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Subject: [change] Version 2 New Competition Structure
Great proposal! Even the beginning teams will have enough official games to maintain max training, 3 matches seems enough instead of 4. No more time losing 2 weeks like in this period.
My biggest concern was that the bigger teams would benefit the new training proposal because of their chances of having more official matches in comparison with the smaller/ newer teams. For me this gap has to be as small as possible so as the gap between teams with money, experience better players doesnt get bigger.
My biggest concern was that the bigger teams would benefit the new training proposal because of their chances of having more official matches in comparison with the smaller/ newer teams. For me this gap has to be as small as possible so as the gap between teams with money, experience better players doesnt get bigger.
I agree about the gap.
With this structure, it would be pretty small or even non-existent as there would be two official matches (bringing in maybe 90% training each - we have no idea of this number as even DEVs don't know until testing gets underways) and then either a 3rd official cup match or a friendly to make up the rest.
So at worst (without setting a friendly), you are looking at 90% vs 100% for 12 of the weeks (for half the users), 10 weeks for 25% and less than 8 weeks for the rest. But if you actually set a friendly, and most people will, it should make up for this lost 10% anyway.
Now I'd say they won't make it so you can completely make up for not having a 3rd official match, vs 2 official and 1 friendly, but this system does minimise the difference between weak teams getting knocked out of the two cups early, and the strong teams who stay in longer
With this structure, it would be pretty small or even non-existent as there would be two official matches (bringing in maybe 90% training each - we have no idea of this number as even DEVs don't know until testing gets underways) and then either a 3rd official cup match or a friendly to make up the rest.
So at worst (without setting a friendly), you are looking at 90% vs 100% for 12 of the weeks (for half the users), 10 weeks for 25% and less than 8 weeks for the rest. But if you actually set a friendly, and most people will, it should make up for this lost 10% anyway.
Now I'd say they won't make it so you can completely make up for not having a 3rd official match, vs 2 official and 1 friendly, but this system does minimise the difference between weak teams getting knocked out of the two cups early, and the strong teams who stay in longer
agree I league and National league should reduce gaps... moreover, you can have 22 spots to train 10 youngs...
I didn´t want to open a new topic so let's just call it Version 2.1 New Competition Structure. This is the collective work of many users on this forum who contributed greatly with their ideas. I would like to mention especially achmid and OLIVER ATON who came up with the core aspects of this idea.
***League:***
8 clubs in a league playing home-away system against each other, 14 rounds with play off (the same system as today only without week 15 and week 0). Play-off is played on Wednesday at week 14. Teams which don't play League Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday at week 14. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***International cup:***
The combination of league and cup system
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
Group stage
1) 8 teams in each group - they play once with each other - 7 rounds
Play-off stage
2) Teams placed 1st to 4th in group stage continue to play in Championship group competing for final 1th to 64th position and teams placed 5th to 8th in the group stage play Relegation group for final 65th to 128th position
3) The system of draws in the play-off stage is demonstrated on the picture below
8 groups create one **Isolated cup within the level. On the picture, you can see a small part of such isolated Cup with groups A B C D E F G H.
level 1- 8 groups (1 isolated cup)
level 2- 32 groups (4 isolated cups)
level 3- 128 groups (16 isolated cups)
level 4- 512 groups (64 isolated cups)
level 5- 2048 groups (256 isolated cups)
The draw of the first play-off round in Championship group is: 1st in group A vs 4th in B; 2nd in A vs 3rd in B; 3rd in A vs 2nd in B and 4th in A vs 1st in B
The draw of the first play-off round in Relegation group is: 5st in group A vs 8th in B; 6th in A vs 7th in B; 7th in A vs 6th in B and 8th in A vs 5th in B
4) Every team battles for reaching the better half of the range he is competing in the current round. A team that wins in 1-16. range in the second round plays in range 1-8. in the third round and a team that loses plays in range 9-16.
