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Subject: »[GD] Beginners problems
just give the newbies better starting players (what they receive now is absolute garbage) and more money (for completing the tutorial)
more attractive to new users.
1) Better user interface from mobile to desktop.
Usability. Actually mobile or desktop version are not so bad, its work, but not really intuitive : full of links/actions ... Devs need a ui designer for this not just a 'modern" fresh look.
Art direction. Not to say that avatars "cartoon style" is a big fail (many users disable avatars) ! sokker dont need to attract kids its not the target for sokker ! :) Need a more clean, simple and 'professional UI'
2) Change business model
keeping free and focus on premium users! Well 15y ago advertising was a "good option"... that"s not the case anymore in 2020^^ the web and mobile app area is full of free games and advertising !
Sokker need more 'plus' subscriptions but not by punishing free players (intrusive advertising that break UX too much, waiting minutes to watch advertising before a game..) that was (is !) a terrible strategy, but by improving the UX for all (free users and premiums !)
My two points.
(edited)
1) Better user interface from mobile to desktop.
Usability. Actually mobile or desktop version are not so bad, its work, but not really intuitive : full of links/actions ... Devs need a ui designer for this not just a 'modern" fresh look.
Art direction. Not to say that avatars "cartoon style" is a big fail (many users disable avatars) ! sokker dont need to attract kids its not the target for sokker ! :) Need a more clean, simple and 'professional UI'
2) Change business model
keeping free and focus on premium users! Well 15y ago advertising was a "good option"... that"s not the case anymore in 2020^^ the web and mobile app area is full of free games and advertising !
Sokker need more 'plus' subscriptions but not by punishing free players (intrusive advertising that break UX too much, waiting minutes to watch advertising before a game..) that was (is !) a terrible strategy, but by improving the UX for all (free users and premiums !)
My two points.
(edited)
My 10 cents about making Sokker more attractive to new users:
Priority Nr.1: Skill numbers
Show skill numbers, instead of skill names (e.g. 9 instead of "very good"). It will be much easier for a newbies at the start.
Just immagine the current situation: They have to understand the game + they have to learn many terms (e.g. individual Training, gt, etc) + they have to learn 18 words (names of skill levels) in the right order!!!
Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
Priority Nr.3: The website look
The website look, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-12 01:01:11
Those are imho 3 essential changes, that should have been done already yesterday.
(edited)
Priority Nr.1: Skill numbers
Show skill numbers, instead of skill names (e.g. 9 instead of "very good"). It will be much easier for a newbies at the start.
Just immagine the current situation: They have to understand the game + they have to learn many terms (e.g. individual Training, gt, etc) + they have to learn 18 words (names of skill levels) in the right order!!!
Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
Priority Nr.3: The website look
The website look, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-12 01:01:11
Those are imho 3 essential changes, that should have been done already yesterday.
(edited)
Hello there...
After playing Sokker for more than 12 years and having experienced everything this game had to offer I created this new account two years ago to see how life as a beginner was like in Sokker.
And let me tell you, I knew it was bad, but this bad?
Here's what I experienced:
* Poor UI/UX aka This Game is Ugly
Let's face it, even by 2005 standards Sokker wasn't really a pretty game. In 2020 new players are faced with an absolutely outdated design though. First impressions matter a lot in this business and Sokker not only isn't much to look at, it has an extremely confusing design to navigate through. New players don't want to search for hidden features, they want easy access to get where they need to be.
* No clear explanations aka Why am I Playing This?
Sokker has always been a game that doesn't tell you all its tricks and lets the community figure it out by itself. This may have been cute back in the days but as a new player I now expect to know right away what this game has to offer and why this could be fun to me. A tutorial would definitely work wonders here. Generelly speaking Sokker needs to do a better job at showing new players all the things they can do.
* Lack of rewards aka Why should I Log On?
This may be a less straightforward point. Players have been conditioned by countless games over the past few years to expect a steady stream of positive events. It's a simple yet obvious concept: if I keep winning something then I'm more likely to enjoy my experience. Now Sokker is a game that offers you 0-2 events per day (unless you're on the transfer market). I do believe that a higher amount of events would be more attractive to beginners yet I'm also aware that this slow pace is what keeps a lot of the older players around. This is a tricky game design issue: can you add more content without forcing people to do more to be good at this?
* Terrible Starting Conditions aka Are You Kidding Me?
Now on to the biggest problem new users are up against. You may remember your early days when you first signed up. You probably sold your starting squad and made some money off that and then you quickly managed to to overtake other teams just by being active.
