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Subject: Bristol City v Hull
Leeds' 15 points was a completely seperate case to that of Bournemouths, Lutons etc.
You run your club into financial difficulty and enter administration you get 10 points deducted.
If you go Bankrupt, you should get completely thrown out of the league, or start at a certain level again, for Leeds that was supposed to be League 2. Accrington in the past had to start all over again.
You run your club into financial difficulty and enter administration you get 10 points deducted.
If you go Bankrupt, you should get completely thrown out of the league, or start at a certain level again, for Leeds that was supposed to be League 2. Accrington in the past had to start all over again.
Aldershot also had to do this and they've just climbed there way back to the Football League which I think is a fantastic achievment.
I agree with Cartman.
The FA have to have rules in place to stop fatcats using our footie clubs as convenient washing machines for grubby money, which is what is happening. This is why so many clubs run at a loss. They are ideal vehicles, being basically community projects, to offset your losses against. All you need to do is pull out when the going gets tough.
I think the FA should get a little bit tougher on clubs and introduce an operating profit regulation that turns clubs into, effectively, charitable organisations. They make no profit, but no loss either.
@fujor: you are right about Master Bates.
The FA have to have rules in place to stop fatcats using our footie clubs as convenient washing machines for grubby money, which is what is happening. This is why so many clubs run at a loss. They are ideal vehicles, being basically community projects, to offset your losses against. All you need to do is pull out when the going gets tough.
I think the FA should get a little bit tougher on clubs and introduce an operating profit regulation that turns clubs into, effectively, charitable organisations. They make no profit, but no loss either.
@fujor: you are right about Master Bates.
sorry Cartman but you're wrong here.
Leeds financial difficulties were caused by the 2 previous chairman, why should the current chairman carry that burden caused by the ridiculous previous chairmans policies. £30 million and the vast majority of that was from paying former players current contracts after almost every premiership club shafted us.
Leeds 15 point case is currently beign played out at 4 other clubs so i cant see how its a seperate case at all.
and it sounds to me that you dont know whats going on in terms of administration. every club from now on will have to take the route Leeds took after the Football League in thier wisdom removed the rule that made tax a footballing debt that would have to be paid in full. the tax office obviously didn't like this and so have made it their policy to appeal any CVA which immediatly forces a club into an IVA unless they pay 100% of their debts, which eliminates the whole point of administraion and forces clubs into even more trouble.
the tax office took leeds to the high court, a case that lasted exactly 2 days. 1 day for the HMRC to present their case and the next for the judge to throw them out of court because legally they have no right to claim 100% on a cva.
why do you think Luton,Bournmouth, Rotherham and halifax havn't exited administration yet. the new buyers are still fighting their case against the tax office all because the football league has screwed over their own clubs and wont even help them out. instead it punishes them for taking the recommended action. if you think this is fair then you're wrong. punishing clubs that are already in trouble with draconian point deductions only furthers their misery, on and off the pitch.
Leeds financial difficulties were caused by the 2 previous chairman, why should the current chairman carry that burden caused by the ridiculous previous chairmans policies. £30 million and the vast majority of that was from paying former players current contracts after almost every premiership club shafted us.
Leeds 15 point case is currently beign played out at 4 other clubs so i cant see how its a seperate case at all.
and it sounds to me that you dont know whats going on in terms of administration. every club from now on will have to take the route Leeds took after the Football League in thier wisdom removed the rule that made tax a footballing debt that would have to be paid in full. the tax office obviously didn't like this and so have made it their policy to appeal any CVA which immediatly forces a club into an IVA unless they pay 100% of their debts, which eliminates the whole point of administraion and forces clubs into even more trouble.
the tax office took leeds to the high court, a case that lasted exactly 2 days. 1 day for the HMRC to present their case and the next for the judge to throw them out of court because legally they have no right to claim 100% on a cva.
why do you think Luton,Bournmouth, Rotherham and halifax havn't exited administration yet. the new buyers are still fighting their case against the tax office all because the football league has screwed over their own clubs and wont even help them out. instead it punishes them for taking the recommended action. if you think this is fair then you're wrong. punishing clubs that are already in trouble with draconian point deductions only furthers their misery, on and off the pitch.