5) Every team plays 12 matches (7 group stage + 5 play-off stage) and every team reaches a certain position between 1th and 64th place at the end of the cup
6) After the play-off stage all teams at the same level are sorted by: 1) Final position in their cup 2) Points in group stage 3) Scored combined in group stage and play-off stage
7) The system of play-off is the same as in the League nowadays.
Example: In level 2 there are 256 teams in 32 groups. 8 best teams are promoted directly. Another 24 teams (9-32th place in level 2) play play-off for promotion. 32 worst teams (225-256th place in level 2) are relegated directly. Other 96 teams (129-224th place) play qualification for remaining in level 2.
8) Teams that don't play International Cup Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday week 13. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***National cup:***
The same system as nowadays. All teams in the country participate. Every round the pool of teams is reduced by half until the final. If you are eliminated from the National Cup and you don't participate in the League Cup you can arrange a friendly match.
***League cup:***
This competition is only for weaker teams who were eliminated from the National cup early. It has a smaller prestige and bonus effects on training than the National cup, but it gives users another chance to compete in the cup with opponents who are closer to their level. In the smallest countries League cups could be merged so there are enough active participants
*When you are eliminated from National Cup/League cup and you don't play any cup match next week, you can arrange a friendly. Friendlies, unlike official matches, have only minimal impact on training.
**Teams in lower levels of Isolated Cups in the International Cup can be grouped by region/continent
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***League:***
8 clubs in a league playing home-away system against each other, 14 rounds with play off (the same system as today only without week 15 and week 0). Play-off is played on Wednesday at week 14. Teams which don't play League Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday at week 14. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***International cup:***
The combination of league and cup system
level 1- 8 groups of 8 teams (64 teams)
level 2- 32 groups of 8 teams (256)
level 3- 128 groups of 8 teams (1024)
level 4- 512 groups of 8 teams (4096)
level 5- 2048 groups of 8 teams (16384)
21824 teams in total
Group stage
1) 8 teams in each group - they play once with each other - 7 rounds
Play-off stage
2) Teams placed 1st to 4th in group stage continue to play in Championship group competing for final 1th to 64th position and teams placed 5th to 8th in the group stage play Relegation group for final 65th to 128th position
3) The system of draws in the play-off stage is demonstrated on the picture below
8 groups create one **Isolated cup within the level. On the picture, you can see a small part of such isolated Cup with groups A B C D E F G H.
level 1- 8 groups (1 isolated cup)
level 2- 32 groups (4 isolated cups)
level 3- 128 groups (16 isolated cups)
level 4- 512 groups (64 isolated cups)
level 5- 2048 groups (256 isolated cups)
The draw of the first play-off round in Championship group is: 1st in group A vs 4th in B; 2nd in A vs 3rd in B; 3rd in A vs 2nd in B and 4th in A vs 1st in B
The draw of the first play-off round in Relegation group is: 5st in group A vs 8th in B; 6th in A vs 7th in B; 7th in A vs 6th in B and 8th in A vs 5th in B
4) Every team battles for reaching the better half of the range he is competing in the current round. A team that wins in 1-16. range in the second round plays in range 1-8. in the third round and a team that loses plays in range 9-16.
5) Every team plays 12 matches (7 group stage + 5 play-off stage) and every team reaches a certain position between 1th and 64th place at the end of the cup
6) After the play-off stage all teams at the same level are sorted by: 1) Final position in their cup 2) Points in group stage 3) Scored combined in group stage and play-off stage
7) The system of play-off is the same as in the League nowadays.
Example: In level 2 there are 256 teams in 32 groups. 8 best teams are promoted directly. Another 24 teams (9-32th place in level 2) play play-off for promotion. 32 worst teams (225-256th place in level 2) are relegated directly. Other 96 teams (129-224th place) play qualification for remaining in level 2.
8) Teams that don't play International Cup Play-off can arrange warm-up match on Wednesday week 13. It is arranged like friendly but it has the same effects on training as official matches.
