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Subject: C Leagues
I do not understand what is the fun of playing with bots...it is clear that there are too few users in the C-league, it seems clear
that we should change, cut in half the number of C leagues would be a solution, any other solution would be fine as well.
that we should change, cut in half the number of C leagues would be a solution, any other solution would be fine as well.
Well if there are so many bots it should be easy to promote and get into some real matches in the B-Leagues , and besides what would happen to the new guys in sokker? They should have a place to practice and get ready for the upper leagues, otherwhise if they get beaten all the time,they will have no supporters no funds to buy new players , get deppressed and leave => bot teams again.
And in all the countries the last league is full of bots, so just go with the flow.
Keep it just the way it is.
And in all the countries the last league is full of bots, so just go with the flow.
Keep it just the way it is.
i agree. as much as I would like to see the C league be a bit more competitive, as far as real users, I also realize that if there were 6 real people in a C league, it would take FOREVER to get promoted into B, for someone fresh to the game. Someone coming into USA right now, will probably play 2 full seasons by the time they can be competitive in a qualifier. I think that is pretty realistic. playing 4-6 seasons before getting to the top in the easiest league in the game is pretty silly. Not to mention, you would really be hard pressed to afford 6 seasons of play with the amount of income from a C league team. You would be stuck with some really sucky coaches, and really low end players, for a LONG time. That's no fun for anyone, in my opinion.
It makes sense to keep it the way it is.
This game isn't so easy and most need time to learn how to play the game. The pushing of the buttons is easy, but player mgmt, like what to train, what type of players to buy and how much to spend on players, stadium, coaches, etc. takes time to learn.
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This game isn't so easy and most need time to learn how to play the game. The pushing of the buttons is easy, but player mgmt, like what to train, what type of players to buy and how much to spend on players, stadium, coaches, etc. takes time to learn.
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ok. I have stayed out of this for a bit and let the dust fly. now...as someone who has been stuck in C-lvl for 3 seasons, let me speak my peace. I would not trade the lessons i have learned by not being good enough to promote out. part of it is my own silliness at not taking instruction. part of it is i got outmanaged by some other players. the learning curve of C cannot be eliminated. on the other hand, something hs to be done to make it more competitive and interesting if we are going to grow the US presence here.
as much as i hate to say it, the structure needs to remain the same, otherwise there is no place for more players, except putting them in leagues where there are only bot teams..and we are back where we started. I think stronger bot teams, to make play a bit more difficult and strengthen the learning curve, is the better way to go. There should, for example, never be a walkover against a bot team.
as much as i hate to say it, the structure needs to remain the same, otherwise there is no place for more players, except putting them in leagues where there are only bot teams..and we are back where we started. I think stronger bot teams, to make play a bit more difficult and strengthen the learning curve, is the better way to go. There should, for example, never be a walkover against a bot team.
Not to mention the number of supporters you have gained in that time.
what are you talking about? My record against the bots is like 50:0. What is there to improve? I will end up second in the league and obviously will stay in C. But that IS NOT what we are talking about. My complaint is that I have only 4 games a season that are challenging, and some have only two. The rest of the games are just formalities. That takes away a lot of excitement from the game. In the upper leagues you have an interesting game almost every week. I have one once a month.
It is not about not being able to advance. I don't care if I play in B or C as long as I am challenged every week, not twice a season.
It is not about not being able to advance. I don't care if I play in B or C as long as I am challenged every week, not twice a season.
If a team is in C-League and playing against bots he should be able to promote in his first season if he's the only human team.
If anybody is having trouble beating bots please get a mentor.
You need a couple seasons to train players worth selling (between 500K and 1 M depending on age.) so 1 or 2 (max) winning seasons in C-League should be beneficial.
If anybody is having trouble beating bots please get a mentor.
You need a couple seasons to train players worth selling (between 500K and 1 M depending on age.) so 1 or 2 (max) winning seasons in C-League should be beneficial.
I think we explained before, but I'll try again. Imagine you are in a C-league with 6 bots and one team that just got relegated from B and is much stronger than you. It is going to be very difficult to beat that one team and advance, just as it is difficult to advance from B to A. The difference is that in B you have remaining 5-6 teams that can challenge you, while in C the games against the 6 bots are formalities. You know you will win 5:0 or more, they all play the same stupid normal tactics, they do not challenge you to improve your tactics.
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Now, imagine the lessons you would have learned if you had more human opponents, each playing a different tactics, each trying to out out maneuver you. Your learning curve would be much steeper. The way it is now the games against bots are just space-(or rather time)-fillers. I don't buy your argument.
Besides, you yourself talk about lessons learned from playing people that try to outmanage you. That's precisely the point. There aren't many such people in C-leagues. MOST TEAMS ARE BOTS and they do not try to out manage you.
Another thing I notice is that most of you arguing against this proposal actually treat the C-league as a "waiting room". All you are supposed to do in C is wait for your shot at promotion and once you get out of there the real game begins. My problem is that I don't want to just wait in C. I want to have real challenges there to make the game worth playing even at that level.
