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Subject: [Idea] Merge of small countries/leagues
Well of course the game will need new managers, that’s why Devs are working (and spending money).
But in the meantime (once they have completed a general update) it is the current users who are likely to leave.
It has become very clear over time with the lack of answers from the Devs on many of the points raised by its community: The strategy is clearly to aim for a more attractive and easier to access Sokker to find new users with their well established plan, and certainly not to fix the problems raised by the players currently. Like this one in this topic.
This is a strategic mistake in my opinion, but was it possible to do otherwise? The game had become technically too old, never updated regularly for years, so we were in a situation where we would have to rewrite everything, at the risk of losing the little it had left: a small, loyal community that was desperate for changes.
But in the meantime (once they have completed a general update) it is the current users who are likely to leave.
It has become very clear over time with the lack of answers from the Devs on many of the points raised by its community: The strategy is clearly to aim for a more attractive and easier to access Sokker to find new users with their well established plan, and certainly not to fix the problems raised by the players currently. Like this one in this topic.
This is a strategic mistake in my opinion, but was it possible to do otherwise? The game had become technically too old, never updated regularly for years, so we were in a situation where we would have to rewrite everything, at the risk of losing the little it had left: a small, loyal community that was desperate for changes.
Agree with what you said, but I do think it could have been done different.
You need to keep the loyal players to attract new people. Loyal players are your "bread and butter". They are the ones that the devs can sell advertising spots with a constant supply of unique user page visits.
They are also the ones that are likely to get excited and say, hey guys, we used to play together come back and see the positive changes.
I personally brought a bunch of people back to the game just with the promise of new developers and action in the game. Unfortunately every single change went against what gives the small nations a change to have an equal opportunity, or against some unique variable that sokker has compared to other football games, and a lot of them have left already.
Thankfully I still managed to keep a couple but this is what a loyal old manager does. They also help create interest in those still around. Once an important person in a community leaves, it's a domino affect and other important people leave, which is exactly what happened to Australia in 2012-14.
An update was required to increase the revenue they were already bringing in, but the changes that have been made hurt many more countries than they help.
My hope for this game continuing in any real sense is very low because some of the big changes only help the larger nations.
What I foresee over the next few years is the NT level becoming even more so haves and have nots, a majority of countries not having enough teams to even fill two divisions, and more people not even bothering with setting line ups, changing tactics, and worst of all, not watching matches, as this is the one thing sokker had over many other football sims, and if people aren't using it because they either have no competition or because there are too many matches against the same old competition in the national league, whilst not having any developing rivalries in an international competition due to it being a cup format and not a league structure, then the devs are shooting themselves in the foot.
Sokker was dying long ago, with people sticking around in the hope it would one day be revived, instead, it's seems like it's finally being put out of its misery, albeit unintentionally and at a great cost
You need to keep the loyal players to attract new people. Loyal players are your "bread and butter". They are the ones that the devs can sell advertising spots with a constant supply of unique user page visits.
They are also the ones that are likely to get excited and say, hey guys, we used to play together come back and see the positive changes.
I personally brought a bunch of people back to the game just with the promise of new developers and action in the game. Unfortunately every single change went against what gives the small nations a change to have an equal opportunity, or against some unique variable that sokker has compared to other football games, and a lot of them have left already.
Thankfully I still managed to keep a couple but this is what a loyal old manager does. They also help create interest in those still around. Once an important person in a community leaves, it's a domino affect and other important people leave, which is exactly what happened to Australia in 2012-14.
An update was required to increase the revenue they were already bringing in, but the changes that have been made hurt many more countries than they help.
My hope for this game continuing in any real sense is very low because some of the big changes only help the larger nations.
What I foresee over the next few years is the NT level becoming even more so haves and have nots, a majority of countries not having enough teams to even fill two divisions, and more people not even bothering with setting line ups, changing tactics, and worst of all, not watching matches, as this is the one thing sokker had over many other football sims, and if people aren't using it because they either have no competition or because there are too many matches against the same old competition in the national league, whilst not having any developing rivalries in an international competition due to it being a cup format and not a league structure, then the devs are shooting themselves in the foot.
Sokker was dying long ago, with people sticking around in the hope it would one day be revived, instead, it's seems like it's finally being put out of its misery, albeit unintentionally and at a great cost
Merging smaller countries is a good idea, especially for having more competition less bots.
