Subpage under development, new version coming soon!
Subject: Supporters Mood Dropping...
You think my fans should be at loosing hope level?
Is it me who's gone mad here?
And my team isn't "untouchable". Ive lost matches to various teams over the seasons. This current season is actually quite a good one so far.
PS Hundreds of things haven't gone my way in sokker, I don't make a big deal of them, only when its continually unfair. This is the first example of that situation.
(edited)
Is it me who's gone mad here?
And my team isn't "untouchable". Ive lost matches to various teams over the seasons. This current season is actually quite a good one so far.
PS Hundreds of things haven't gone my way in sokker, I don't make a big deal of them, only when its continually unfair. This is the first example of that situation.
(edited)
I like the comment that only older successful teams can see why this is such a bad system- me being an unsuccessful noob and all :)
Your argument is that you should only lose fan mood when you lose - you've lost one game per season for the last few seasons. So with your system you could only lose two levels a season if you include the cup which means your fan mood would be easily kept at the top level. Can you not see how unfair that is to teams who regularly lose below you and therefore never have top mood even though they could be confounding expectations. I'm not exempt from this affect btw- I'm three levels from the top even though I haven't lost a game and have won the cup. I think it's perfectly fair that expectations should be higher for me and luckily I'm a good manager so I haven't lost out too much despite these expectations ;)
Your argument is that you should only lose fan mood when you lose - you've lost one game per season for the last few seasons. So with your system you could only lose two levels a season if you include the cup which means your fan mood would be easily kept at the top level. Can you not see how unfair that is to teams who regularly lose below you and therefore never have top mood even though they could be confounding expectations. I'm not exempt from this affect btw- I'm three levels from the top even though I haven't lost a game and have won the cup. I think it's perfectly fair that expectations should be higher for me and luckily I'm a good manager so I haven't lost out too much despite these expectations ;)
no doubt about it: of course it should be easy to keep supporters on top level as long as a team plays in the highest league and is able to lose only two matches a season. any mood system, which is different from this is just poor:
a team shall rise and eventually become new champion because it is victourious on the pitch ( and the manager cares about the development of his squad and is able to make good deals etc.) - a club shall not rise because it is favoured by some strange mood system. a champion shall not go down because he is let down by strange behaviour of the fans. that would be ridiculous. - after all, sokker is about competition, and nothing else.
(edited)
a team shall rise and eventually become new champion because it is victourious on the pitch ( and the manager cares about the development of his squad and is able to make good deals etc.) - a club shall not rise because it is favoured by some strange mood system. a champion shall not go down because he is let down by strange behaviour of the fans. that would be ridiculous. - after all, sokker is about competition, and nothing else.
(edited)
nobody wants the champs to go down because of a special treatment.
Its just that a 4time champ in an uncomfortable position in the middle of the season is not where his fans want him to be. Thats a reason to be furious for at least for some fans - so mood should drop steeply. No matter if he still is the 3rd-best club. When if not in this situation should his fans show emotions and a be in a bad mood? when he is in relegated to a lower league? fans do react earlier, it seems ok to me. Who says they will never be happy again? Drama.
Its just that a 4time champ in an uncomfortable position in the middle of the season is not where his fans want him to be. Thats a reason to be furious for at least for some fans - so mood should drop steeply. No matter if he still is the 3rd-best club. When if not in this situation should his fans show emotions and a be in a bad mood? when he is in relegated to a lower league? fans do react earlier, it seems ok to me. Who says they will never be happy again? Drama.
a last year cup winner may easily face a bad fanmood when out of cup. Without going mad =0 Why do you take it as continually unfair? The cup winner of this season will face the same situation as you now.
You know fans, they never show too much patience and surely don't treat u with kid gloves when they find something to complain about.
You know fans, they never show too much patience and surely don't treat u with kid gloves when they find something to complain about.
well just have a look now:
my team, founded 2007, did quite well so far, but is not particulary sucessfull: the sv wienerberger has got 1600 fans by now, is playing in the third austrian level for many seasons and finished once on second position but most of the time - and also last season - third.
last sunday i met a very young team, the sv zauberwald: it founded this year, managed to promote just now and has got 730 fans. the weather was bad and so only 15564 visitors attended the game.
loop has founded his team one year earlier, has got 2500 fans by now, could reach the semi-finals of the austrian cup once and has finished four times - including last season - in first position of the bundesliga.
last sunday he met with a very strong team, which has got more than 2000 fans. this match, which was played in the same region (vienna) but in the highest austrian league level was only attended by 15595 visitors. so these two matches had the same audience, despite one was played two league-levels higher between teams having twice the fanclub-size.
