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Subject: Hattrick changes
hattrick isn't growing. England's been at around 11k for yonkers.
So a bit similar to here, but on a larger scale.
I do like the game i really do, but it took me like a year to realise it. Even now, i can't get too into it because it's just too damned annoying in places, and i'm a very lazy manager which is half the reason i didn't quit. The other half of the reason i didn't quit is because i could see the potential and was waiting for some positive changes (Like i've been doing with HT for ages).
What's really disappointing is the seeming total lack of desire for improvements to be made. Where the improvements are needed the most, the solutions are so damned easy it's untrue, it's not like they're running into hard fixes, or the kind of overhaul HT was long overdue for. All the ingredients are here, it just needs a little polishing.
Say what you like about Hattrick, but at least they've gone all out to try and make the game better, whether they've taken a leaf out of Sokkers book or not, who had the ideas first doesn't really matter, it's who packages them the best to catch the average user and HT wins hands down. It's a shame not just for us, but the people who run the game because the potential for profit is a definate.
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What's really disappointing is the seeming total lack of desire for improvements to be made. Where the improvements are needed the most, the solutions are so damned easy it's untrue, it's not like they're running into hard fixes, or the kind of overhaul HT was long overdue for. All the ingredients are here, it just needs a little polishing.
Say what you like about Hattrick, but at least they've gone all out to try and make the game better, whether they've taken a leaf out of Sokkers book or not, who had the ideas first doesn't really matter, it's who packages them the best to catch the average user and HT wins hands down. It's a shame not just for us, but the people who run the game because the potential for profit is a definate.
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HT related banter aside, I agree with Nutty and bigbak here.
Sokker is open source, real ale and arran jumpers, HT is Intel and Microsoft, a love of money, and accountants in suits on a tea-break.
Sokker feels that it doesn't need to explain itself, maintains a user-hostile interface in order to concentrate on what the devs feel is most important, the game play. The attitude seems to be that if people care enough about the game, they will tolerate the interface. HT explains itself well, looks good and is easy to navigate, but until recently hadn't done much about the way the game actually plays for 5 years at least.
I can't really comment about new changes because I'm no longer on HT, but my understanding of it is that the economy is fundamentally flawed, it's impossible to maintain upper league status without going broke, and it's still got that annoying text driven "match engine", based upon the premise that every match has 10-12 possible goal events. If things have moved on and I'm wrong, please correct me, maybe I'll sign up again.
I'd like to think that after an interminable amount of time of using the large user-base as an excuse to do very little while they developed poppamundo or whatever it was, that Extralives are now having to do something to earn their HT money. I was on HT for about 5 years, and nothing really changed in the time I was there, just small cosmetic stuff. Compare that with changes to the match engine here.
However, Nutty is right, SK will remain a hobbyists game with a small user-base because it doesn't have a large sponsorship, and the interface has put too many average users off. I suspect that that is all its' creators want it to be though, because at this level it can be managed by a small team of devs.
What I'd like to know nutty is what improvements do you want to see ? You say they are obvious, maybe I've been here too often to see them. The main one I'd like to see is a HT style menu system on the left, and these frames got rid of, so the entire web-site is navigable from one place.
Sokker is open source, real ale and arran jumpers, HT is Intel and Microsoft, a love of money, and accountants in suits on a tea-break.
Sokker feels that it doesn't need to explain itself, maintains a user-hostile interface in order to concentrate on what the devs feel is most important, the game play. The attitude seems to be that if people care enough about the game, they will tolerate the interface. HT explains itself well, looks good and is easy to navigate, but until recently hadn't done much about the way the game actually plays for 5 years at least.
I can't really comment about new changes because I'm no longer on HT, but my understanding of it is that the economy is fundamentally flawed, it's impossible to maintain upper league status without going broke, and it's still got that annoying text driven "match engine", based upon the premise that every match has 10-12 possible goal events. If things have moved on and I'm wrong, please correct me, maybe I'll sign up again.
I'd like to think that after an interminable amount of time of using the large user-base as an excuse to do very little while they developed poppamundo or whatever it was, that Extralives are now having to do something to earn their HT money. I was on HT for about 5 years, and nothing really changed in the time I was there, just small cosmetic stuff. Compare that with changes to the match engine here.