It always reminds me of Gordon Ramsey when talking about keeping things the same too long 'because of the few managers that have to stay' and not focussing on the way larger group of potentialy new managers, not even (really) considering that the older managers also want new improvements and a better game. (restaurant owners who can't see beyond their own limitations, and because of that can't see the benefits of new and better options, like a new menu and new design).
So yes, changes could and should have been done differently, with the risk of losing a few loyal managers. When I was staff, already a long time ago (!) I have posted all ideas that I found all over Sokker and copied these to the test server to show the DEV's, had discussions with greg too often about changes that should have been done already but never came. With some other managers spend so much time trying to get new improvements, but it was all for nothing, or almost nothing.
The disappointement is that when something finally did change, it was not done correctly. It was still not really a change, but polishing the old.
Offtopic for this item but: And even now, changes are made, but all have become way less user friendly and not that clear. Just start looking for tactic editor or finances as new manager. And looking at the 'season' page for example, I really don't understand the choices that are made to make it look like that, way to busy. And for example: match: Away result: 5-3. It was an away match so the result should be 3-5 because I won the away match. For me this is how match result should look like.
Anyway, merge small(er) countries till countries have enough managers for an own competition with at least 3 leagues (1st, 2nd, and large bottom league for new managers (and a few bots to have at least 8 teams and an even number of teams) to start in), to be ontopic :P
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So yes, changes could and should have been done differently, with the risk of losing a few loyal managers. When I was staff, already a long time ago (!) I have posted all ideas that I found all over Sokker and copied these to the test server to show the DEV's, had discussions with greg too often about changes that should have been done already but never came. With some other managers spend so much time trying to get new improvements, but it was all for nothing, or almost nothing.
The disappointement is that when something finally did change, it was not done correctly. It was still not really a change, but polishing the old.
Offtopic for this item but: And even now, changes are made, but all have become way less user friendly and not that clear. Just start looking for tactic editor or finances as new manager. And looking at the 'season' page for example, I really don't understand the choices that are made to make it look like that, way to busy. And for example: match: Away result: 5-3. It was an away match so the result should be 3-5 because I won the away match. For me this is how match result should look like.
Anyway, merge small(er) countries till countries have enough managers for an own competition with at least 3 leagues (1st, 2nd, and large bottom league for new managers (and a few bots to have at least 8 teams and an even number of teams) to start in), to be ontopic :P
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Just a reminder, when I had joined the game I was playing against bots for 8 months straight before I started playing against real teams. I'm talking about the league here and not the Cup. I was in the lowest division for a whole season where everyone was bots. Then another season in the 2nd division where again everyone was bots before finally being promoted to the top division. Not every user is going to be as patient as me.
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We all been through this and you are lucky you spent only one season in such division...
Patience and slow pace that's the beauty of sokker I do believe with new division structure at beginning people will be exited but after few missed game will have negative outcome.
Patience and slow pace that's the beauty of sokker I do believe with new division structure at beginning people will be exited but after few missed game will have negative outcome.
If you only group nations with less than 20 users, you get a league system with 400 users. That makes a very competitive system that is gonna produce some super strong teams. Now, if a break-off threshold is 25 users, you will get nations of teams with wildly different strengths. People wont be happy with that. Also don't forget that most complaints came from Australia, which has much more than 20 users. So, I can't wait to see how are Greg and company gonna pull this off :)
I guess you can make multiple federations, but it could be complicated, and I don't wanna waste my energy on an idea that nobody will give two f**ks about (except people who'll hate it). I had multiple ideas that would improve experience of users in small nations, I wanted to make a topic with all of them, but even I don't care about them anymore. It is also hard to go against opinions of devs.
What I care the most about is CC. What I expect is one rule: Every LEAGUE SYSTEM gets maximum two slots in Champions Cup.
Not every nation, every league system. There won't be bots or extremely weak teams anymore, so the competition will get better. This merge thing is gonna make my experience better, and that is what matters, to me :)
I guess you can make multiple federations, but it could be complicated, and I don't wanna waste my energy on an idea that nobody will give two f**ks about (except people who'll hate it). I had multiple ideas that would improve experience of users in small nations, I wanted to make a topic with all of them, but even I don't care about them anymore. It is also hard to go against opinions of devs.
What I care the most about is CC. What I expect is one rule: Every LEAGUE SYSTEM gets maximum two slots in Champions Cup.
