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Subject: The "give your team the hairdryer treatm
To me it's all about the timing, I'm not against the idea at all as it makes it more fun but dropping a bomb like this in a league where the title isnt decided 2 games from the end of the season is not right...
As you say wk0 or wk7 is just perfect as it gives every other teams in the league the chance to play that new team once or twice... Even if it's once a brand new team isnt going too be much trouble if it's played wk1 or wk7...
I think the devs think it's a temporary problem and once the bot will be replaced the problem will be fixed... do you really think we're all gonna play this game till our kids put us in a home?! Your proposition helps the situation and makes it less painful for the current teams in the league. It's not only about getting people in the game it's also about keeping the ones that are playing it and devoting some times to get their team right... that's certainly going to put off some people!
This topic is going to get busy with people whining about their sponsorship going down too because of this new rule...
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As you say wk0 or wk7 is just perfect as it gives every other teams in the league the chance to play that new team once or twice... Even if it's once a brand new team isnt going too be much trouble if it's played wk1 or wk7...
I think the devs think it's a temporary problem and once the bot will be replaced the problem will be fixed... do you really think we're all gonna play this game till our kids put us in a home?! Your proposition helps the situation and makes it less painful for the current teams in the league. It's not only about getting people in the game it's also about keeping the ones that are playing it and devoting some times to get their team right... that's certainly going to put off some people!
This topic is going to get busy with people whining about their sponsorship going down too because of this new rule...
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I've posted my thoughts here:
http://online.sokker.org/forum_topic.php?ID_forum=1261&ID_topic=1470306&pg=0#new
http://online.sokker.org/forum_topic.php?ID_forum=1261&ID_topic=1470306&pg=0#new
to be fair, murter was as weak as a new side with bad players is anyway, most bot sides will be.
As for sponsorship money, it will not largely drop sponsorship money that quick, maybe a couple of k tops. This could easily happen with teams fielding 2nd string sides during the cup and then losing, lowering sponsorship money for the entire league.
I might also add, this has been happening in the lowest division anyway from the beginning of time. You can't expect a new user to wait 7 weeks max to get a new side, it's just not feasible.
I can see where you're coming from but seriously it's division 3 if it was division 2 or above I'd be a bit more concerned, but our division 3 is as good as our bottom league. Most of div 4 is bot sides anyway and if you replaced all the human sides in 4 in 3, you'd not need a 4th division as it stands, we've lost about 40 users in aggregate over the past year and a bit.
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As for sponsorship money, it will not largely drop sponsorship money that quick, maybe a couple of k tops. This could easily happen with teams fielding 2nd string sides during the cup and then losing, lowering sponsorship money for the entire league.
I might also add, this has been happening in the lowest division anyway from the beginning of time. You can't expect a new user to wait 7 weeks max to get a new side, it's just not feasible.
I can see where you're coming from but seriously it's division 3 if it was division 2 or above I'd be a bit more concerned, but our division 3 is as good as our bottom league. Most of div 4 is bot sides anyway and if you replaced all the human sides in 4 in 3, you'd not need a 4th division as it stands, we've lost about 40 users in aggregate over the past year and a bit.
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No way...
how do you explain Murter was only 2pts behind the leader of III.2 with 2 rounds to go then? Seriously if they were as strong as a new team they wouldnt be in the top3 of any DivIII league. To back this look where Uber is in my league with his new team, he's a good newbie though but he's not in contention...
I suggest you read a bit more in Sokker France, Sokker England or Sokker Freestyle and see how much people have lost in sponsorship money on saturday... it's not a couple of ks, it's more in the line of 20k for some teams... facts... so ok our leagues arent as prestigious but the drop will be more noticeable than a mere few ks.
I can see where you're coming from but seriously it's division 3 if it was division 2 or above I'd be a bit more concerned
That's exactly the problem! you big guns dont care cause it doesnt affect you, I'm glad Vivski is more open minded about it... I would have loved to FGR or Boyd getting replaced in the middle of the season and see your reaction...
Saying that our D3 is as good as our bottom league... Are you seriously thinking straight? that's a little bit disrespectful from the head of our sokker nation... please back this up I'm interested to read it :) I'd love to see how many NT prospects you get from D4 in comparison to D3...
