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Subject: C Leagues
This game is not about playing against bots.
One of the main issue about this game is challenging other users. To have only 2 real users in each C-league is a little too few.
Anyway I respect whatever your opinion is, but let me say that if something stinks, this might be you. :) We wrote to admis some months ago that since we are friends we log in from the same computer from time to time.
We started this forum just because we like this game and we would like to improve it.
There is no need to accuse of collusion, your attitude is pretty unfair, we just wanted to share some common opinion about this game,
hoping that this will lead to an improvement.
One of the main issue about this game is challenging other users. To have only 2 real users in each C-league is a little too few.
Anyway I respect whatever your opinion is, but let me say that if something stinks, this might be you. :) We wrote to admis some months ago that since we are friends we log in from the same computer from time to time.
We started this forum just because we like this game and we would like to improve it.
There is no need to accuse of collusion, your attitude is pretty unfair, we just wanted to share some common opinion about this game,
hoping that this will lead to an improvement.
and thats where we disagree... having easily beat-able bots in C league allows users to gain an understanding without being completely killed... my scenario is this... a new player signs up and is gracious placed into a c-league with 4 other teams that have been there for two and three seasons and and one team that was just relegated from b league... at what point do the beatings he receives become "fun," "challenging," and more "educational"...
I am currently in C, and about to auto promote out, after 2.5 seasons. I played and lost in a qualifier last season-against an active team. I COMPLETELY agree with ivysafety. In my opinion, getting your ass handed to you on a weekly basis, as soon as you start a new game is not fun. That WOULD happen, if you had 5+ user teams that had been in that league for a few seasons, plus the team relegated from the higher league.
At the same time, I somewhat agree with the OP(s) that it gets kind of boring playing the same tactic over and over. Rather than increasing the learning curve to where new teams would not have a chance to compete with teams that have been in the game for a while, just change the BOT team engine. Make them change tactics every few weeks, so you never know what to expect. Something like that would act the same as having a real team, without the incredible beating that would inevitably result if you shrink everyone into the same leagues.
Just from my experience, this is the very first sports sim that I picked up. I never played HT, or any of the others. I picked this up by word of mouth from a friend (benmor). Therefore, it was completely new for me. The learning curve isn't THAT steep, but there is still a curve. You have to learn how to use the interface, because it's not very functional for a new user. I understand that there might be frustration in playing teams that are crappy bots, but that should be the time that you are learning how the game truly operates. You should be learning and understanding how training works, playing with tactics against bots, and figuring out what works and what doesn't. Once you get that figured out, you should easily advance to the next "stage" of the game, B league. Then the ass beating commences. Without a doubt, a manager that has come to understand how the game operates will be able to advance to this stage. If you don't yet understand, then you shouldn't be able to promote, and should be content playing against less skilled opponents (or bots).
If you guys, OP(s), are so skilled at picking the game up so readily, good for you. A lot of users won't. The key to keeping new players is not making it MORE difficult for them to succeed right away, it's showing them how the game works, in an environment that is keyed for their success. This is what I feel the C league does right now, and I think it should stay that way.
At the same time, I somewhat agree with the OP(s) that it gets kind of boring playing the same tactic over and over. Rather than increasing the learning curve to where new teams would not have a chance to compete with teams that have been in the game for a while, just change the BOT team engine. Make them change tactics every few weeks, so you never know what to expect. Something like that would act the same as having a real team, without the incredible beating that would inevitably result if you shrink everyone into the same leagues.
Just from my experience, this is the very first sports sim that I picked up. I never played HT, or any of the others. I picked this up by word of mouth from a friend (benmor). Therefore, it was completely new for me. The learning curve isn't THAT steep, but there is still a curve. You have to learn how to use the interface, because it's not very functional for a new user. I understand that there might be frustration in playing teams that are crappy bots, but that should be the time that you are learning how the game truly operates. You should be learning and understanding how training works, playing with tactics against bots, and figuring out what works and what doesn't. Once you get that figured out, you should easily advance to the next "stage" of the game, B league. Then the ass beating commences. Without a doubt, a manager that has come to understand how the game operates will be able to advance to this stage. If you don't yet understand, then you shouldn't be able to promote, and should be content playing against less skilled opponents (or bots).