***National cup:***
The same system as nowadays. All teams in the country participate. Every round the pool of teams is reduced by half until the final. If you are eliminated from the National Cup and you don't participate in the League Cup you can arrange a friendly match.
***League cup:***
This competition is only for weaker teams who were eliminated from the National cup early. It has a smaller prestige and bonus effects on training than the National cup, but it gives users another chance to compete in the cup with opponents who are closer to their level. In the smallest countries League cups could be merged so there are enough active participants
*When you are eliminated from National Cup/League cup and you don't play any cup match next week, you can arrange a friendly. Friendlies, unlike official matches, have only minimal impact on training.
**Teams in lower levels of Isolated Cups in the International Cup can be grouped by region/continent
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(edited)
Thanks for posting.
This has definitely been a huge community effort with some massive contributions from some users
Although I still feel the *league cup* section could be improved with a solely build continental cup, I do think the National League, International Cup and National Cup are pretty close to perfect.
A couple of ways to improve the league cup could be to have it include multiple countries based on size.
Small div 2 league cup - countries less the 40 users (ie less than 2 divisions filled). All countries of this size have their div 2 users put in one cup. They should all be similar strength as there is about the same competition to promote, and no risk of demoting.
Medium div 2 and div 3 league cup - countries between 41 and 200 users (they need a third division but can't fill it). Again, in a stepwise progression, many of these will have similar competition to promote or to demote.
Large div 2, 3 and 4 league cup - countries between 201-1000 users (need a 4th division but can't fill it).
As you can see this keeps teams of similar skill levels all together, and gives the benefit of keeping teams interested when there aren't many human users in their division. This could be a small country of 16 users who only have 4 active users in div 2, it could be a country of 50 users, who only have 10 managers in div3 but only 2 are active, or could be a country of 220, but most of those leftover 20 in div 4 are managers that have gone AWOL except for the new guy who started 5 weeks ago.
What would be good is a suggest for a div 1 league cup, to fit in to the above categories, which doesn't take too much time (as these teams will be going further in their national cup), but makes it fun for those who really carry their countries torch and keeps the country growing
This has definitely been a huge community effort with some massive contributions from some users
Although I still feel the *league cup* section could be improved with a solely build continental cup, I do think the National League, International Cup and National Cup are pretty close to perfect.
A couple of ways to improve the league cup could be to have it include multiple countries based on size.
Small div 2 league cup - countries less the 40 users (ie less than 2 divisions filled). All countries of this size have their div 2 users put in one cup. They should all be similar strength as there is about the same competition to promote, and no risk of demoting.
Medium div 2 and div 3 league cup - countries between 41 and 200 users (they need a third division but can't fill it). Again, in a stepwise progression, many of these will have similar competition to promote or to demote.
Large div 2, 3 and 4 league cup - countries between 201-1000 users (need a 4th division but can't fill it).
As you can see this keeps teams of similar skill levels all together, and gives the benefit of keeping teams interested when there aren't many human users in their division. This could be a small country of 16 users who only have 4 active users in div 2, it could be a country of 50 users, who only have 10 managers in div3 but only 2 are active, or could be a country of 220, but most of those leftover 20 in div 4 are managers that have gone AWOL except for the new guy who started 5 weeks ago.
What would be good is a suggest for a div 1 league cup, to fit in to the above categories, which doesn't take too much time (as these teams will be going further in their national cup), but makes it fun for those who really carry their countries torch and keeps the country growing
This change to the league cup also scales well with sokkes growth, as it is purely dependent on how many leagues your country can fill, and therefore the amount of competition and competitiveness required to be in each division
I like it so much, almost perfect for me.
Only i don't like idea of national league with promotions and retrocessions. For me your example is perfect without international playoff... final and stop, who win, win the cup.
and to decide which level of international cup must be the result of the national league and the series in which you play.
for the rest, is perfect, IMHO.