So you think it's ok we replace a team at any point, screw sponsorship money, screw the promotion ladder and make the all thing unfair to the people that have been there for the past few seasons just to make some space for a newbie that is gonna get trashed every week-end for the first season and end up in D4 anyway... It's not 40 users you're gonna lose over a year it's more! the nwebies that are fed up to get slaughtered and the old ones that are fed up with the Devs over and over again...
Vivski's input is sensible and if it takes 7 weeks to offer a team to a newbie then so be it... I agree all the way we need more people but you cant do it by penalising the people that have been there first and contributing the game, the NT or by just paying plus every year...
It's not only sponsorship money that's affected, it will also be gate receipts soon... it will just make DivIII weaker and the gap between D2 and D3 bigger...
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how do you explain Murter was only 2pts behind the leader of III.2 with 2 rounds to go then? Seriously if they were as strong as a new team they wouldnt be in the top3 of any DivIII league. To back this look where Uber is in my league with his new team, he's a good newbie though but he's not in contention...
I suggest you read a bit more in Sokker France, Sokker England or Sokker Freestyle and see how much people have lost in sponsorship money on saturday... it's not a couple of ks, it's more in the line of 20k for some teams... facts... so ok our leagues arent as prestigious but the drop will be more noticeable than a mere few ks.
I can see where you're coming from but seriously it's division 3 if it was division 2 or above I'd be a bit more concerned
That's exactly the problem! you big guns dont care cause it doesnt affect you, I'm glad Vivski is more open minded about it... I would have loved to FGR or Boyd getting replaced in the middle of the season and see your reaction...
Saying that our D3 is as good as our bottom league... Are you seriously thinking straight? that's a little bit disrespectful from the head of our sokker nation... please back this up I'm interested to read it :) I'd love to see how many NT prospects you get from D4 in comparison to D3...
So you think it's ok we replace a team at any point, screw sponsorship money, screw the promotion ladder and make the all thing unfair to the people that have been there for the past few seasons just to make some space for a newbie that is gonna get trashed every week-end for the first season and end up in D4 anyway... It's not 40 users you're gonna lose over a year it's more! the nwebies that are fed up to get slaughtered and the old ones that are fed up with the Devs over and over again...
Vivski's input is sensible and if it takes 7 weeks to offer a team to a newbie then so be it... I agree all the way we need more people but you cant do it by penalising the people that have been there first and contributing the game, the NT or by just paying plus every year...
It's not only sponsorship money that's affected, it will also be gate receipts soon... it will just make DivIII weaker and the gap between D2 and D3 bigger...
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how do you explain Murter was only 2pts behind the leader of III.2 with 2 rounds to go then? Seriously if they were as strong as a new team they wouldnt be in the top3 of any DivIII league.
Because 5 of the 6 teams behind them are bots perhaps and have been for a while, and the other human team uses a basic default tactic against them.
As for your III league I haven't checked but I will do so. I'm not suggesting bots can't be strong but murter wasn't really that strong, it was initially but it's had several seasons now since turning bot. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't beat them comfortably.
I suggest you read a bit more in Sokker France, Sokker England or Sokker Freestyle and see how much people have lost in sponsorship money on saturday... it's not a couple of ks, it's more in the line of 20k for some teams... facts... so ok our leagues arent as prestigious but the drop will be more noticeable than a mere few ks.
Perhaps I should but I don't read French so I stay away from there, then with the other nations they have a slightly different structure from Australia. They have quite strong leagues and well established teams capable of pawning just about any new side that enters. I was simply going by Australia which has a large number of bot sides in division 3, and not a lot of users in division 4. Technically speaking, you could push all the human sides up from 4 to 3 and remove 4 and still have bots left over, hence why for Australia it wouldn't have a significant impact at 3 and 4. For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the current system for some specific countries, England being one of them, there are a few others but for countries with 3 divisions there is no change to how it worked previously, and for those with a lot of free teams available like ourselves, it shouldn't cause too many problems.
That's exactly the problem! you big guns dont care cause it doesnt affect you, I'm glad Vivski is more open minded about it... I would have loved to FGR or Boyd getting replaced in the middle of the season and see your reaction...