However, Nutty is right, SK will remain a hobbyists game with a small user-base because it doesn't have a large sponsorship, and the interface has put too many average users off. I suspect that that is all its' creators want it to be though, because at this level it can be managed by a small team of devs.
What I'd like to know nutty is what improvements do you want to see ? You say they are obvious, maybe I've been here too often to see them. The main one I'd like to see is a HT style menu system on the left, and these frames got rid of, so the entire web-site is navigable from one place.
"Sokker, the real ale of the football management world."
Best quote ever!
I totally agree on the "Maybe I've been here too often to see them." I think is a problem that many of the experianced users have, we have become comfortable with our sokker relationship, so much that we dont mind about her poor personal hygine and bad table manners.
Best quote ever!
I totally agree on the "Maybe I've been here too often to see them." I think is a problem that many of the experianced users have, we have become comfortable with our sokker relationship, so much that we dont mind about her poor personal hygine and bad table manners.
Even as a temp fix, when you sign up a link to a sensible advice manual written clearly, as well as links to other useful resources.
On the navigation bars, a simple word or too when one hovers over it would suffice.
One of the best facets of this game is the freedom of tactics, and ability to see the results on the pitch, totally wasted imo. Tactics are an absolute pain to set, people here may be used to it and find it easy, but i find it a real chore hence why i have only ever set one set of tactics since i joined. It's a bread and butter area, there absolutely no need for it to be so awkward, if i'd come up with it, id say yeah ok for a year or so but this is the main thing we need to sort out.
It's a shame because if the tactics weren't such a pain in the backside, i'd actually watch more of my games and get more enjoyment from sokker, rather than just maintaining a team hoping for some positive changes.
We also need an English speaking liason with the Devs to work England with the power to make changes here and there, write news and translate things properly and clearly. It would also be good for talking to the devs and relaying info back to us so we do realise that they are actually there.
A Sokker questionnaire for newbies maybe, similair to tutorials thay have on Ebay. Test your knowledge find of thing that is voluntary and a link in ones league or team menu or whatever. When someone gets something wrong they're linked to appropriate information.
There are probably other areas i've missed, however the main thing for me to improve this game is user retention, and the best way of doing that is making Sokker more user friendly, and i don't think it's that difficult to do.
On the navigation bars, a simple word or too when one hovers over it would suffice.
One of the best facets of this game is the freedom of tactics, and ability to see the results on the pitch, totally wasted imo. Tactics are an absolute pain to set, people here may be used to it and find it easy, but i find it a real chore hence why i have only ever set one set of tactics since i joined. It's a bread and butter area, there absolutely no need for it to be so awkward, if i'd come up with it, id say yeah ok for a year or so but this is the main thing we need to sort out.
It's a shame because if the tactics weren't such a pain in the backside, i'd actually watch more of my games and get more enjoyment from sokker, rather than just maintaining a team hoping for some positive changes.
We also need an English speaking liason with the Devs to work England with the power to make changes here and there, write news and translate things properly and clearly. It would also be good for talking to the devs and relaying info back to us so we do realise that they are actually there.
A Sokker questionnaire for newbies maybe, similair to tutorials thay have on Ebay. Test your knowledge find of thing that is voluntary and a link in ones league or team menu or whatever. When someone gets something wrong they're linked to appropriate information.
There are probably other areas i've missed, however the main thing for me to improve this game is user retention, and the best way of doing that is making Sokker more user friendly, and i don't think it's that difficult to do.
Champ manager's system for creating tactics is the ultimate. You can right click and do lines, move players anywhere, and if you want to, break it down into "with ball" and "without ball" (Wiblwobl) if you so desire. Even if you use Wiblwobl, you have 12 zones with and 12 zones without. Total of 24. Here, we have 35. 110 more changes needed.
The only problem is, I'm fairly sure that copying the champ manager system would be in breach of some sort of copyright or something. With that in mind, what's the next best way? Is it what we already have? Do you have an idea that I've failed to see? You're right, tactics are both the best part and one of the worst parts of the games. I rarely make new tactics, for instance, and can stay near the top of div II.