Not every nation, every league system. There won't be bots or extremely weak teams anymore, so the competition will get better. This merge thing is gonna make my experience better, and that is what matters, to me :)
We definitely tried to pull Kautuk under our wings a bit because 8 months not playing human teams is way too long. If I had not played sokker before, or if my country didn't have people I already knew in it, I would have disappeared if I was him.
And I couldn't help but laugh about Australia having way more than 20 users. Many of these have fulfilled or are soon to fulfill the criteria of become bot. It was very interesting to see there was minimal growth in Australia until Australian's got involved in the forums and made it clear to other nations how much of a disadvantage it was for Australia and other small nations, when new teams are made, as they clear out the few old bots that have lots of supporters, meaning the leagues essentially becomes full of teams with the base number of supporters and therefore the base sponsorship. Once this was pointed out, suddenly Australia got even more new users who only ever logged in one the first day they joined, and never again. There were even a number of teams that ended up having at least one shared IP, but I'm sure the person who made these knew exactly this.
Of our "36 users", only 17 have logged in during the past 6 weeks (that weren't log ins from sk-admins to release players), and 2 of them only logged in for one day and are on their way to being yet another fake account started.
So Australia has 15 users total. Doing homework definitely pays off
And I couldn't help but laugh about Australia having way more than 20 users. Many of these have fulfilled or are soon to fulfill the criteria of become bot. It was very interesting to see there was minimal growth in Australia until Australian's got involved in the forums and made it clear to other nations how much of a disadvantage it was for Australia and other small nations, when new teams are made, as they clear out the few old bots that have lots of supporters, meaning the leagues essentially becomes full of teams with the base number of supporters and therefore the base sponsorship. Once this was pointed out, suddenly Australia got even more new users who only ever logged in one the first day they joined, and never again. There were even a number of teams that ended up having at least one shared IP, but I'm sure the person who made these knew exactly this.
Of our "36 users", only 17 have logged in during the past 6 weeks (that weren't log ins from sk-admins to release players), and 2 of them only logged in for one day and are on their way to being yet another fake account started.
So Australia has 15 users total. Doing homework definitely pays off
That is not my homework :)
There are many inactives in every country. Just multiply all the numbers I mentioned by 0.5, and my point still stands. What was your point? Or did you just come to say how you had a laugh?
I mentioned your country because you don't have it as bad as some other countries, and you guys are still unhappy (not saying that you shouldn't be). There are gonna be communities unhappy because they are not part of the federation. It might be you guys, or some other nation.
There are many inactives in every country. Just multiply all the numbers I mentioned by 0.5, and my point still stands. What was your point? Or did you just come to say how you had a laugh?
I mentioned your country because you don't have it as bad as some other countries, and you guys are still unhappy (not saying that you shouldn't be). There are gonna be communities unhappy because they are not part of the federation. It might be you guys, or some other nation.
I think one of the factors as to why it seems the discussion has been driven by Australia is the fact that these managers have been around since 2005/2006 pretty much with maybe a year or two out, have seen the flaws grow over that time and have raised these issues years before. I’m also one of those that were around in 2005 but I dropped out and lost my team in around 2014 due to technical and personal issues at the time. In any case I think it’s clear we’re not the only ones in this position and I think we also know there are many others in a worse situation then ourselves (in fact most of our discussions have tried to actually enhance the game for those worse off then us as well). Sure the implementation may possibly be challenging but I think if done right will give a better experience all up. I really think national cups/ national forums (eg sokker australia)/ junior nationalities should be retained as they are and the only thing that changes is the league structure which probably should include junior leagues too. Makes CC placements potentially more tricky but again something like we have now by taking the highest ranked (by league position not ranking points) league team for each country for those in merged leagues and then cup winner etc if you get 2 places. That being said I wouldn’t oppose every nation getting 2 places regardless of nt ranking.
25 I think is too low a cutoff. I think if we’re talking 12 team leagues, you’d want a sustained period with 60 users before you break away back to your own leagues. Again numbers are artificial here but I think you’d really want your top and 2nd division leagues completely full before you move away from a merged league. How big should merged leagues be is another question but I think you’d want enough that would cover the scenario that some nations pull out due to reaching a sustained threshold and are withdrawn from a merged league.