I do care if it doesn't affect me, but division 3 is basically our bottom division when you look at how many active users there are there and how many bot sides there are and how little human teams in 4. As previously stated we really shouldn't even have 4 divisions anymore but they don't remove a division when it gets it. Outside of the top div 3 teams like yourself the middle ranked places are about at the same level as 4. I'm sorry if I have a different opinion to you in divisional strength but that doesn't mean I don't care. I find that a very harsh call. To state it bluntly, if I didn't care about anyone else but my well being, there would be no way known I'd run competitions which take me 2 hours to work out every week, giving up my time in order to allow others in lower divisions a chance to have a player represent the NT. That's just an example. I also wouldn't try to help anyone in regards to questions they have about tactics or anything about the game. Division 2 is somewhat different to division 3 in that every side there is getting significantly higher ratings and is stronger than a new team. To see why, just do a study of the amount of times a div 3 side gets AP only to get relegated the next season, yet those top sides are still better than a newer side and have better ratings. Has absolutely nothing to do with whether I'm in division 2 or not, I'd think the same if I was in division 3.
Saying that our D3 is as good as our bottom league... Are you seriously thinking straight? that's a little bit disrespectful from the head of our sokker nation... please back this up I'm interested to read it :) I'd love to see how many NT prospects you get from D4 in comparison to D3...
To be honest, excluding the top sides of III, I get about as many updates as I do from IV, the only reason I get more from III other than the top sides is because there are more human teams there. There is a difference in 3 and 4 but it's not a major difference. When I started I can tell you now Tigermaster and krayzee had a much harder division 3 league then you've got now. The difference being is that now division 2 has been established with some stronger teams making it difficult for division 3 sides to get into division 2. We really don't even need the 4th division. I'll come back with more in a minute but it was a 1st impression and that even though 3 is slightly harder than 4, it's not that much harder to finish in a top 4 spot in 3 then in 4, the hard thing is getting 1st in 3 and/or getting to 2.
So you think it's ok we replace a team at any point, screw sponsorship money, screw the promotion ladder and make the all thing unfair to the people that have been there for the past few seasons just to make some space for a newbie that is gonna get trashed every week-end for the first season and end up in D4 anyway... It's not 40 users you're gonna lose over a year it's more!
No I don't think that at all, I'm nearly saying that in our case it shouldn't cause too much problems. In other countries where they have a larger % of long time users sitting in most of the divisions spot which are significantly better than newer teams this doesn't work very well at all and that's where you'll see the major change in sponsorship money and I don't agree with that.
It already happens at the bottom division level, so you're saying that it shouldn't even happen there? We'd never get any users at that rate because no one waits 7 weeks for an online game, they go elsewhere. It's far from a perfect system, especially in some countries where the 2nd bottom division is superior to new teams but our 3rd division is largely not superior to a new team apart from the top teams in the 1st or 2nd place in the league, so for us it shouldn't cause too many problems, I'm sure it would in others but my whole argument to date has been about us and now I'm just clarifying things a bit to say that I'm not 100% for this situation, in fact I'd disagree with it for a large number of countries. The problem is that then requires working for some, don't have for others and could introduce fairness issues.
The bottom line really comes down we don't need a 4th division like we did. For us this might work better as there's nothing worse than bashing bots for the first season, you can still do that in III. For other countries it doesn't work and I agree with you on that and it shouldn't be for that. I guess then it comes down to whether it's alright to do it for some that might benefit and others who clearly don't.
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Because 5 of the 6 teams behind them are bots perhaps and have been for a while, and the other human team uses a basic default tactic against them.
As for your III league I haven't checked but I will do so. I'm not suggesting bots can't be strong but murter wasn't really that strong, it was initially but it's had several seasons now since turning bot. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't beat them comfortably.
I suggest you read a bit more in Sokker France, Sokker England or Sokker Freestyle and see how much people have lost in sponsorship money on saturday... it's not a couple of ks, it's more in the line of 20k for some teams... facts... so ok our leagues arent as prestigious but the drop will be more noticeable than a mere few ks.
