Subpage under development, new version coming soon!
Subject: [Idea] Merge of small countries/leagues
The real issue is when a nation breaks off of the confederation.
Most of the teams would end up in leagues that have weaker competition and then they would have smaller sponsorships, and we can already see from some discussions that nobody would care about having an easier league, everyone would complain about smaller sponsorships.
Most of the teams would end up in leagues that have weaker competition and then they would have smaller sponsorships, and we can already see from some discussions that nobody would care about having an easier league, everyone would complain about smaller sponsorships.
With the merged countries, all teams would still need to keep their own nation status. As long as this occurs, it wouldn't be any harder than now to scout. There would still be country pages like now, so you could just go to ranking.
Or you could go through the merged leagues if you so wished, or use some of the XML tool available, just like people do now as many (good) small country NT players are trained overseas.
"If you merge countries, will there be a merged NT"
No, to keep the NT competition viable, and because people want to train for their own country, NT would be exactly as it is now. All the coding has in it now, is looking for country ID, so all managers and players would still have this ID attached to them.
Reviewing for all countries separately is definitely something that could be done if the DEVs wish to do.
For countries who opt out (if there are any), then it would have to be reviewed periodically (ie every 2 or 4 seasons) as they see the competition other small countries now have. I think the biggest push back (if there is one) would be more countries that are borderline with users, and that is fine at the start, as they can either start as a merged or unmerged country.
Having the carrot dangled in front to have your own country, with enough users to have competitive leagues, is a great incentive for small country users to help the game grow in their regions, as opposed to the current incentives. So this would just aide the DEVs in growing the game.
I'd much prefer to have 100 Aussie users in a competitive Australian league environment, but I also see that with so few numbers (especially so few active numbers), and seeing the boredom all the less than 10 team countries have, and talking to those users to see what they would like from the game, that this is important for keeping the very important experienced users in the game, because they are the spine to which countries grow. Once grown, and there are more Senior/experienced users in the country, than that individual becomes less important as a leader, and just important as a number
Or you could go through the merged leagues if you so wished, or use some of the XML tool available, just like people do now as many (good) small country NT players are trained overseas.
"If you merge countries, will there be a merged NT"
No, to keep the NT competition viable, and because people want to train for their own country, NT would be exactly as it is now. All the coding has in it now, is looking for country ID, so all managers and players would still have this ID attached to them.
Reviewing for all countries separately is definitely something that could be done if the DEVs wish to do.
For countries who opt out (if there are any), then it would have to be reviewed periodically (ie every 2 or 4 seasons) as they see the competition other small countries now have. I think the biggest push back (if there is one) would be more countries that are borderline with users, and that is fine at the start, as they can either start as a merged or unmerged country.
Having the carrot dangled in front to have your own country, with enough users to have competitive leagues, is a great incentive for small country users to help the game grow in their regions, as opposed to the current incentives. So this would just aide the DEVs in growing the game.
I'd much prefer to have 100 Aussie users in a competitive Australian league environment, but I also see that with so few numbers (especially so few active numbers), and seeing the boredom all the less than 10 team countries have, and talking to those users to see what they would like from the game, that this is important for keeping the very important experienced users in the game, because they are the spine to which countries grow. Once grown, and there are more Senior/experienced users in the country, than that individual becomes less important as a leader, and just important as a number
"Most of the teams would end up in leagues that have weaker competition and then they would have smaller sponsorships"
This is part of the reason it needs fixing as well, however with more users, the difference becomes less (very hard to explain over messages).
In an attempt to explain, Assume a country has 8 users, and 1 autodemotes in favour of a bot, then all sponsorship takes a hit as 1/8 of the teams add nothing, and reduces the average significantly. So you could say they are 0.125 of a team. Div 1 has 7.125 teams
Now lets say a country has 2 full divisions exactly, so when relegation/promotion happens, get bot in to the div 2. This has the same affect as above on div 2, but for div 1, you have a team that has going through this cycle a number of times, and that team has suffered the 1/8 hit in div 2, so when they promote they are approxiamtely 0.875 of a team, so when they promote, Div 1 now has 7.875 teams in it.