If you guys, OP(s), are so skilled at picking the game up so readily, good for you. A lot of users won't. The key to keeping new players is not making it MORE difficult for them to succeed right away, it's showing them how the game works, in an environment that is keyed for their success. This is what I feel the C league does right now, and I think it should stay that way.
I agree with that.
I think it would help if the new users had more of a community here in the forums. Then, beating bots for a season until they promote isn't the only thing going on in the game, there would also be people to talk to in the forums, etc.
I think it would help if the new users had more of a community here in the forums. Then, beating bots for a season until they promote isn't the only thing going on in the game, there would also be people to talk to in the forums, etc.
I play in the C-League, after my first year I won promotion to B league, where I couldn't do anything, simply my best player was $180k, other guys had a bunch of $400k players. After relegation, now I'm first again in my C league and 2nd guy has the same number of points before the last game that we play against each other on my side. Hopefully I'll win it.
It is boring, I'm thinking to quit this game. Only thing is that my team will be a bit stronger if I get promoted again. I have a few players that developed and are now over 200k, and I got a 350k goalie from my youth team, who is 18 and has goalkeeping 11. I will get one more player from my academy in 2 weeks who is currently 11, and one more in 6 weeks who is currently 10. I'm hoping that they'll be good players that could help me.
I have played Championship Manager and now Football Manager extremely competitively for the last 10 years. I'm really good in these games, my tactics here is in my opinion very good. Still how can I do anything if the other teams in the B leagues have much better players? And I can't get good players because I don't have enough money. The only hope is to develop some players, which is hard, because the whole Sokker engine is total BULLSHIT! 90% of the players generated in youth academy are worthless, maybe even more. This week two players I got into academy had 1 and 3 grades. Additionally abilities of players in your team are not improving as much as they should. And I have a solid coaches, probably better than almost everyone in C-leagues, one of my coaches is 11. I really have an impression that guys that are doing really well and are playing in the A-leagues are the one that joined Sokker first and not the ones who are the best managers. Anyway this game really starts to suck big time.
It is boring, I'm thinking to quit this game. Only thing is that my team will be a bit stronger if I get promoted again. I have a few players that developed and are now over 200k, and I got a 350k goalie from my youth team, who is 18 and has goalkeeping 11. I will get one more player from my academy in 2 weeks who is currently 11, and one more in 6 weeks who is currently 10. I'm hoping that they'll be good players that could help me.
I have played Championship Manager and now Football Manager extremely competitively for the last 10 years. I'm really good in these games, my tactics here is in my opinion very good. Still how can I do anything if the other teams in the B leagues have much better players? And I can't get good players because I don't have enough money. The only hope is to develop some players, which is hard, because the whole Sokker engine is total BULLSHIT! 90% of the players generated in youth academy are worthless, maybe even more. This week two players I got into academy had 1 and 3 grades. Additionally abilities of players in your team are not improving as much as they should. And I have a solid coaches, probably better than almost everyone in C-leagues, one of my coaches is 11. I really have an impression that guys that are doing really well and are playing in the A-leagues are the one that joined Sokker first and not the ones who are the best managers. Anyway this game really starts to suck big time.
Problem with this game is that the bidding system is making sure that the best players always go to the best teams because they have most money. There are no hidden gems players in these game. It's not like Football Manager where you can find a great talent at the bargain price.