The only problem is, I'm fairly sure that copying the champ manager system would be in breach of some sort of copyright or something. With that in mind, what's the next best way? Is it what we already have? Do you have an idea that I've failed to see? You're right, tactics are both the best part and one of the worst parts of the games. I rarely make new tactics, for instance, and can stay near the top of div II.
Navigation - totally agree. If it can't all be in one place, then at least it should be explained.
Tactics - It's horses for courses, but I think that the tactics system is the most flexible one I've come across in a game of this type, once you get past the initial UI quirks. Some on-screen step by step instructions would be useful here, maybe a flash presentation linked from the tactics page ?
English liason - unlikely, we're a small island off the polish / belgian mainland in terms of userbase geoegraphy, although this is probably done already in an informal manner by gibbage and forestman. The url itself feels foreign, and I guess some english people don't respond to that very well, hence the lack of retention in England.
Questionnaire / test your knowledge. Brilliant idea. HT have a diploma now don't they, gives you some money when you first start ? If handled properly, could be a good way of keeping people here.
Some great ideas there nutty, would you want to post them in Bugs / ideas ? I've had a couple of things picked up in there, although they were probably also suggested by others, I sometimes wonder if I'm responsible (through suggestions) for tactical discipline, and the money tag in forums too.
(edited)
Tactics - It's horses for courses, but I think that the tactics system is the most flexible one I've come across in a game of this type, once you get past the initial UI quirks. Some on-screen step by step instructions would be useful here, maybe a flash presentation linked from the tactics page ?
English liason - unlikely, we're a small island off the polish / belgian mainland in terms of userbase geoegraphy, although this is probably done already in an informal manner by gibbage and forestman. The url itself feels foreign, and I guess some english people don't respond to that very well, hence the lack of retention in England.
Questionnaire / test your knowledge. Brilliant idea. HT have a diploma now don't they, gives you some money when you first start ? If handled properly, could be a good way of keeping people here.
Some great ideas there nutty, would you want to post them in Bugs / ideas ? I've had a couple of things picked up in there, although they were probably also suggested by others, I sometimes wonder if I'm responsible (through suggestions) for tactical discipline, and the money tag in forums too.
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I hardly dug it up, it was on page 2 of SK international.
ah - y'see. There's the difference between an anorak and a new user.
What's an SK International ?
What's an SK International ?
How to create a line-up
I think the problem here is that a lot of the knowledge that is forum based could probably be better passed on by using links in the UI.
I think the problem here is that a lot of the knowledge that is forum based could probably be better passed on by using links in the UI.
With that in mind, what's the next best way? Is it what we already have? Do you have an idea that I've failed to see?
I don't actually have a problem with the way of doing it, what i have a problem with is the fact it's not particularly obvious how to do it. I'm sure all of us have moved all the little players around in there places, spent half an hour getting it just so, pressing save and the whole lot disappears. It want's to be the same, just simplified really.
A link to a direct explanation of pit falls, and exactly how to do things on the actual page would be a good start even with things as they are.
Basically it needs to be a little more self explanatory, rather than pretending to be self explantory and not being.
It's alright saying the information's in this forum and that forum, but most people myself included don't wish to scout through forums to get the required clear information, it should bloody be there already in easy reach.
I don't actually have a problem with the way of doing it, what i have a problem with is the fact it's not particularly obvious how to do it. I'm sure all of us have moved all the little players around in there places, spent half an hour getting it just so, pressing save and the whole lot disappears. It want's to be the same, just simplified really.
A link to a direct explanation of pit falls, and exactly how to do things on the actual page would be a good start even with things as they are.
Basically it needs to be a little more self explanatory, rather than pretending to be self explantory and not being.
It's alright saying the information's in this forum and that forum, but most people myself included don't wish to scout through forums to get the required clear information, it should bloody be there already in easy reach.
I would post in bugs and ideas, but you see that would involve me caring enough and believing that anything would happen. Give it 6 months for the first part, this games a slow grower.
ok, well, i've posted the suggestion that a youtube video of how to create a tactic should be put on the line up page, and linked the video here and in the newbie forum. hopefully that might help a few new players.