Perhaps I should but I don't read French so I stay away from there, then with the other nations they have a slightly different structure from Australia. They have quite strong leagues and well established teams capable of pawning just about any new side that enters. I was simply going by Australia which has a large number of bot sides in division 3, and not a lot of users in division 4. Technically speaking, you could push all the human sides up from 4 to 3 and remove 4 and still have bots left over, hence why for Australia it wouldn't have a significant impact at 3 and 4. For the record, I don't necessarily agree with the current system for some specific countries, England being one of them, there are a few others but for countries with 3 divisions there is no change to how it worked previously, and for those with a lot of free teams available like ourselves, it shouldn't cause too many problems.
That's exactly the problem! you big guns dont care cause it doesnt affect you, I'm glad Vivski is more open minded about it... I would have loved to FGR or Boyd getting replaced in the middle of the season and see your reaction...
I do care if it doesn't affect me, but division 3 is basically our bottom division when you look at how many active users there are there and how many bot sides there are and how little human teams in 4. As previously stated we really shouldn't even have 4 divisions anymore but they don't remove a division when it gets it. Outside of the top div 3 teams like yourself the middle ranked places are about at the same level as 4. I'm sorry if I have a different opinion to you in divisional strength but that doesn't mean I don't care. I find that a very harsh call. To state it bluntly, if I didn't care about anyone else but my well being, there would be no way known I'd run competitions which take me 2 hours to work out every week, giving up my time in order to allow others in lower divisions a chance to have a player represent the NT. That's just an example. I also wouldn't try to help anyone in regards to questions they have about tactics or anything about the game. Division 2 is somewhat different to division 3 in that every side there is getting significantly higher ratings and is stronger than a new team. To see why, just do a study of the amount of times a div 3 side gets AP only to get relegated the next season, yet those top sides are still better than a newer side and have better ratings. Has absolutely nothing to do with whether I'm in division 2 or not, I'd think the same if I was in division 3.
Saying that our D3 is as good as our bottom league... Are you seriously thinking straight? that's a little bit disrespectful from the head of our sokker nation... please back this up I'm interested to read it :) I'd love to see how many NT prospects you get from D4 in comparison to D3...
To be honest, excluding the top sides of III, I get about as many updates as I do from IV, the only reason I get more from III other than the top sides is because there are more human teams there. There is a difference in 3 and 4 but it's not a major difference. When I started I can tell you now Tigermaster and krayzee had a much harder division 3 league then you've got now. The difference being is that now division 2 has been established with some stronger teams making it difficult for division 3 sides to get into division 2. We really don't even need the 4th division. I'll come back with more in a minute but it was a 1st impression and that even though 3 is slightly harder than 4, it's not that much harder to finish in a top 4 spot in 3 then in 4, the hard thing is getting 1st in 3 and/or getting to 2.
So you think it's ok we replace a team at any point, screw sponsorship money, screw the promotion ladder and make the all thing unfair to the people that have been there for the past few seasons just to make some space for a newbie that is gonna get trashed every week-end for the first season and end up in D4 anyway... It's not 40 users you're gonna lose over a year it's more!
No I don't think that at all, I'm nearly saying that in our case it shouldn't cause too much problems. In other countries where they have a larger % of long time users sitting in most of the divisions spot which are significantly better than newer teams this doesn't work very well at all and that's where you'll see the major change in sponsorship money and I don't agree with that.
It already happens at the bottom division level, so you're saying that it shouldn't even happen there? We'd never get any users at that rate because no one waits 7 weeks for an online game, they go elsewhere. It's far from a perfect system, especially in some countries where the 2nd bottom division is superior to new teams but our 3rd division is largely not superior to a new team apart from the top teams in the 1st or 2nd place in the league, so for us it shouldn't cause too many problems, I'm sure it would in others but my whole argument to date has been about us and now I'm just clarifying things a bit to say that I'm not 100% for this situation, in fact I'd disagree with it for a large number of countries. The problem is that then requires working for some, don't have for others and could introduce fairness issues.
The bottom line really comes down we don't need a 4th division like we did. For us this might work better as there's nothing worse than bashing bots for the first season, you can still do that in III. For other countries it doesn't work and I agree with you on that and it shouldn't be for that. I guess then it comes down to whether it's alright to do it for some that might benefit and others who clearly don't.