This is what I was faced with when starting:
First sponsor revenue: 38 911 €
Total revenue from selling starting roster: less than 1 000 €
Stadium size: 3 100
Now Germany officially has 143 players. 107 of those have been playing since at least 2011, 22 started between 2012 and 2017 and the rest are new players who may or may not be active.
What this means is that you're almost exclusively playing teams that completed the developmental aspect of this game a long time ago and are literally years ahead of you...or you're playing bots with a rating of 18 points.
So I've been playing here for a little more than 2 years and I don't think I've had a single game that was evenly matched.
My experiences look like this: play in the German 4th league against 7 bots and smash all of them, get promoted to a 3rd league filled with veterans and get my ass kicked all season, go back to 4th league and rinse repeat.
And I believe this is the main reason why most new players who stick around are actually old players who started over. Who would be dumb enough to keep playing this unless it's someone who knows how fun it can be once you really get going?
Some might argue that this has partly to do with me currently being focused on increasing my club's value instead of short term success but consider this: I know what I'm doing and even after two years of focusing on training and selling my club is worth about 40 million € so I'm barely starting to be competitive. How do you expect complete newbies to have the patience it'll take them to get to that level?
After playing Sokker for more than 12 years and having experienced everything this game had to offer I created this new account two years ago to see how life as a beginner was like in Sokker.
And let me tell you, I knew it was bad, but this bad?
Here's what I experienced:
* Poor UI/UX aka This Game is Ugly
Let's face it, even by 2005 standards Sokker wasn't really a pretty game. In 2020 new players are faced with an absolutely outdated design though. First impressions matter a lot in this business and Sokker not only isn't much to look at, it has an extremely confusing design to navigate through. New players don't want to search for hidden features, they want easy access to get where they need to be.
* No clear explanations aka Why am I Playing This?
Sokker has always been a game that doesn't tell you all its tricks and lets the community figure it out by itself. This may have been cute back in the days but as a new player I now expect to know right away what this game has to offer and why this could be fun to me. A tutorial would definitely work wonders here. Generelly speaking Sokker needs to do a better job at showing new players all the things they can do.
* Lack of rewards aka Why should I Log On?
This may be a less straightforward point. Players have been conditioned by countless games over the past few years to expect a steady stream of positive events. It's a simple yet obvious concept: if I keep winning something then I'm more likely to enjoy my experience. Now Sokker is a game that offers you 0-2 events per day (unless you're on the transfer market). I do believe that a higher amount of events would be more attractive to beginners yet I'm also aware that this slow pace is what keeps a lot of the older players around. This is a tricky game design issue: can you add more content without forcing people to do more to be good at this?
* Terrible Starting Conditions aka Are You Kidding Me?
Now on to the biggest problem new users are up against. You may remember your early days when you first signed up. You probably sold your starting squad and made some money off that and then you quickly managed to to overtake other teams just by being active.
This is what I was faced with when starting:
First sponsor revenue: 38 911 €
Total revenue from selling starting roster: less than 1 000 €
Stadium size: 3 100
Now Germany officially has 143 players. 107 of those have been playing since at least 2011, 22 started between 2012 and 2017 and the rest are new players who may or may not be active.
What this means is that you're almost exclusively playing teams that completed the developmental aspect of this game a long time ago and are literally years ahead of you...or you're playing bots with a rating of 18 points.
So I've been playing here for a little more than 2 years and I don't think I've had a single game that was evenly matched.
My experiences look like this: play in the German 4th league against 7 bots and smash all of them, get promoted to a 3rd league filled with veterans and get my ass kicked all season, go back to 4th league and rinse repeat.
And I believe this is the main reason why most new players who stick around are actually old players who started over. Who would be dumb enough to keep playing this unless it's someone who knows how fun it can be once you really get going?
Some might argue that this has partly to do with me currently being focused on increasing my club's value instead of short term success but consider this: I know what I'm doing and even after two years of focusing on training and selling my club is worth about 40 million € so I'm barely starting to be competitive. How do you expect complete newbies to have the patience it'll take them to get to that level?
Priority Nr.1: Skill numbers
Show skill numbers, instead of skill names (e.g. 9 instead of "very good"). It will be much easier for a newbies at the start.
Just immagine the current situation: They have to understand the game + they have to learn many terms (e.g. individual Training, gt, etc) + they have to learn 18 words (names of skill levels) in the right order!!!
I agree
There are 3 options on how to display Skill numbers: 1, none 2, hints 3, in the skill name
I don't know which one is the default for new users (is it the first one?) but I think it should be the third option with the number
Show skill numbers, instead of skill names (e.g. 9 instead of "very good"). It will be much easier for a newbies at the start.