The FA did that? About the tax becoming a footballing debt? Numpties!
Jaize. the FA dont make these rules, im pretty sure the FA can't make any rule regarding finances. its down to the league. either the Football League or the Premier League.
anyway im glad thats not happening at Leeds because we've been running at profit for the last 3 years and always did before Ridsdale came in.
you are right though but you have to agree its not right to punish new owners on and off the pitch for the indiscretions made by the previous administration. all it takes is that clubs be a bit smarter with their money and i think its sinking in at the Football League level.
anyway im glad thats not happening at Leeds because we've been running at profit for the last 3 years and always did before Ridsdale came in.
you are right though but you have to agree its not right to punish new owners on and off the pitch for the indiscretions made by the previous administration. all it takes is that clubs be a bit smarter with their money and i think its sinking in at the Football League level.
see the above post Jaize ;)
i dont know what the premier league policy is, somehow i doubt we'll see an administration in the premiership so it doesn't matter.
either way its a sad state of affairs but Mahwhinney (the football league chairman) is corrupt and wont be changing this policy. Bates is raising it at the next AGM but this means that the clubs are going to have to side with bates and leeds. and after all their comments about us this season i doubt they'll have the balls to swallow thier pride and admit how wrong they were about this rule. bournmouths chairman was the one who directed the most hate to us about the 15 point deduction and now he's staring at a similar fate. I'm sure now he knows all the facts.
i dont know what the premier league policy is, somehow i doubt we'll see an administration in the premiership so it doesn't matter.
either way its a sad state of affairs but Mahwhinney (the football league chairman) is corrupt and wont be changing this policy. Bates is raising it at the next AGM but this means that the clubs are going to have to side with bates and leeds. and after all their comments about us this season i doubt they'll have the balls to swallow thier pride and admit how wrong they were about this rule. bournmouths chairman was the one who directed the most hate to us about the 15 point deduction and now he's staring at a similar fate. I'm sure now he knows all the facts.
It looks as though someone somewhere is up to something, you are right. It is also true that a new administration should not be punished for previous indescretions but they take on the failing club and so must be aware of the pitfalls.
If it was a regular company the new guys would be expected to sort out the debt, so why not in footie clubs if they are being run as companies?
If it was a regular company the new guys would be expected to sort out the debt, so why not in footie clubs if they are being run as companies?
something underhand went on from all parties involved.
Bates has actually sorted the debt out now its just taken two administrations to do it because the first one was handled so badly. i dont think think administration should be scraped for football clubs, not at all. i just think that the FA and the Leagues should be doing more to help clubs because in the end its me and you and the players who suffer when things go tits up.
thanks to the football leagues stalling over handing back leeds credit status we couldn't pay our players wages for the first 2 months they were all on emergency pay from KPMG, our administrators. i think its wrong that the league has that power over clubs. not to mention i had to drive to leeds to get my away tickets because leeds weren't allowed to accept credit cards, that was 140 miles round trip there done about 4 times.
Bates has actually sorted the debt out now its just taken two administrations to do it because the first one was handled so badly. i dont think think administration should be scraped for football clubs, not at all. i just think that the FA and the Leagues should be doing more to help clubs because in the end its me and you and the players who suffer when things go tits up.
thanks to the football leagues stalling over handing back leeds credit status we couldn't pay our players wages for the first 2 months they were all on emergency pay from KPMG, our administrators. i think its wrong that the league has that power over clubs. not to mention i had to drive to leeds to get my away tickets because leeds weren't allowed to accept credit cards, that was 140 miles round trip there done about 4 times.