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i agree with canceling our 4th division, seems pretty pointless to me when there's so little users. 3/8 in my league are humans, which comprise the top 3, though it'd take some time for the newbies to get used to it, i dare say it could be a better teaching curve, where they dont win the league in their first season and expect to win the div 3 title upon promotion but instead get disappointed. will also teach them NOT to use default tactics and find ways to win, if they're planning to stay anyways
Leagues with average ratings of over 30 are stronger than newbie teams. Those under that say around 27 a beginning side should be able to at least win a few games. The difference between those in 27's,28's,29's and 21's and 20's in IV isn't great. Can be caught up in 1 season, most likely 2.
Most new teams I think start at around 21-22 (will try to confirm that, could well be lower)
Edit: My 1st game average marks was 25.6 and by the time I ended up promotion I was at 30 which is roughly where div 3 sides are now.
There were really only about 5 division 3 leagues that seriously would see a new side have next to no hope of finishing top 4.
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Most new teams I think start at around 21-22 (will try to confirm that, could well be lower)
Edit: My 1st game average marks was 25.6 and by the time I ended up promotion I was at 30 which is roughly where div 3 sides are now.
There were really only about 5 division 3 leagues that seriously would see a new side have next to no hope of finishing top 4.
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Might add actually, the one thing I would strongly agree on is the timing of it, which allows some teams a massive advantage in tight leagues. I don't know any other way under this current league structure for promotion to change it such that new users get teams as soon as possible whilst maintaining the balance for teams. The system use to be much worse, the occasional side would get put into a league full of bots, the rest got slammed into the same league as other human players, so you'd have 3-4 really difficult III leagues and the rest were rather easy pickings.
Your second flow of answers is more in line with what I would have expected in the first place. So somehow i'm glad the Cometer I know is back... Not that I agree with you on this subjecty anyway :)
I just like a good argument sometimes to get real answers with a bit more body than "I'll be more concerned if..." Stating that you would be more concerned if it happens in higher division hinted you had little care about III... I just think people in III deserve a bit more credits and support as it is where the new users can be found these days. If we dont support them, they'll go...
I've benefited from your advices and still do I just think yesterday your wordings were not in line with what you actually do for the game...
I see what you mean about the difference between III and IV. An human top team in IV would be 4th or 5th in III I agree. But III is averaging something like 29 in the rating while IV is averaging around 19... not quite the same challenge... but I think we both saying the same thing with different words there.
I don't understand why they changed something that was working in the 1st place. What is wrong with spending a few weeks in IV when you start?
You get to learn the game, do mistakes that would be less costly than if you were doing them in III and in the end you promote to III anyway where you arrive with a superior ranking, get a bit of experience under your belt and fan base than if you had started there in the 1st place... and obviously you dont screw it all for the existing human teams in that league. It worked fine... there was nothing wrong with it for Australia, it's a different story I guess for other countries but the devs cant expect to manage a country with a 1000 users the same way they rule one with 100 users... it just doesnt work... different dynamics...
Getting rid of IV is not gonna solve any problem I disagree... if anything it will make things like this week-end happen every weeks... What has happen this week-end has a huge effect on the promotion table, it basically guarantee 3pts to the leader of III.2 where there was room for an upset (he was supposed to play Murter against which he drew in Rd1). Looking at it I'd say it affects the top13 of that promotion table... how unfair... I'll wait and see what are the economic effects as you're probably right saying it should be minimal since a III league holds 2 or 3 humans users anyway... it certainly wont be like in France or England where it's more 6 or 7 human users per league... but there will be one and it'll make it slightly harder economically.
Now that we're stuck with this system (I cant see why our stuborn devs would change this...) it's all down to the timing of when and where do you introduce new teams... I think Vivski's idea is good. A 7 weeks wait would be the extreme case and the average wait would be between 3 and 4 weeks I guess... it still a long time but at least it's fair for those who are already here.
I too want more human users but I certainly do NOT want them if it's going to disadvantage the whole existing bunch of users that like you are spending time to get their team right... the consequences of losing a qualification game are already big we didnt need something to make the whole process harder and unfair.
Vivski's idea is so far the only I can think of to put a plaster on this oz-unfriendly idea from the devs...