Expand to div 3 with the above, and your Div 1 has 7.984 teams, Div 2 has 7.875 teams per league, and Div 3 has 7.125 teams. This is where power in numbers, not strength etc. really makes a huge difference.
Now with more bots in leagues, these effects are greatly multiplied, which is why I believe you need to have two full divisions (plus some leeway with numbers increase you go through a tough of numbers), because the impart with smaller numbers, reduces significantly for each level you move up.
So whilst you are right in that the league would have weaker competition, and get less sponsorship, having the appropriate number of users before splitting off would help minimize this issue.
Obviously it still doesn't fix the issue when there are one or two very dominant teams, which is why an official International League should be in the game, but having a merged league, would also increase number of people who stick it out longer, and over time, more teams would be able to grow to help make it more interesting for those countries with one or two very strong individual teams
This is part of the reason it needs fixing as well, however with more users, the difference becomes less (very hard to explain over messages).
In an attempt to explain, Assume a country has 8 users, and 1 autodemotes in favour of a bot, then all sponsorship takes a hit as 1/8 of the teams add nothing, and reduces the average significantly. So you could say they are 0.125 of a team. Div 1 has 7.125 teams
Now lets say a country has 2 full divisions exactly, so when relegation/promotion happens, get bot in to the div 2. This has the same affect as above on div 2, but for div 1, you have a team that has going through this cycle a number of times, and that team has suffered the 1/8 hit in div 2, so when they promote they are approxiamtely 0.875 of a team, so when they promote, Div 1 now has 7.875 teams in it.
Expand to div 3 with the above, and your Div 1 has 7.984 teams, Div 2 has 7.875 teams per league, and Div 3 has 7.125 teams. This is where power in numbers, not strength etc. really makes a huge difference.
Now with more bots in leagues, these effects are greatly multiplied, which is why I believe you need to have two full divisions (plus some leeway with numbers increase you go through a tough of numbers), because the impart with smaller numbers, reduces significantly for each level you move up.
So whilst you are right in that the league would have weaker competition, and get less sponsorship, having the appropriate number of users before splitting off would help minimize this issue.
Obviously it still doesn't fix the issue when there are one or two very dominant teams, which is why an official International League should be in the game, but having a merged league, would also increase number of people who stick it out longer, and over time, more teams would be able to grow to help make it more interesting for those countries with one or two very strong individual teams
Stop thinking complex solution, its never happen.
France has less than 200 users (now), the community activity and challenges decrease over the years DRASTICALLY, but was really active few years ago (700 to 900+users). The first and only reason is that around 20% of total users are really active and challenging. I can imagine all the small nations under 10 users... They need to grow to around 700 users to reach a climax :)
The concept of competitions by nations is fine on the paper, maybe still ok for 2-3 countries now, and of course Poland... But It wasn't work when sokker was on top (in term of users) for many countries, it doesn't work today, it will never work.
We should think beyond the problem of "small nations"...
And start thinking about Merging all in one.
The real glue between national users and communities are dedicated forums, lang translation and NT teams. A GREAT work from Sokker. And we MUST keep this, that's a great UX for all users. But WTF we should keep national leagues and cups that doesn't work for a large majority of communities and users for years ? Poland is "only" 3000 users for a total of 9000+ users...
Merging all in International division leagues / international cups by divisions are :
- more challenging
- more manageable
- it doesn't hurt NT and countries communities.
(edited)
France has less than 200 users (now), the community activity and challenges decrease over the years DRASTICALLY, but was really active few years ago (700 to 900+users). The first and only reason is that around 20% of total users are really active and challenging. I can imagine all the small nations under 10 users... They need to grow to around 700 users to reach a climax :)
The concept of competitions by nations is fine on the paper, maybe still ok for 2-3 countries now, and of course Poland... But It wasn't work when sokker was on top (in term of users) for many countries, it doesn't work today, it will never work.
We should think beyond the problem of "small nations"...
And start thinking about Merging all in one.