It's not like Football Manager where you can find a great talent at the bargain price.
completely bogus. I have quite a few great talent, young players, with good skills, that I was able to afford this season in C LEAGUE!! I guess it depends on what you think is a great talent at a bargain price. I have 2 guys right now that I have in my striker/tech/pace program, that I bought for VERY reasonable prices, and will be able to sell at a HUGE profit, with good talent, relative to C league.
but discobolo you are proving my point exactly. If you are having so much trouble getting B league to work, this thread is suggesting that C league be that difficult-and thats ridiculous.
completely bogus. I have quite a few great talent, young players, with good skills, that I was able to afford this season in C LEAGUE!! I guess it depends on what you think is a great talent at a bargain price. I have 2 guys right now that I have in my striker/tech/pace program, that I bought for VERY reasonable prices, and will be able to sell at a HUGE profit, with good talent, relative to C league.
but discobolo you are proving my point exactly. If you are having so much trouble getting B league to work, this thread is suggesting that C league be that difficult-and thats ridiculous.
here are the aforementioned trainees:
Bożydar Iliński
here is how I bought him:
unsatisfactory stamina, tragic keeper
very good pace, unsatisfactory defender
excellent technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
weak passing, poor striker
here he is now, a mere season later:
average stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, poor defender
formidable technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
weak passing, solid striker
I payed 52k for this guy....a fantastic bargain.
example 2:
Petrişor Moga
he started:
average stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, poor defender
weak technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
good passing, unsatisfactory striker
here he is now, again, less than 1 season later:
good stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, weak defender
adequate technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
good passing, adequate striker
this guy was injured a lot during the season, but nonetheless, I bought him for 9k!!! He is 18, and will be with my club for a LONG time, and be a great sell, when he's 22, or 23.
What I think a lot of people need to realize is that SK is not an instant gratification type of game. It is a long term commitment. I bought both of these players with the intention of keeping them for AT LEAST 3 seasons....that almost a whole year to reap the benefits of that purchase. With the amount of profits from those sales, I will improve my team dramatically.
(edited)
(edited)
Bożydar Iliński
here is how I bought him:
unsatisfactory stamina, tragic keeper
very good pace, unsatisfactory defender
excellent technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
weak passing, poor striker
here he is now, a mere season later:
average stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, poor defender
formidable technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
weak passing, solid striker
I payed 52k for this guy....a fantastic bargain.
example 2:
Petrişor Moga
he started:
average stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, poor defender
weak technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
good passing, unsatisfactory striker
here he is now, again, less than 1 season later:
good stamina, tragic keeper
excellent pace, weak defender
adequate technique, unsatisfactory playmaker
good passing, adequate striker
this guy was injured a lot during the season, but nonetheless, I bought him for 9k!!! He is 18, and will be with my club for a LONG time, and be a great sell, when he's 22, or 23.
What I think a lot of people need to realize is that SK is not an instant gratification type of game. It is a long term commitment. I bought both of these players with the intention of keeping them for AT LEAST 3 seasons....that almost a whole year to reap the benefits of that purchase. With the amount of profits from those sales, I will improve my team dramatically.
(edited)
(edited)
very true. I think my comments earlier were misunderstood. I think the solution is not to shorten the number of leagues, but strengthen the bot teams in them, for just the reason and examples ivysafety and gemineye have given. My reason is if the level of play becomes more challenging, more people will play, the leagues will populate with managed teams. remember, sokker is not just about winning games, it is also about taking time to develop players and tactics. I'm sure there are ways to strengthen the leagues that, I am guessing, would take a lot less work than recoding or developing new subroutines.
agreed. i think from the comments i'm seeing, the most upsetting thing to most of the c league managers(including me at the time) is that it basically comes down to you versus the other human in your league... some people are complaining about this... i think it helped me gauge my competition(since i knew exactly who it was) and work to beat him...
so you agree that it is frustrating to play with one human user only yet you agree with those who oppose suggested changes?
strange, very strange
strange, very strange
All you managers who are asking for a free ride out of C, what are you going to ask for when you get to B?