To me the ideal would be to revert to what it was as it was working just fine but I cant see that hapenning with the current dev lot.
We should try to get the new users from the admins and get in touch with them from the start to point them in the right direction. We dont seem to have a very good tutoring system in comparison to bigger nation and I think if we get that list of new users each week we can help them and at least try to get them interested in the game. This would have work with the old system and this will help making the new one less painful cause I cant see why a newbie today will find it amusing getting trashed 5-0 the first 3-4 weeks he's gonna log in... it's certainy no incentive to stay imo.
I just like a good argument sometimes to get real answers with a bit more body than "I'll be more concerned if..." Stating that you would be more concerned if it happens in higher division hinted you had little care about III... I just think people in III deserve a bit more credits and support as it is where the new users can be found these days. If we dont support them, they'll go...
I've benefited from your advices and still do I just think yesterday your wordings were not in line with what you actually do for the game...
I see what you mean about the difference between III and IV. An human top team in IV would be 4th or 5th in III I agree. But III is averaging something like 29 in the rating while IV is averaging around 19... not quite the same challenge... but I think we both saying the same thing with different words there.
I don't understand why they changed something that was working in the 1st place. What is wrong with spending a few weeks in IV when you start?
You get to learn the game, do mistakes that would be less costly than if you were doing them in III and in the end you promote to III anyway where you arrive with a superior ranking, get a bit of experience under your belt and fan base than if you had started there in the 1st place... and obviously you dont screw it all for the existing human teams in that league. It worked fine... there was nothing wrong with it for Australia, it's a different story I guess for other countries but the devs cant expect to manage a country with a 1000 users the same way they rule one with 100 users... it just doesnt work... different dynamics...
Getting rid of IV is not gonna solve any problem I disagree... if anything it will make things like this week-end happen every weeks... What has happen this week-end has a huge effect on the promotion table, it basically guarantee 3pts to the leader of III.2 where there was room for an upset (he was supposed to play Murter against which he drew in Rd1). Looking at it I'd say it affects the top13 of that promotion table... how unfair... I'll wait and see what are the economic effects as you're probably right saying it should be minimal since a III league holds 2 or 3 humans users anyway... it certainly wont be like in France or England where it's more 6 or 7 human users per league... but there will be one and it'll make it slightly harder economically.
Now that we're stuck with this system (I cant see why our stuborn devs would change this...) it's all down to the timing of when and where do you introduce new teams... I think Vivski's idea is good. A 7 weeks wait would be the extreme case and the average wait would be between 3 and 4 weeks I guess... it still a long time but at least it's fair for those who are already here.
I too want more human users but I certainly do NOT want them if it's going to disadvantage the whole existing bunch of users that like you are spending time to get their team right... the consequences of losing a qualification game are already big we didnt need something to make the whole process harder and unfair.
Vivski's idea is so far the only I can think of to put a plaster on this oz-unfriendly idea from the devs...
To me the ideal would be to revert to what it was as it was working just fine but I cant see that hapenning with the current dev lot.
We should try to get the new users from the admins and get in touch with them from the start to point them in the right direction. We dont seem to have a very good tutoring system in comparison to bigger nation and I think if we get that list of new users each week we can help them and at least try to get them interested in the game. This would have work with the old system and this will help making the new one less painful cause I cant see why a newbie today will find it amusing getting trashed 5-0 the first 3-4 weeks he's gonna log in... it's certainy no incentive to stay imo.
Your second flow of answers is more in line with what I would have expected in the first place. So somehow i'm glad the Cometer I know is back... Not that I agree with you on this subjecty anyway :)
I see what you mean about the difference between III and IV. An human top team in IV would be 4th or 5th in III I agree. But III is averaging something like 29 in the rating while IV is averaging around 19... not quite the same challenge... but I think we both saying the same thing with different words there.
The first one probably came out with the wrong message and was interpreted differently as a result. I was never trying to imply III was equally strong to IV, but that the difference between III and IV isn't as great as say II and III. The problem with the averages is a little deceptive in that a lot of the teams at the top of III have had experience in II and it was why in the 2nd post I tried to say that outside the top 1-2 teams in each III league, other teams were beatable.