The real glue between national users and communities are dedicated forums, lang translation and NT teams. A GREAT work from Sokker. And we MUST keep this, that's a great UX for all users. But WTF we should keep national leagues and cups that doesn't work for a large majority of communities and users for years ? Poland is "only" 3000 users for a total of 9000+ users...
Merging all in International division leagues / international cups by divisions are :
- more challenging
- more manageable
- it doesn't hurt NT and countries communities.
(edited)
That is fine for you to have your opinion on this, but I do not see this as a complex solution, in fact, it is very simple.
And sure France has dropped many users, but they still have enough to have similar competition in leagues, and lots of people to talk to in forums.
International division leagues would also be an acceptable option, and one which you should know I am for, as long as it is promotion/relegation. This would at least give one competition with appropriate competition for many small nations.
And finally to your last sentence, merging small countries actually helps NT's and country communities because people are more likely to stick around as they aren't just playing bots or a bunch of inactive managers, and actually have people to talk to in forums.
So no, no complex solutions here, just simple ones. I want to make it easy on the DEVs to do it, so it has more chance of occurring, and keeping small countries in the game is essential to the games success, in terms of numbers, plus users (as some of the small countries actually have a lot of expendable income), and keeping a strong NT competition going
And sure France has dropped many users, but they still have enough to have similar competition in leagues, and lots of people to talk to in forums.
International division leagues would also be an acceptable option, and one which you should know I am for, as long as it is promotion/relegation. This would at least give one competition with appropriate competition for many small nations.
And finally to your last sentence, merging small countries actually helps NT's and country communities because people are more likely to stick around as they aren't just playing bots or a bunch of inactive managers, and actually have people to talk to in forums.
So no, no complex solutions here, just simple ones. I want to make it easy on the DEVs to do it, so it has more chance of occurring, and keeping small countries in the game is essential to the games success, in terms of numbers, plus users (as some of the small countries actually have a lot of expendable income), and keeping a strong NT competition going
they still have enough to have similar competition in leagues, and lots of people to talk to in forums.
You think... we just throw away div.5 this season, just 2048 teams :-D
In france, if i count the number of teams changing a tactic or composition during a season, if i count the number of users writing something on forum, if i count the number of connected peoples in one day... It's around 20% of a total users. For France, a total of 60 users.
I expected that's the same for all nations. In theory, it's good and better to stay in a nation/community of 20 full active users than a country of 100 users. Of course more users, more active users...
You underestimate the problem. Small nations are about every nations except Poland ! (maybe Romania and italia are still alive communities).
I want to make it easy on the DEVs to do it
Really ? How you merge nations ? In practice. Merging with wich countries? How we redraw divisions ? Does its need communities votes for merging ? You talk and talk, distribue ideas, but not even a clear plan.
Programming requires precise actions, not fuzzy ideas.
Luxembourg is small nation of ... one user. Now what you do in practice with this ? Explain step by step what's (should) happen.
(edited)
You think... we just throw away div.5 this season, just 2048 teams :-D
In france, if i count the number of teams changing a tactic or composition during a season, if i count the number of users writing something on forum, if i count the number of connected peoples in one day... It's around 20% of a total users. For France, a total of 60 users.
I expected that's the same for all nations. In theory, it's good and better to stay in a nation/community of 20 full active users than a country of 100 users. Of course more users, more active users...
You underestimate the problem. Small nations are about every nations except Poland ! (maybe Romania and italia are still alive communities).
I want to make it easy on the DEVs to do it
Really ? How you merge nations ? In practice. Merging with wich countries? How we redraw divisions ? Does its need communities votes for merging ? You talk and talk, distribue ideas, but not even a clear plan.
Programming requires precise actions, not fuzzy ideas.
Luxembourg is small nation of ... one user. Now what you do in practice with this ? Explain step by step what's (should) happen.
(edited)
I've actually answered most of your "precise" questions here already, what my vision would be.
And compared to smaller nations, yes, I think France has much closer competitions throughout at least the top 3 divisions, and likely the 4th.