- even if his is an extreme example, which only occured because of the bad weather, i guess it becomes quite clear now that we are not only talking about fan-mood: the whole economic development of the teams is greatly affected by this change. take, for example, our arenas:
my arena is quite small, even for my league level: i was lucky, because i had decided to build another roof instead of more benches and terraces at the end of last season. without knowing about the new fan-mood system at this point of time i had just thought that it was unwise to enlarge my arena because it was unlikely that it would be sold out on each match day. and as i am quite sure that visitors who attend terraces do not depend on their mood to the same extend as those who attend benches i was lucky in another respect too: the colors of my team are blue & white and so i wanted to have not only benches in my stadion. - if you look at the new fan mood system it turns out that i did everything right.
on the contrary, loops concept which was very profitable so far, now turns out to be all wrong: he
has build a huge arena - 50k places - without roof. his stadion is designed to give room to as many people as possible - his money went into a concept which was based on the principle that fan mood was easy to keep on an high level and that it was better to build more places than a protection against bad weather. - because of the change in the fan mood system this concept is failing right now.
nobody wants the champs to go down because of a special treatment.
well, at least in this case thats what is happening: because of the new mood system which leads not only to a decline in visitors but also in sponsorship. loop is making -250k a week now. he has to sell key players to avoid bancruptcy and will be out of the title race only for economic reasons. - competition in bundesliga is serioulsy disturbed and thats a fact.
same might happen in my small league: the long reigning champ fortuna is only second so far. if his fans and sponsors react in a similar way, than he also might have to sell some players to survive. - in this case the title would be a matter between gutau and my team, both being undefeated so far. but i am sure we both would prefer to become champ after we could defeat our old advisary in full strenght on the pitch - and not after he got defeated by the moods of his fans.
my team, founded 2007, did quite well so far, but is not particulary sucessfull: the sv wienerberger has got 1600 fans by now, is playing in the third austrian level for many seasons and finished once on second position but most of the time - and also last season - third.
last sunday i met a very young team, the sv zauberwald: it founded this year, managed to promote just now and has got 730 fans. the weather was bad and so only 15564 visitors attended the game.
loop has founded his team one year earlier, has got 2500 fans by now, could reach the semi-finals of the austrian cup once and has finished four times - including last season - in first position of the bundesliga.
last sunday he met with a very strong team, which has got more than 2000 fans. this match, which was played in the same region (vienna) but in the highest austrian league level was only attended by 15595 visitors. so these two matches had the same audience, despite one was played two league-levels higher between teams having twice the fanclub-size.
- even if his is an extreme example, which only occured because of the bad weather, i guess it becomes quite clear now that we are not only talking about fan-mood: the whole economic development of the teams is greatly affected by this change. take, for example, our arenas:
my arena is quite small, even for my league level: i was lucky, because i had decided to build another roof instead of more benches and terraces at the end of last season. without knowing about the new fan-mood system at this point of time i had just thought that it was unwise to enlarge my arena because it was unlikely that it would be sold out on each match day. and as i am quite sure that visitors who attend terraces do not depend on their mood to the same extend as those who attend benches i was lucky in another respect too: the colors of my team are blue & white and so i wanted to have not only benches in my stadion. - if you look at the new fan mood system it turns out that i did everything right.
on the contrary, loops concept which was very profitable so far, now turns out to be all wrong: he
has build a huge arena - 50k places - without roof. his stadion is designed to give room to as many people as possible - his money went into a concept which was based on the principle that fan mood was easy to keep on an high level and that it was better to build more places than a protection against bad weather. - because of the change in the fan mood system this concept is failing right now.
nobody wants the champs to go down because of a special treatment.
well, at least in this case thats what is happening: because of the new mood system which leads not only to a decline in visitors but also in sponsorship. loop is making -250k a week now. he has to sell key players to avoid bancruptcy and will be out of the title race only for economic reasons. - competition in bundesliga is serioulsy disturbed and thats a fact.
same might happen in my small league: the long reigning champ fortuna is only second so far. if his fans and sponsors react in a similar way, than he also might have to sell some players to survive. - in this case the title would be a matter between gutau and my team, both being undefeated so far. but i am sure we both would prefer to become champ after we could defeat our old advisary in full strenght on the pitch - and not after he got defeated by the moods of his fans.
Your audience example is extreme, but it's not rare - in Hungary the teams in the first league usually have worse audiences than some second or even third league teams...
we need a developer to help us to understand all of this mess...
I won the cup last year and went out early this year and I've not seen unreasonable mood
Ty Glück for the elaborate description of this situation. Provides a valuable insight. I see that the sudden change of the system does harm. This is lamentable - your intention is creditable, I won't pick on you. But I'm looking forward to see this fanmood system working and feeling natural, as soon as the pain of the transition is over.