I don't understand why they changed something that was working in the 1st place. What is wrong with spending a few weeks in IV when you start?
I think it had something to do with trying to keep users and that they had some evidence to suggest that players tended to stay if there were other humans in the league and not if they were in an all bot league winning every week. I still agree with you in that you spend a season in IV you then learn the game and that's the advantage of an all bot league. I'll be a lot more critical in say a season when results are known about how this new structure has worked, as currently I can see the angle they're taking but at the same time some countries it clearly won't work, like in France, England (since they had a massive spurt of users a season or two ago, most probably occupying their 2nd bottom league) etc.
Getting rid of IV is not gonna solve any problem I disagree... if anything it will make things like this week-end happen every weeks... What has happen this week-end has a huge effect on the promotion table, it basically guarantee 3pts to the leader of III.2 where there was room for an upset (he was supposed to play Murter against which he drew in Rd1).
Well this happens in the bottom league as it stands before anyway, all that's happened is it has pushed up into III now as well. The current structure of promotion can always be unfair, a single forfeit by a side which could have beaten the other side, can have massive impacts on the other 15 leagues in division 3. So can the case where 1 league has 5 human teams and another league only has 1-2 human teams. The current promotional system where it has leagues relying on other leagues make it like this.
Now that we're stuck with this system (I cant see why our stuborn devs would change this...) it's all down to the timing of when and where do you introduce new teams... I think Vivski's idea is good. A 7 weeks wait would be the extreme case and the average wait would be between 3 and 4 weeks I guess... it still a long time but at least it's fair for those who are already here.
I'm not so sure actually, we might not be stuck with it if the assumptions they've based it on don't hold. As for the timing, I agree it's far from ideal, what potentially should be done is a mailing system saying you're on the waiting list, we'll get back to you when it's either the mid season break or end of season etc. Similarly a mailing system where they could send an introduction type message with some important points would benefit.
I actually think one of the reasons we don't go so well is the fact that unless you search for 'sokker' the game won't come up on any of the first few pages on google results which is the #1 search engine used here. You look at HT and they have 1000 oceanic users, so that's probably another reason as most playing HT don't want to switch because they're already established there.
We should try to get the new users from the admins and get in touch with them from the start to point them in the right direction. We dont seem to have a very good tutoring system in comparison to bigger nation and I think if we get that list of new users each week we can help them and at least try to get them interested in the game.
That can be done, I'll get in touch. As for mentoring/tutoring systems I have strongly considered starting one but the problem I'd have is how many of our users would be willing/able to be available to take on some role there. Most have enough issues with their own team due to limited time.
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I see what you mean about the difference between III and IV. An human top team in IV would be 4th or 5th in III I agree. But III is averaging something like 29 in the rating while IV is averaging around 19... not quite the same challenge... but I think we both saying the same thing with different words there.
The first one probably came out with the wrong message and was interpreted differently as a result. I was never trying to imply III was equally strong to IV, but that the difference between III and IV isn't as great as say II and III. The problem with the averages is a little deceptive in that a lot of the teams at the top of III have had experience in II and it was why in the 2nd post I tried to say that outside the top 1-2 teams in each III league, other teams were beatable.
I don't understand why they changed something that was working in the 1st place. What is wrong with spending a few weeks in IV when you start?
I think it had something to do with trying to keep users and that they had some evidence to suggest that players tended to stay if there were other humans in the league and not if they were in an all bot league winning every week. I still agree with you in that you spend a season in IV you then learn the game and that's the advantage of an all bot league. I'll be a lot more critical in say a season when results are known about how this new structure has worked, as currently I can see the angle they're taking but at the same time some countries it clearly won't work, like in France, England (since they had a massive spurt of users a season or two ago, most probably occupying their 2nd bottom league) etc.
Getting rid of IV is not gonna solve any problem I disagree... if anything it will make things like this week-end happen every weeks... What has happen this week-end has a huge effect on the promotion table, it basically guarantee 3pts to the leader of III.2 where there was room for an upset (he was supposed to play Murter against which he drew in Rd1).