I do believe you are correct with most nations would have 20% active users, Australia is slightly more, but not much more.
I realise there is a problem sokker wide, and so do the DEVs, but the problem is a lot worse in smaller nations, because you don't have the numbers to still keep forums active, to still have competition etc. If France had the same issues, then it would be easy to get to Div 1 France, which it isnt.
So I will answer again your questions, but please, in future, go back and read solutions.
How do you merge nations? I believe doing it by region is most fair and creates generally even sized merged nations. So for Australia, it would be the Asian region, but every country keeps their country, just the competition they are in is merged.
This also answers which countries question.
How to redraw divisions? All teams that fit the merging are sorted by Ranking Points, and then added to the divisions as such. This is chosen as Ranking points takes in to consideration results, and the results against other teams (ie you lose points beating a rubbish team, but can gain points if losing to a much much better team, and then everything in between).
I don't believe community voting is required because I'm yet to have more than one or two people from small nations not agree with this
So if you read all the pages, you will find these answers already
And compared to smaller nations, yes, I think France has much closer competitions throughout at least the top 3 divisions, and likely the 4th.
I do believe you are correct with most nations would have 20% active users, Australia is slightly more, but not much more.
I realise there is a problem sokker wide, and so do the DEVs, but the problem is a lot worse in smaller nations, because you don't have the numbers to still keep forums active, to still have competition etc. If France had the same issues, then it would be easy to get to Div 1 France, which it isnt.
So I will answer again your questions, but please, in future, go back and read solutions.
How do you merge nations? I believe doing it by region is most fair and creates generally even sized merged nations. So for Australia, it would be the Asian region, but every country keeps their country, just the competition they are in is merged.
This also answers which countries question.
How to redraw divisions? All teams that fit the merging are sorted by Ranking Points, and then added to the divisions as such. This is chosen as Ranking points takes in to consideration results, and the results against other teams (ie you lose points beating a rubbish team, but can gain points if losing to a much much better team, and then everything in between).
I don't believe community voting is required because I'm yet to have more than one or two people from small nations not agree with this
So if you read all the pages, you will find these answers already
I real all pages, but sorry, any human can't seriously follow ideas distributed in several posts in several pages, in many topics :-/
If you can't make a resume or even answer a practical step by step example it is good indicator (for me) that things are not clear and... SIMPLE. And that s the case. Your are not capable to answer one practical thing and simple question : how it will works, step by step for Luxembourg ?
First step : When considering a merging? no clue in your reply, i should find the answer myself.
Second step, Merging countries... 'Luxembourg' example was a trap (im a little vicious, i know) since that nation can't merge with other EU countries region. How you automate this when no other countries in your region can't merge with you ? You randomize the nations (in same regions) that will have to merge togethers ? How the f* you determine wish countries will merge with any other particular countries?
Third step, Merging div. By ranking. Ranking is poor indicator, not really fair, but anyway let's do this... Not sure this make many users happy too to get their divisions reconfigured. Do you repeat this process every 2 seasons (more seasons, less? ) and redraw all divisions again ? Good damn i see many more angry users in leagues reconfiguration than keeping the actual (boring) system.
Your answers call for a lot of questions... your solutions brings a lot of new problems. Im sorry for you, you dont convince me about "simplicity".
If you can't make a resume or even answer a practical step by step example it is good indicator (for me) that things are not clear and... SIMPLE. And that s the case. Your are not capable to answer one practical thing and simple question : how it will works, step by step for Luxembourg ?
First step : When considering a merging? no clue in your reply, i should find the answer myself.
Second step, Merging countries... 'Luxembourg' example was a trap (im a little vicious, i know) since that nation can't merge with other EU countries region. How you automate this when no other countries in your region can't merge with you ? You randomize the nations (in same regions) that will have to merge togethers ? How the f* you determine wish countries will merge with any other particular countries?
Third step, Merging div. By ranking. Ranking is poor indicator, not really fair, but anyway let's do this... Not sure this make many users happy too to get their divisions reconfigured. Do you repeat this process every 2 seasons (more seasons, less? ) and redraw all divisions again ? Good damn i see many more angry users in leagues reconfiguration than keeping the actual (boring) system.