Another thing, Coach Mark, is your argument about lack of space for new users. That's flawed too. Let's do some math. Now we have 64 c-leagues with room for 512 players. Out of these about 2-3 per league are human (let's say 2.5 per league on the average). Out of 512 teams in C, only 160 are human-managed. If you cut the number of C leagues by half, to 32, that gives you still 256 teams. You would have about 100 teams available to new users. Look at the stats: I the last season there was no net gain of users. 100 teams is certainly enough to manage the turnover. If we start gaining, say, 20 users net per season, that still gives you 5 seasons to react before you run out of teams.
From my experience and comments from several C-leaguers: people do not leave the game because they are frustrated at not being able to advance to B; people leave because they are frustrated at being reduced to waiting for this advancement to begin using this game to its full potential. Please recognize the difference.
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Besides, you yourself talk about lessons learned from playing people that try to outmanage you. That's precisely the point. There aren't many such people in C-leagues. MOST TEAMS ARE BOTS and they do not try to out manage you.
Another thing I notice is that most of you arguing against this proposal actually treat the C-league as a "waiting room". All you are supposed to do in C is wait for your shot at promotion and once you get out of there the real game begins. My problem is that I don't want to just wait in C. I want to have real challenges there to make the game worth playing even at that level.
Another thing, Coach Mark, is your argument about lack of space for new users. That's flawed too. Let's do some math. Now we have 64 c-leagues with room for 512 players. Out of these about 2-3 per league are human (let's say 2.5 per league on the average). Out of 512 teams in C, only 160 are human-managed. If you cut the number of C leagues by half, to 32, that gives you still 256 teams. You would have about 100 teams available to new users. Look at the stats: I the last season there was no net gain of users. 100 teams is certainly enough to manage the turnover. If we start gaining, say, 20 users net per season, that still gives you 5 seasons to react before you run out of teams.
From my experience and comments from several C-leaguers: people do not leave the game because they are frustrated at not being able to advance to B; people leave because they are frustrated at being reduced to waiting for this advancement to begin using this game to its full potential. Please recognize the difference.
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In some posts in other treads several of you expressed concerns over newbie retention. I presume that's why you established the mentoring system etc. Great. Some of you blame the poor layout making it confusing to newbies to navigate. I partially agree, I've seen better designs, but I've seen much worse too. But you seem to refuse to accept one more reason for poor newbie retention. After the novelty of the game wears off, and if you do not advance to B right away, you're stuck in this holding place (the C-league) and the game gets boring until you advance. I like the game, but I really am not sure if I want to spend the next 3 months just waiting for 4 meaningful games. If it's anything like the middle of the last season with game after game against bots won 5:0 or 8:0, I might just quit. I am trying to convince you to look at this problem from my perspective, too. If you don't, the problem with poor retention will continue. As krepa pointed out you might want to look at how this is handled e.g. in the Polish league, since they have the most experience.
Finally, I did not see many posts from C-leaguers here. Most criticism of this proposal came from people in higher leagues, but what do the C-leaguers really think about it. Before you start casting your vote for or against, I think people that are most affected by it (and people that do not post much here) should be asked. If their opinion is that we should leave it the way it is I'll simply shut up and decide for myself if I quit or not.
A request to the admin: could you do some kind of a poll of C-leaguers on this matter?
Finally, I did not see many posts from C-leaguers here. Most criticism of this proposal came from people in higher leagues, but what do the C-leaguers really think about it. Before you start casting your vote for or against, I think people that are most affected by it (and people that do not post much here) should be asked. If their opinion is that we should leave it the way it is I'll simply shut up and decide for myself if I quit or not.
A request to the admin: could you do some kind of a poll of C-leaguers on this matter?
please read other posts cause it seems some of you do not
IT WILL NOT BE MORE DIFFICULT TO ADVANCE. IF TWO TEAMS advance from every human C league and the number or users increases by two it will be either the same or easier.
if there is one team that was relegated from a B league it is very difficult for someone who has never been there to beat that team. but with TWO teams advancing there are more options
and apacan is RIGHT. the learning curve would be much higher!!!!!!!!
IT WILL NOT BE MORE DIFFICULT TO ADVANCE. IF TWO TEAMS advance from every human C league and the number or users increases by two it will be either the same or easier.
if there is one team that was relegated from a B league it is very difficult for someone who has never been there to beat that team. but with TWO teams advancing there are more options
and apacan is RIGHT. the learning curve would be much higher!!!!!!!!
It takes a few weeks to learn it not 3 seasons.
With more real users people will not learn more slowly! If some of them do then they will not advance simple as that.
Those who do advance will have a decent understanding of the game
With more real users people will not learn more slowly! If some of them do then they will not advance simple as that.
Those who do advance will have a decent understanding of the game
to ALL that oppose the changes
please READ what changes are proposed first before you say you do not like them. also please read the problems that we point out.
it seems that some of you read one or two posts and WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING the whole situation disagree about the changes
please READ what changes are proposed first before you say you do not like them. also please read the problems that we point out.
it seems that some of you read one or two posts and WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING the whole situation disagree about the changes