vote 2,246,064
Percentage 36.3%
PS: now I am worried... about Poland, on the other end of the spectrum.. with the October elections results almost certain already... :-]
(edited)
I honesty have a hard time comprehending how unbalanced eastern European politics are...
14 May 2012 Greece: Trying to understand Syriza
:-]
The population of Greece was calculated as 10,816,286 in the 2011 census.
Greek legislative election, 2015
Turnout 6,330,786 (63.9%)
Alexis Tsipras / Syriza
Popular vote 2,246,064
Percentage 36.3%
PS: now I am worried... about Poland, on the other end of the spectrum.. with the October elections results almost certain already... :-]
(edited)