That being said, if devs think they can increase user bases through advertising and therefore not needing to introduce merged leagues then I’m all for that too (I just think that’s unlikely to change the scenario much from what it currently is)
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25 I think is too low a cutoff. I think if we’re talking 12 team leagues, you’d want a sustained period with 60 users before you break away back to your own leagues. Again numbers are artificial here but I think you’d really want your top and 2nd division leagues completely full before you move away from a merged league. How big should merged leagues be is another question but I think you’d want enough that would cover the scenario that some nations pull out due to reaching a sustained threshold and are withdrawn from a merged league.
That being said, if devs think they can increase user bases through advertising and therefore not needing to introduce merged leagues then I’m all for that too (I just think that’s unlikely to change the scenario much from what it currently is)
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Lucky you, soon in CC !
This is the beauty of playing in a small country, i am jealous !
This is the beauty of playing in a small country, i am jealous !
Well the problem don’t touch only small countries, it’s more global.
The way sokker design leagues needs not only new users but also more active users. With less and less users that mean more bots and inactive users opponent during whole seasons in leagues whatever the countries. Great challenges.
And it’s not to say that the level gap between old users and newcomers is huge, so the challenge into lower leagues or reaching higher division is really hard for new teams since there are not enough newcomers to create and fill low divisions to challenge each other’s at equal level.
Merge small countries won’t solve a global problem.
I'm sorry to say that this topic is like an Australian ego trip that points out a very real problem but only proposes a particular solution. As if the small nation clubs were the only ones struggling in this game.
The only solution is to break with the league system, and create international matches according to 'ELO' ranks following wins and losses. This is much more flexible than the league system and offers an equivalent ranked opponent and real challenge each week for all users , small or bigger countries at the same equal chance, whatever new users come in or not, and without using bots to fulfill leagues.
The way sokker design leagues needs not only new users but also more active users. With less and less users that mean more bots and inactive users opponent during whole seasons in leagues whatever the countries. Great challenges.
And it’s not to say that the level gap between old users and newcomers is huge, so the challenge into lower leagues or reaching higher division is really hard for new teams since there are not enough newcomers to create and fill low divisions to challenge each other’s at equal level.
Merge small countries won’t solve a global problem.
I'm sorry to say that this topic is like an Australian ego trip that points out a very real problem but only proposes a particular solution. As if the small nation clubs were the only ones struggling in this game.
The only solution is to break with the league system, and create international matches according to 'ELO' ranks following wins and losses. This is much more flexible than the league system and offers an equivalent ranked opponent and real challenge each week for all users , small or bigger countries at the same equal chance, whatever new users come in or not, and without using bots to fulfill leagues.
The only solution is to break with the league system, and create international matches according to 'ELO' ranks following wins and losses
Not the only solution, your solution !
Which I believe nobody wants.
Merging small countries together will make much more sense.
Not the only solution, your solution !
Which I believe nobody wants.
Merging small countries together will make much more sense.
I'm sorry to say that this topic is like an Australian ego trip that points out a very real problem but only proposes a particular solution. As if the small nation clubs were the only ones struggling in this game.
Given the amount of other small nation users that have commented on this and thought it was a great idea, this completely proves it wrong. Plus I don't know what ego trip you are talking about.
You might also want to take note, this topic was not started by an Australian.
If you would like to suggest an ELO style competition, you are welcome too, just start a new thread. And no, not all countries suffer the same as what small nations like Australia do, but most countries in the game do suffer from this. Thankfully you have a sokker country that is not greatly affected by the many issues small nations face.
Ad why is there only a particular solution proposed? Because this is an ideas thread, and this is the idea that was proposed, and it is the idea many small and medium sized nations have come to say it is a good idea. And there were even more in old threads where this kind of idea was brainstormed as well, as well as the fact I talk to a number of players from small nations, who have basically said they would like this, but they get talked over in forums, and they don't believe the devs actually see it as important, so don't bother talking any more.
So maybe all you are seeing are people from places like Australia, being a spokesperson, and providing facts and details to support claims made.
And really, in the end, the only countries who should have a say in this are the small nations. It literally has no affect on large ones. This would be different if the idea was all of sokker to be a system where based on country size and location, as you move up, you start by working your way out of your country in to the best from your continent, then to the best in a couple of regions and finally best in the world, which is a system I did come up with and worked out a lot of the issues, but could see if "merging" was too difficult for the devs, than this other system would be way too hard to implement, so the merging is a compromise.