Leeds financial difficulties were caused by the 2 previous chairman, why should the current chairman carry that burden caused by the ridiculous previous chairmans policies
Ok then, I run up £10 billion worth of debt, and sell the club for £0, guess all that debt should just vanish then? What happens to the people they owe money to? If you take that route, no bank/company will give loans to football clubs..
£30 million and the vast majority of that was from paying former players current contracts after almost every premiership club shafted us.
Tbh, why should other clubs worry about Leeds? They do what is best for them, not what helps Leeds out the most.
Leeds 15 point case is currently beign played out at 4 other clubs so i cant see how its a seperate case at all.
Afaik as long as the other clubs can sell off enough assets/find a backer/buyer, and bring in enough money to pay off all their debts, they will be removed from administration, with no other penalties. IIRC Leeds couldn't do this.
Ok then, I run up £10 billion worth of debt, and sell the club for £0, guess all that debt should just vanish then? What happens to the people they owe money to? If you take that route, no bank/company will give loans to football clubs..
£30 million and the vast majority of that was from paying former players current contracts after almost every premiership club shafted us.
Tbh, why should other clubs worry about Leeds? They do what is best for them, not what helps Leeds out the most.
Leeds 15 point case is currently beign played out at 4 other clubs so i cant see how its a seperate case at all.
Afaik as long as the other clubs can sell off enough assets/find a backer/buyer, and bring in enough money to pay off all their debts, they will be removed from administration, with no other penalties. IIRC Leeds couldn't do this.
1. the creditors got paid off, twice! all im saying is why should the current board have to deal with the penalty clauses put in by people no longer involved in the busisness, not the debt after a creditors agreement has been arranged. its a people legacy not a business legacy.
2.i consider making a club pay a players wages when they get no benefit from it is unethical. i also consider that the chairman getting together and making sure everyone does the same thing pretty unethical to. the FA have rules to ensure fair transfers if this isn't against the rules then im amazed.
3.do you really think clubs can do this outside of the premiership? do you really think they can raise the capital to pay off their debts? do you really think they can attract the interest of a backer willing to do this? do you really think their assets are worth that much?
i'll answer the above. no. no. no. no. theres clubs down here who rent their stadium, thats not an asset. who's players are worthless once they enter administration. whos training ground is council property.
yeah what you say would be nice but it really isn't practical for hardly any club. the only chairman who has wiped out debts of their club in my memory is Forests chairman,and he sold his share in Umbro to finance that. not many chairman have his sort of money lying around.
2.i consider making a club pay a players wages when they get no benefit from it is unethical. i also consider that the chairman getting together and making sure everyone does the same thing pretty unethical to. the FA have rules to ensure fair transfers if this isn't against the rules then im amazed.
3.do you really think clubs can do this outside of the premiership? do you really think they can raise the capital to pay off their debts? do you really think they can attract the interest of a backer willing to do this? do you really think their assets are worth that much?
i'll answer the above. no. no. no. no. theres clubs down here who rent their stadium, thats not an asset. who's players are worthless once they enter administration. whos training ground is council property.
yeah what you say would be nice but it really isn't practical for hardly any club. the only chairman who has wiped out debts of their club in my memory is Forests chairman,and he sold his share in Umbro to finance that. not many chairman have his sort of money lying around.
wdp74 to
fujor [del]
The simple truth of the matter is:
Ken bates would not have bought Leeds for such a small amount had there been no debts in the first place.....all he wants is to make money like he did from buying/selling Chelsea......he thought to make it worth more he could get rid of the debts and then start afresh, and then get promoted to the Prem again with little or no debt.
His £1 shares would then expotentially rise in value.....its just not working correctly for him this time.
I feel sorry for Leeds fans but not him.
Ken bates would not have bought Leeds for such a small amount had there been no debts in the first place.....all he wants is to make money like he did from buying/selling Chelsea......he thought to make it worth more he could get rid of the debts and then start afresh, and then get promoted to the Prem again with little or no debt.
His £1 shares would then expotentially rise in value.....its just not working correctly for him this time.
I feel sorry for Leeds fans but not him.