The idea was good but the way it is being applied is not working. It is way too easy to drop fan mood levels but is extremely hard to climb back up IMO. Combine that with the amount of randomness in Sokker and things get even more volatile. All anyone can do is put a team out and choose tactics to do a job after that we have no control over silly card happy refs or the often harsh amount of injuries and that's before we even get to attackers missing open goals and such.
To make that even worse the randomness to me seems to be applied in trends to teams and not to the matches on the whole so you can be kicked while you are down by having men off while they get no cards then picking an injury or two up as well. That brings us to the knock on affect of supsensions and injuries weakening a team and the brutal affect that can have with this new system. One of the guys that got promoted into my league got his gk injured 3 times last season I think, how can you legislate for that kind of bad luck and now it could hurt even more because the fans would be too stupid to see what's happened and fail to make allowances.
We have not been told exactly what affects the results but we do know that past records apparently do, ranking does not and friendlies are not supposed to but apparently do anyway. While I would like longer term trends to affect the mood instead of one off results I think applying last season's league positions and cup runs is not very good on it's own because teams buy and sell a lot for starters so team strength can improve or lower hugely. There is also the problem that if past perfomances affect too much it will really punish those who have done well with a weak team.
Although it's hard to find a difinitive way to measure team strengths I do think that some way of doing that should be sought and used because surely fans would take into account the relative strength of the two teams on the pitch and therefore not over expect. I also think that an unexpected side affect could arise because of these changes as time passes. In the past IMO teams have attacked and given it good go because at worst they would lose one fan mood level with a loss regardless of the scoreline. Now with this system teams could play ultra defensive when they think they have little chance in a game and can actually rescue fan mood by being negative while an attacking team can lose multiple fan mood levels even when they went all out attack which brings us full circle really with this post, it's too easy to drop moods and extremely hard to climb back up.
If this system was to stay as it is I would suggest that the link with sponsors income be severed. Fan mood should affect new fans joining or leaving as it does now, it should also affect crowds at games but on a longer trend basis so a loss just means a few percent less crowd turn up for the next game but not a brutal drop like sometimes happens now. Sponsors income could then be more realistic and be set at the start of the season for the whole of that season based on the fanbase.
At the moment my fan mood has climbed back to 6/7 but I can still see the flaws in the new system. It feels like there is an accident just waiting to happen and I could drop 3 levels from just bad luck. It seems very silly to let something that can be out of our control have such a huge affect on how well we can do, surely having skill affect things is better.
To make that even worse the randomness to me seems to be applied in trends to teams and not to the matches on the whole so you can be kicked while you are down by having men off while they get no cards then picking an injury or two up as well. That brings us to the knock on affect of supsensions and injuries weakening a team and the brutal affect that can have with this new system. One of the guys that got promoted into my league got his gk injured 3 times last season I think, how can you legislate for that kind of bad luck and now it could hurt even more because the fans would be too stupid to see what's happened and fail to make allowances.
We have not been told exactly what affects the results but we do know that past records apparently do, ranking does not and friendlies are not supposed to but apparently do anyway. While I would like longer term trends to affect the mood instead of one off results I think applying last season's league positions and cup runs is not very good on it's own because teams buy and sell a lot for starters so team strength can improve or lower hugely. There is also the problem that if past perfomances affect too much it will really punish those who have done well with a weak team.
Although it's hard to find a difinitive way to measure team strengths I do think that some way of doing that should be sought and used because surely fans would take into account the relative strength of the two teams on the pitch and therefore not over expect. I also think that an unexpected side affect could arise because of these changes as time passes. In the past IMO teams have attacked and given it good go because at worst they would lose one fan mood level with a loss regardless of the scoreline. Now with this system teams could play ultra defensive when they think they have little chance in a game and can actually rescue fan mood by being negative while an attacking team can lose multiple fan mood levels even when they went all out attack which brings us full circle really with this post, it's too easy to drop moods and extremely hard to climb back up.
If this system was to stay as it is I would suggest that the link with sponsors income be severed. Fan mood should affect new fans joining or leaving as it does now, it should also affect crowds at games but on a longer trend basis so a loss just means a few percent less crowd turn up for the next game but not a brutal drop like sometimes happens now. Sponsors income could then be more realistic and be set at the start of the season for the whole of that season based on the fanbase.
At the moment my fan mood has climbed back to 6/7 but I can still see the flaws in the new system. It feels like there is an accident just waiting to happen and I could drop 3 levels from just bad luck. It seems very silly to let something that can be out of our control have such a huge affect on how well we can do, surely having skill affect things is better.