And just as a fun fact, here are a list of countries who have visited this thread and felt it was a good idea. All of which can not fill 3 current divisions with humans, quite a few can't fill 2 divisions, and it would be even more that couldn't fill 2 divisions if the bot after 50days without login was automated.
Panamá - who created the original idea
Srbija
Bulgaria
India
Cuba
Senegal
Germany
Colombia
Nederland
Hellas
Guetamala
Canada
Eesti
Australia
Given the amount of other small nation users that have commented on this and thought it was a great idea, this completely proves it wrong. Plus I don't know what ego trip you are talking about.
You might also want to take note, this topic was not started by an Australian.
If you would like to suggest an ELO style competition, you are welcome too, just start a new thread. And no, not all countries suffer the same as what small nations like Australia do, but most countries in the game do suffer from this. Thankfully you have a sokker country that is not greatly affected by the many issues small nations face.
Ad why is there only a particular solution proposed? Because this is an ideas thread, and this is the idea that was proposed, and it is the idea many small and medium sized nations have come to say it is a good idea. And there were even more in old threads where this kind of idea was brainstormed as well, as well as the fact I talk to a number of players from small nations, who have basically said they would like this, but they get talked over in forums, and they don't believe the devs actually see it as important, so don't bother talking any more.
So maybe all you are seeing are people from places like Australia, being a spokesperson, and providing facts and details to support claims made.
And really, in the end, the only countries who should have a say in this are the small nations. It literally has no affect on large ones. This would be different if the idea was all of sokker to be a system where based on country size and location, as you move up, you start by working your way out of your country in to the best from your continent, then to the best in a couple of regions and finally best in the world, which is a system I did come up with and worked out a lot of the issues, but could see if "merging" was too difficult for the devs, than this other system would be way too hard to implement, so the merging is a compromise.
And just as a fun fact, here are a list of countries who have visited this thread and felt it was a good idea. All of which can not fill 3 current divisions with humans, quite a few can't fill 2 divisions, and it would be even more that couldn't fill 2 divisions if the bot after 50days without login was automated.
Panamá - who created the original idea
Srbija
Bulgaria
India
Cuba
Senegal
Germany
Colombia
Nederland
Hellas
Guetamala
Canada
Eesti
Australia
60 is too much. I understand why you think that is a good number, but I expect some improvements with league systems. They had a problem with the old code, so they had to make the league system 1-4-16 for every country that was reduced to 3 league levels. If they improve on that, they can make 1-1-1 or 1-1-2 system. 30 users or something around that can fill that (12 teams per league).
When it comes to CC, noooo... Federation should get the same number of spots as other standalone nations. You want more from sponsors and ticket sales? Fine, you get that in a bigger league system, but you also get more competition for those CC spots. If they still give CC to each merged nation, then I want my country to be merged as well.
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When it comes to CC, noooo... Federation should get the same number of spots as other standalone nations. You want more from sponsors and ticket sales? Fine, you get that in a bigger league system, but you also get more competition for those CC spots. If they still give CC to each merged nation, then I want my country to be merged as well.
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Thankfully you have a sokker country that is not greatly affected by the many issues small nations face.
That’s not true, or did not understand the point.
It is true that the smaller nations suffer more from the lack of challenge, dying communities and Inequity, vs bigger nations, on this point we are just agree. Clearly.
When small nations vs ‘big nation’ is a problem of inequity , ok, but is it the true problem? Active users in France re only around 80 users, is it big ? should we complain vs bigger nation too ? should I open a topic and ask to merge medium nation for inequity too? It’s absurd.
You point out a problem but not seeing the whole things.
Not only merging small nations will only shift a problem, you will never find a massive consensual solution in community for a strong proposal to the Devs…
That’s not true, or did not understand the point.
It is true that the smaller nations suffer more from the lack of challenge, dying communities and Inequity, vs bigger nations, on this point we are just agree. Clearly.
When small nations vs ‘big nation’ is a problem of inequity , ok, but is it the true problem? Active users in France re only around 80 users, is it big ? should we complain vs bigger nation too ? should I open a topic and ask to merge medium nation for inequity too? It’s absurd.
You point out a problem but not seeing the whole things.
Not only merging small nations will only shift a problem, you will never find a massive consensual solution in community for a strong proposal to the Devs…