Just immagine the current situation: They have to understand the game + they have to learn many terms (e.g. individual Training, gt, etc) + they have to learn 18 words (names of skill levels) in the right order!!!
I agree
There are 3 options on how to display Skill numbers: 1, none 2, hints 3, in the skill name
I don't know which one is the default for new users (is it the first one?) but I think it should be the third option with the number
+1
I absolutely agree with everything you said
About the better starting conditions, I already proposed more money in the initial budget (through completing tasks in tutorial) and better starting players. These have not changed since 2004! Now imagine how the game, overall quality of players and clubs has changed since then
About the huge gap between old and new users, I was thinking about the new structure of competitions . But Im not sure if it solves the problem. It looks like boosting starting position of new users and bringing in more new users could help to solve the problem the best.
I absolutely agree with everything you said
About the better starting conditions, I already proposed more money in the initial budget (through completing tasks in tutorial) and better starting players. These have not changed since 2004! Now imagine how the game, overall quality of players and clubs has changed since then
About the huge gap between old and new users, I was thinking about the new structure of competitions . But Im not sure if it solves the problem. It looks like boosting starting position of new users and bringing in more new users could help to solve the problem the best.
+1000 Verbal_Kint
After reading the posts from "older" players it is great to read something from a "beginner" standpoint that knows both sides of the story. You are 100 percent right on all acounts and this post should be made "sticky" and / or must be carefully read by all developers...
After reading the posts from "older" players it is great to read something from a "beginner" standpoint that knows both sides of the story. You are 100 percent right on all acounts and this post should be made "sticky" and / or must be carefully read by all developers...
"My experiences look like this: play in the German 4th league against 7 bots and smash all of them, get promoted to a 3rd league filled with veterans and get my ass kicked all season, go back to 4th league and rinse repeat."
You see the problem?
Nobody told him, that players need more training, than just 1 match per week and that´s why Verbal_Kint cannot achieve bigger successes.
He things he makes everything alright, but he will never compete with experienced teams, because others train more efficient (=individual training for 1,5 or 2 matches per week), get more money because of training efficiency and so, others can have always better players, than he has.
So, I repeat my Priority Nr.2 from 2020-04-16 03:51:29
Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
---------
@ slavista (Priority Nr.1: Skill numbers)
Default is on "none"... Scandalous, not?
You see the problem?
Nobody told him, that players need more training, than just 1 match per week and that´s why Verbal_Kint cannot achieve bigger successes.
He things he makes everything alright, but he will never compete with experienced teams, because others train more efficient (=individual training for 1,5 or 2 matches per week), get more money because of training efficiency and so, others can have always better players, than he has.
So, I repeat my Priority Nr.2 from 2020-04-16 03:51:29
Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
---------
@ slavista (Priority Nr.1: Skill numbers)
Default is on "none"... Scandalous, not?
"and that´s why Verbal_Kint cannot achieve bigger successes...but he will never compete with experienced teams"
Hmm, what prompted you to make such a bold statement...without even knowing who I am and what my previous account has achieved in this game? ^^
Hmm, what prompted you to make such a bold statement...without even knowing who I am and what my previous account has achieved in this game? ^^
Hmm, what prompted you to make such a bold statement...without even knowing who I am and what my previous account has achieved in this game? ^^
I already wrote about the reason:
"because others train more efficient (=individual training for 1,5 or 2 matches per week)"
And before I wrote the statement above, I checked 2 points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Point 1: The number of the young player in your team. (Many trainees = less training = less money in total)
You have 10 players in the age of 18-22 and it's not possible to give them all maximum individual training.
E.g. Leon Przybyś[/b] (21). He has now:
weak 4 stamina, hopeless 1 keeper
brilliant 14 pace, excellent 10 defender
incredible 13 technique, outstanding 12 playmaker
adequate 6 passing, weak 4 striker
If he would get more training in your team, he could have now brilliant 14 playmaker or excellent 10 passing and you would earn 2-5 million € more.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The same applies also to point 2: The players you sold, they could progress faster, if they would get more individual training.
I took a look at Transfers - Botafogo Berlim and I sorted the players according to the highest price. Then I watched to each one of them (Achilleas Matzourakis [37092916], Ronald Hölzel [36898453], Vasilij Abazev [36592238], Costantino Agasso [36907925], Marek Stachura [36766473], Toktamış Işıldar [37025345] etc.) at their stats page (last matches - with Plus, one can see last 50 matches) and I realised, that they mostly played 1 match per week.
You would have make much more money, if you had focused on less trainees.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's why Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
On these tutrials, newbies should read at least one time, that 1 match per week is not 1 full training...