I don't think a league winner will relegate because of fan mood :)
I can totally see the point you're making but I don't think you realise just how easy us national champions have had it in this game. Once you reached the top before this change it was impossible for anybody to ever catch up as you would always have a much superior economy, I think my fan mood has dropped maybe once or twice in the last 5 or 6 seasons meaning I've always had the best possible crowds and a huge income relative to anybody else.
From now on it's going to be much more of a challenge for me, rather than sending out a ,more or less, default lineup in games against weaker teams I'm going to have to take care with it to ensure I win by enough to not lose a supporter level. With every game including friendlies being important for this reason I'll enjoy it a lot more whether I lose some fans along the way or not. By adapting to the new system rather than throwing a stress about it I think I'll still be able to keep very strong. What I don't want is this game stagnating and having an out of control economy like Hattrick as the devs there were afraid to upset the older established teams by changing anything. Without this change inflation would have just kept on rising and rising, again something that would only benefit the top teams.
I can totally see the point you're making but I don't think you realise just how easy us national champions have had it in this game. Once you reached the top before this change it was impossible for anybody to ever catch up as you would always have a much superior economy, I think my fan mood has dropped maybe once or twice in the last 5 or 6 seasons meaning I've always had the best possible crowds and a huge income relative to anybody else.
From now on it's going to be much more of a challenge for me, rather than sending out a ,more or less, default lineup in games against weaker teams I'm going to have to take care with it to ensure I win by enough to not lose a supporter level. With every game including friendlies being important for this reason I'll enjoy it a lot more whether I lose some fans along the way or not. By adapting to the new system rather than throwing a stress about it I think I'll still be able to keep very strong. What I don't want is this game stagnating and having an out of control economy like Hattrick as the devs there were afraid to upset the older established teams by changing anything. Without this change inflation would have just kept on rising and rising, again something that would only benefit the top teams.
Fair enough. If some people (including dev's apparently) keep ignoring the huge financial negative impact this change brings and if some people keep ignoring the fact that not only big top league teams are complaining, then I have another suggestion: let's make sponsor & attendance independent from fan mood.
As already explained by others in other threads, a sponsor signs a yearly contract, the total amount is divided in weekly payments. The sponsor amount should therefore be re-negociated at the end of season, strictly based on the final result in championship & cup.
The attendance in RL is strictly depending on previous results, on position in the league just before the match, on size of fanclubs of opposing teams and on distance between stadiums. Well, let's make this happen in Sokker too.
In this way, if a supporter is very angry at his team because the team "only" won 7-0 instead of the 312-0 he expected (but then is he a real supporter?), it won't have such huge financial impact.
Additional quizz question: can someone with common sense understand that fans leave even though the supported team is 1st in the league with max points, regardless of the score of the games so far played in the league?
(edited)
As already explained by others in other threads, a sponsor signs a yearly contract, the total amount is divided in weekly payments. The sponsor amount should therefore be re-negociated at the end of season, strictly based on the final result in championship & cup.
The attendance in RL is strictly depending on previous results, on position in the league just before the match, on size of fanclubs of opposing teams and on distance between stadiums. Well, let's make this happen in Sokker too.
In this way, if a supporter is very angry at his team because the team "only" won 7-0 instead of the 312-0 he expected (but then is he a real supporter?), it won't have such huge financial impact.
Additional quizz question: can someone with common sense understand that fans leave even though the supported team is 1st in the league with max points, regardless of the score of the games so far played in the league?
(edited)
A lot of Chelsea fans went off their team in last few seasons even though they were always doing quite well, they just didn't like the style of the team and wanted more entertaining football.
What you've got to remember with the drastic attendance falls you're mentioning is that teams not near the top of their league have always had to deal with that after big losses; this new system just makes it a level playing ground for all in terms of expectations.
I've been looking at your team history as well and I would guess that you could be getting a similar effect through the success you've had in the last few seasons. You might not be in a top league but the fact that you've done so well in improving quickly might give a similar effect as you've rarely lost. That is just a guess though. If that were the case then that would be a bug and a completely separate thing to the complaints the top league teams are making. Has your fan mood suffered or has it been more general comments you've been making?
What you've got to remember with the drastic attendance falls you're mentioning is that teams not near the top of their league have always had to deal with that after big losses; this new system just makes it a level playing ground for all in terms of expectations.
I've been looking at your team history as well and I would guess that you could be getting a similar effect through the success you've had in the last few seasons. You might not be in a top league but the fact that you've done so well in improving quickly might give a similar effect as you've rarely lost. That is just a guess though. If that were the case then that would be a bug and a completely separate thing to the complaints the top league teams are making. Has your fan mood suffered or has it been more general comments you've been making?
The only way to get developers to listen to this complaint is for people to boycott their Plus memberships. Do not pay for them the next time they come due. There are several free applications out there that can be used to track the status of your team.