Well this happens in the bottom league as it stands before anyway, all that's happened is it has pushed up into III now as well. The current structure of promotion can always be unfair, a single forfeit by a side which could have beaten the other side, can have massive impacts on the other 15 leagues in division 3. So can the case where 1 league has 5 human teams and another league only has 1-2 human teams. The current promotional system where it has leagues relying on other leagues make it like this.
Now that we're stuck with this system (I cant see why our stuborn devs would change this...) it's all down to the timing of when and where do you introduce new teams... I think Vivski's idea is good. A 7 weeks wait would be the extreme case and the average wait would be between 3 and 4 weeks I guess... it still a long time but at least it's fair for those who are already here.
I'm not so sure actually, we might not be stuck with it if the assumptions they've based it on don't hold. As for the timing, I agree it's far from ideal, what potentially should be done is a mailing system saying you're on the waiting list, we'll get back to you when it's either the mid season break or end of season etc. Similarly a mailing system where they could send an introduction type message with some important points would benefit.
I actually think one of the reasons we don't go so well is the fact that unless you search for 'sokker' the game won't come up on any of the first few pages on google results which is the #1 search engine used here. You look at HT and they have 1000 oceanic users, so that's probably another reason as most playing HT don't want to switch because they're already established there.
We should try to get the new users from the admins and get in touch with them from the start to point them in the right direction. We dont seem to have a very good tutoring system in comparison to bigger nation and I think if we get that list of new users each week we can help them and at least try to get them interested in the game.
That can be done, I'll get in touch. As for mentoring/tutoring systems I have strongly considered starting one but the problem I'd have is how many of our users would be willing/able to be available to take on some role there. Most have enough issues with their own team due to limited time.
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The current structure of promotion can always be unfair, a single forfeit by a side which could have beaten the other side, can have massive impacts on the other 15 leagues in division 3. So can the case where 1 league has 5 human teams and another league only has 1-2 human teams. The current promotional system where it has leagues relying on other leagues make it like this.
For sure things like this can happen and we are all aware of it... the system has some flaws but why have they decided to make it worst anyway?
That can be done, I'll get in touch. As for mentoring/tutoring systems I have strongly considered starting one but the problem I'd have is how many of our users would be willing/able to be available to take on some role there. Most have enough issues with their own team due to limited time.
It happens in the US so surely we're good enough to do it too... I'm happy to help within my limits if it gives it a kick start.. I've kind of help Uber so far. I wouldnt want to speak for them but there's a few active users around that have been extremely helpful to me in my time... I'm sure some of us can get together and do something.
For sure things like this can happen and we are all aware of it... the system has some flaws but why have they decided to make it worst anyway?
That can be done, I'll get in touch. As for mentoring/tutoring systems I have strongly considered starting one but the problem I'd have is how many of our users would be willing/able to be available to take on some role there. Most have enough issues with their own team due to limited time.
It happens in the US so surely we're good enough to do it too... I'm happy to help within my limits if it gives it a kick start.. I've kind of help Uber so far. I wouldnt want to speak for them but there's a few active users around that have been extremely helpful to me in my time... I'm sure some of us can get together and do something.
OH MY GOD FFS 4 INJURIES!?!?!?!
thanks a lot mate, there goes 2 of my promising striker trainees and my newly bought DM
there goes my training plans.....
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thanks a lot mate, there goes 2 of my promising striker trainees and my newly bought DM
there goes my training plans.....
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Bad luck there. Oh well, reset next season. You'll only miss 1 week of training unless you can overcome Newcastle Titan05 to earn a quali match. If there's ever a good time to get a 20+ day injury...
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i'm gonna throw the last match now against the titans, wont have a hope of beating any div 2 sides with those injuries.... and all that lost training :(
the 20+ days injuries to my 16yo and my new player 3 minutes into his first match really stings
i think i have a right to be really pissed over this
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the 20+ days injuries to my 16yo and my new player 3 minutes into his first match really stings
i think i have a right to be really pissed over this
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Want me to dig up my old Kris Hirons thread? It will make you feel better about your injuries.
found it
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found it
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I was a bit annoyed with my GK getting injured 2 times last year and once again this year but there's a topic running on the bug/idea forum where a guy had 6 GK injuries this year!
Reading it made me happy straight away!
Reading it made me happy straight away!