.i consider making a club pay a players wages when they get no benefit from it is unethical
They didn't have to pay the other half though, that was the point.
. i also consider that the chairman getting together and making sure everyone does the same thing pretty unethical to. the FA have rules to ensure fair transfers if this isn't against the rules then im amazed.
If that happened then fine, I agree with you, as it is illegal to do that.
3.do you really think clubs can do this outside of the premiership? do you really think they can raise the capital to pay off their debts? do you really think they can attract the interest of a backer willing to do this? do you really think their assets are worth that much?
They should run themselves better then.
They didn't have to pay the other half though, that was the point.
. i also consider that the chairman getting together and making sure everyone does the same thing pretty unethical to. the FA have rules to ensure fair transfers if this isn't against the rules then im amazed.
If that happened then fine, I agree with you, as it is illegal to do that.
3.do you really think clubs can do this outside of the premiership? do you really think they can raise the capital to pay off their debts? do you really think they can attract the interest of a backer willing to do this? do you really think their assets are worth that much?
They should run themselves better then.
Cartman, hardly any club runs at a profit, a football club in the black is a rare thing. its that sort of blarsay attitude why nothing is ever done about it. all those making money just say that the others should run themselves better. and the ones making money hold all the power.
some clubs cant afford to own a stadium that houses their fans so they have to rent. can you imagine how much they'd lose if they downsized, imagine the fan outrage. it isn't worth thinking about.
that attitude explains why the gap between rich and poor is so huge, why the state of english football is so dire. football isn't just any other business, its not that simple, it is special. to compare football to any other business is counter productive.
for every football club to run themselves better you'd need to start a fresh with a wage cap, everyone with the same size stadium and not allow them to expand. no transfers, no bonus money for winning leagues and cups. no TV money. what a sad state that would be. i'd rather see the governing body protect the game and its fans
some clubs cant afford to own a stadium that houses their fans so they have to rent. can you imagine how much they'd lose if they downsized, imagine the fan outrage. it isn't worth thinking about.
that attitude explains why the gap between rich and poor is so huge, why the state of english football is so dire. football isn't just any other business, its not that simple, it is special. to compare football to any other business is counter productive.
for every football club to run themselves better you'd need to start a fresh with a wage cap, everyone with the same size stadium and not allow them to expand. no transfers, no bonus money for winning leagues and cups. no TV money. what a sad state that would be. i'd rather see the governing body protect the game and its fans
fujor [del] to
wdp74
@Wdp74
Bates shares have already risen but not greatly but that is obviously what he wanted to do but i doubt he'll see leeds back to the prem when he spends most of his money building pubs in the stadium, and trying to build a Leeds village like his chelsea one.
i dont want him there but he's not the tyrant, the enemy of football people think he is, he's just a burke. being fair to him he's over seen leeds from debt and into the black, turning over some decent profit. it was never going to be easy to do that so it may as well be the panto villian doing it.
(edited)
Bates shares have already risen but not greatly but that is obviously what he wanted to do but i doubt he'll see leeds back to the prem when he spends most of his money building pubs in the stadium, and trying to build a Leeds village like his chelsea one.
i dont want him there but he's not the tyrant, the enemy of football people think he is, he's just a burke. being fair to him he's over seen leeds from debt and into the black, turning over some decent profit. it was never going to be easy to do that so it may as well be the panto villian doing it.
(edited)
you have a point here fujor, norwich made a profit of 2 million a couple of seasons back, some fans still moan about it now on the norwich message boards. all that money given to the taxman, etc.
i'd agree with wdp here - it's a shame for the fans, but bates is a vulture looking to pick what he can off the carcuss after he's built it up again. i didn't hear many leeds fans complaining when they were beating Real Madrid though.
i'd agree with wdp here - it's a shame for the fans, but bates is a vulture looking to pick what he can off the carcuss after he's built it up again. i didn't hear many leeds fans complaining when they were beating Real Madrid though.