Some people may say: You can read it on the rules. Yes indeed, but the rules have more chapters and even after reading 2-3 times, one needs repetition after a time, to understand.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally one more thing, about Verbal_Kint's statement:
Hmm, what prompted you to make such a bold statement...without even knowing who I am and what my previous account has achieved in this game? ^^
Stay on the facts.
I would not give a such detailed information, if I would not care about your training abilities.
Understand? My statement is your chance to stop having the same experience everytime you promote.
I already wrote about the reason:
"because others train more efficient (=individual training for 1,5 or 2 matches per week)"
And before I wrote the statement above, I checked 2 points.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Point 1: The number of the young player in your team. (Many trainees = less training = less money in total)
You have 10 players in the age of 18-22 and it's not possible to give them all maximum individual training.
E.g. Leon Przybyś[/b] (21). He has now:
weak 4 stamina, hopeless 1 keeper
brilliant 14 pace, excellent 10 defender
incredible 13 technique, outstanding 12 playmaker
adequate 6 passing, weak 4 striker
If he would get more training in your team, he could have now brilliant 14 playmaker or excellent 10 passing and you would earn 2-5 million € more.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The same applies also to point 2: The players you sold, they could progress faster, if they would get more individual training.
I took a look at Transfers - Botafogo Berlim and I sorted the players according to the highest price. Then I watched to each one of them (Achilleas Matzourakis [37092916], Ronald Hölzel [36898453], Vasilij Abazev [36592238], Costantino Agasso [36907925], Marek Stachura [36766473], Toktamış Işıldar [37025345] etc.) at their stats page (last matches - with Plus, one can see last 50 matches) and I realised, that they mostly played 1 match per week.
You would have make much more money, if you had focused on less trainees.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that's why Priority Nr.2: Interactive tutorial
Interactive tutorial, like Charles Hill proposed at 2020-04-11 20:34:42, or slavista on thread [Idea] Interactive tutorial for beginners.
On these tutrials, newbies should read at least one time, that 1 match per week is not 1 full training...
Some people may say: You can read it on the rules. Yes indeed, but the rules have more chapters and even after reading 2-3 times, one needs repetition after a time, to understand.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally one more thing, about Verbal_Kint's statement:
Hmm, what prompted you to make such a bold statement...without even knowing who I am and what my previous account has achieved in this game? ^^
Stay on the facts.
I would not give a such detailed information, if I would not care about your training abilities.
Understand? My statement is your chance to stop having the same experience everytime you promote.
Okay, how do I say this in a nice way....
Your best result in 13 years has been a 6th place in the 2nd league and here you are, currently lecturing someone who has won the Champions Cup 3 times and has achieved the highest rating ever seen in this game...maybe stay in your lane, enjoy your efficient training and let me manage my club the way I like it?
-------------------
Now back to the regular topic, this thread isn't about me...thank you.
Your best result in 13 years has been a 6th place in the 2nd league and here you are, currently lecturing someone who has won the Champions Cup 3 times and has achieved the highest rating ever seen in this game...maybe stay in your lane, enjoy your efficient training and let me manage my club the way I like it?
-------------------
Now back to the regular topic, this thread isn't about me...thank you.
Indeed, this topic was never about you. It was about helping people to start with the game and keeping their interest alive.
Specific it was about "get promoted to a 3rd league filled with veterans and get my ass kicked all season, go back to 4th league and rinse repeat." Yes, these are your words, but it's not about you - I see often people who have the same experience, like you described.
And I also know people, who were able learn new things, to readjust their clubs priorities and they make more than 20-40 million € profit every 3 seasons, by efficient training, instead of blaming the game, or blaming in the silliest way people who tell them about what they do not realize.
Specific it was about "get promoted to a 3rd league filled with veterans and get my ass kicked all season, go back to 4th league and rinse repeat." Yes, these are your words, but it's not about you - I see often people who have the same experience, like you described.
And I also know people, who were able learn new things, to readjust their clubs priorities and they make more than 20-40 million € profit every 3 seasons, by efficient training, instead of blaming the game, or blaming in the silliest way people who tell them about what they do not realize.
Imho you are wrong tsolias.
The training difference between player playing 1 match instead of 2 per week is not big. I trained some 5x divine, and some close to it, and they always played 1 match + 1nt match sometimes. So you will always profit more from more players in training then less, but with 2 matches. Trust me.
The training difference between player playing 1 match instead of 2 per week is not big. I trained some 5x divine, and some close to it, and they always played 1 match + 1nt match sometimes. So you will always profit more from more players in training then less, but with 2 matches. Trust me.