Only i don't like idea of national league with promotions and retrocessions. For me your example is perfect without international playoff... final and stop, who win, win the cup.
and to decide which level of international cup must be the result of the national league and the series in which you play.
for the rest, is perfect, IMHO.
thanks for the feedback
I think people would not take the International cup seriously if it depended only on the National League. There would be hundreds of international cups and people would be just randomly assigned to one of them every time. They would not have any relation to their cup or their cup rivals. I would expect many people to use it just for the training knowing that even if they end up last in the International Cup but promote in the National League, they will be playing better International cup next season anyway. I find this very discouraging
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I think people would not take the International cup seriously if it depended only on the National League. There would be hundreds of international cups and people would be just randomly assigned to one of them every time. They would not have any relation to their cup or their cup rivals. I would expect many people to use it just for the training knowing that even if they end up last in the International Cup but promote in the National League, they will be playing better International cup next season anyway. I find this very discouraging
(edited)
+1 nice! and thank you:)
For me, your proposal is perfect. Hope devs use it
For me, your proposal is perfect. Hope devs use it
I think people would not take the International cup seriously if it depended only on the National League. There would be hundreds of international cups and people would be just randomly assigned to one of them every time. They would not have any relation to their cup or their cup rivals. I would expect many people to use it just for the training knowing that even if they end up last in the International Cup but promote in the National League, they will be playing better International cup next season anyway. I find this very discouraging
I think that too
I think that too
good job
i like to have international competition for the 1st entry based on league/rank level, then season after season based on your results. I dont like these playoffs, for the league i wrote somewhere why, for the international cup again team is fighting complete season to end up 1-8place in lower division and playing against team that end up among last ones in higher division. Just saying that team in higher division had way to more chances to end up in better place and still have additional chance for playoff. Can we have version without both playoffs, at least to see options?
domestic cups for most countries will end in week 7. So in week 5 you have 8 teams in national cup and rest have chance in league cup, then league cup is not chance for lower divisions teams to win it, there can be teams that are really good, very possible from top division. I think it needs to start sooner.
General problem is the training. What type of match will give you best training possible. Is it league, international, domestic cup... Then we will also have money factor, logic would suggest that international will give you more money then league, but i would say until which point or level. Maybe without money for the first season(or more), because otherwise strong teams will earn more just based on rank.
i like to have international competition for the 1st entry based on league/rank level, then season after season based on your results. I dont like these playoffs, for the league i wrote somewhere why, for the international cup again team is fighting complete season to end up 1-8place in lower division and playing against team that end up among last ones in higher division. Just saying that team in higher division had way to more chances to end up in better place and still have additional chance for playoff. Can we have version without both playoffs, at least to see options?
domestic cups for most countries will end in week 7. So in week 5 you have 8 teams in national cup and rest have chance in league cup, then league cup is not chance for lower divisions teams to win it, there can be teams that are really good, very possible from top division. I think it needs to start sooner.
General problem is the training. What type of match will give you best training possible. Is it league, international, domestic cup... Then we will also have money factor, logic would suggest that international will give you more money then league, but i would say until which point or level. Maybe without money for the first season(or more), because otherwise strong teams will earn more just based on rank.
Just to help answer the league cup from how I read it (but could be wrong).
The league cup isn't for everyone out of the national cup, but rather for everyone within that division out of the cup.
Do Div 2 and Div 3 will have separate league cups.
BUT I could also interpret it as, all teams knocked out of the national cup, except for those in the top division (that are knocked out), participate in the league cup.
Either way, I think it probably helps fix your fears of the league cup - but there were the two possible interpretations I got from the DEV post.
The league cup isn't for everyone out of the national cup, but rather for everyone within that division out of the cup.
Do Div 2 and Div 3 will have separate league cups.
BUT I could also interpret it as, all teams knocked out of the national cup, except for those in the top division (that are knocked out), participate in the league cup.
Either way, I think it probably helps fix your fears of the league cup - but there were the two possible interpretations I got from the DEV post.