If you can't beat ONE stinking manager in C to get out, I can just imagine what you will be begging for when you can't beat SEVEN managers in B.
Buck up young manager and make it happen yourself instead of expecting some "Big Brother" to hand it to you without any effort.
If you can't beat ONE stinking manager in C to get out, I can just imagine what you will be begging for when you can't beat SEVEN managers in B.
Buck up young manager and make it happen yourself instead of expecting some "Big Brother" to hand it to you without any effort.
what are you talking about?! where di you even draw that extrapellation?!? i said nothing of the sort... i was drawing an exagerration by showing you what it would be like in a system with 6 human managers in a c-league for a newbie... i'm right now prmotion out of c-league is easy enough to encourage you players, having to only beat one real person should be motivation enough to get you crap together...
Easy ride?
Can you read?
All the proposed ideas are not about a free ride to the B league but about enjoying the season in the C leagues.
Some here are saying that our idea will make it to difficult to advance some like you that it will be too easy. You guys are confusing me and I do not know sometimes what to answer. I guess the reason for it is that you do not really understand what we propose.
So please read WITH UNDERSTANDING what we suggested.
I will make one more comment to clarify what we propose:
1. Increase the number of real users in the C leagues for example by reducing from 64 to 32 leagues. It will be more entartaining to play more human users and learning curve will be steeper.
2. TWO teams from every league will have a chance to qualify (either automatically or in a playoff game).
How is that a free ride? One will have to beat more human users to be first or second?
It will not be much more difficult to advance than before either cause if there is one VERY strong team in your league you will still have a chance to be second. Also Teams will be losong more so the whole C leagues will become more inteteresting.
There are cases now where there are only two human teams in a C league and they are quite good. The season is boring cause one beats the bots 10:0 and one waits for two gmes only. Only of these teams will have a chance to qualify.
Now there might be another C league with only two human users and they are both average. The season for them is still boring, they play one interesing game (they beat all the bots lets say5:0). One wins and has a chance to advance...
Now if our idea is implemented these four teams could be in one league. There would be 6 interesting games per team (increase of 200%) and two best teams could advance...
Rookies would still have a bunch of bots to beat to feel happy and some other real users who have just joined would be on a similar level.
So it would be more fair cause really better teams would take part in the qualification games but
MOST OF ALL the season in a C league would be MORE INTERESTING!
is it more clear now what we are suggesting???
Can you read?
All the proposed ideas are not about a free ride to the B league but about enjoying the season in the C leagues.
Some here are saying that our idea will make it to difficult to advance some like you that it will be too easy. You guys are confusing me and I do not know sometimes what to answer. I guess the reason for it is that you do not really understand what we propose.
So please read WITH UNDERSTANDING what we suggested.
I will make one more comment to clarify what we propose:
1. Increase the number of real users in the C leagues for example by reducing from 64 to 32 leagues. It will be more entartaining to play more human users and learning curve will be steeper.
2. TWO teams from every league will have a chance to qualify (either automatically or in a playoff game).
How is that a free ride? One will have to beat more human users to be first or second?
It will not be much more difficult to advance than before either cause if there is one VERY strong team in your league you will still have a chance to be second. Also Teams will be losong more so the whole C leagues will become more inteteresting.
There are cases now where there are only two human teams in a C league and they are quite good. The season is boring cause one beats the bots 10:0 and one waits for two gmes only. Only of these teams will have a chance to qualify.
Now there might be another C league with only two human users and they are both average. The season for them is still boring, they play one interesing game (they beat all the bots lets say5:0). One wins and has a chance to advance...
Now if our idea is implemented these four teams could be in one league. There would be 6 interesting games per team (increase of 200%) and two best teams could advance...
Rookies would still have a bunch of bots to beat to feel happy and some other real users who have just joined would be on a similar level.
So it would be more fair cause really better teams would take part in the qualification games but
MOST OF ALL the season in a C league would be MORE INTERESTING!
is it more clear now what we are suggesting???