Your answers call for a lot of questions... your solutions brings a lot of new problems. Im sorry for you, you dont convince me about "simplicity".
All the questions you have asked are simple to answer, and some I already have answered, but I am not going to write step by step for you. If and when the DEVs want to go ahead with this, I will answer step by step for them.
In here it is pointless, because as you say, you are human and can't follow ideas.
You say there will be a lot of angry users, well, from my research in sending sk-mails, there will be a lot of happy users, not angry ones, because right now they are floundering in boring leagues.
And why would we repeat every 2 seasons? Your replies don't even make sense. If you are talking about when a country leaves, then it is no different to a bot flush.
If you are talking about when new countries enter the merged league, then there are ways around that too, as proven with so many other management games.
If you don't understand it, that is fine, but when you are asking for step by step, c'mon, you don't even put that much detail in to your ideas. I give you step by step, next you will want the code for that. So if you don't have value to add to the idea, then there is no point commenting, especially when you ask questions that have already been answered
And in regards to this:
"'Luxembourg' example was a trap (im a little vicious, i know) since that nation can't merge with other EU countries region" Given they are in UEFA according to FIFA, they could merge with other european countries, or they could be put in literally any other merged league if all european countries got too big for a merged league. It would be a lot more fun than playing 7 bots all season, or 11 bots all season in the new competition
(edited)
In here it is pointless, because as you say, you are human and can't follow ideas.
You say there will be a lot of angry users, well, from my research in sending sk-mails, there will be a lot of happy users, not angry ones, because right now they are floundering in boring leagues.
And why would we repeat every 2 seasons? Your replies don't even make sense. If you are talking about when a country leaves, then it is no different to a bot flush.
If you are talking about when new countries enter the merged league, then there are ways around that too, as proven with so many other management games.
If you don't understand it, that is fine, but when you are asking for step by step, c'mon, you don't even put that much detail in to your ideas. I give you step by step, next you will want the code for that. So if you don't have value to add to the idea, then there is no point commenting, especially when you ask questions that have already been answered
And in regards to this:
"'Luxembourg' example was a trap (im a little vicious, i know) since that nation can't merge with other EU countries region" Given they are in UEFA according to FIFA, they could merge with other european countries, or they could be put in literally any other merged league if all european countries got too big for a merged league. It would be a lot more fun than playing 7 bots all season, or 11 bots all season in the new competition
(edited)
they could be put in literally any other merged league if all european countries got too big for a merged league
So a random merged league in a random regional ?
Once again you just cant answer what's happen in a practical context.
Anyway. As other previous users have done in this topic, i just can say : good night and good luck ;-)
they could be put in literally any other merged league if all european countries got too big for a merged league
So a random merged league in a random regional ?
Once again you just cant answer what's happen in a practical context.
LOL! I literally said where they should go in the sentence before that, but it's good to see you can't read.
Good night
So a random merged league in a random regional ?
Once again you just cant answer what's happen in a practical context.
LOL! I literally said where they should go in the sentence before that, but it's good to see you can't read.
Good night
"or they could"... MUST ! ( we can 't merge in any others EU or FIFA countries ) your previous sentence is pointless.
But you know how to read.
(edited)
But you know how to read.
(edited)
Once again, you are wrong.
Some European countries Lëtzebuerg could merge with are Cymru, Andorra, Island, Belarus, Severna Makedonija, just to name a few
(edited)
Some European countries Lëtzebuerg could merge with are Cymru, Andorra, Island, Belarus, Severna Makedonija, just to name a few
(edited)
well i really think this needs to be simplified. One international division for all small countries despite continent seems enough. In sokker strength of nation do not follow RL soccer so we should not follow it as well. It will be super easy to implement games played on home country team fixture times we need to keep things as simple as possible IMO
Yeah I have no issues with this if it is the preferred option. The main thing is, get these small nations merged so they can be on an even playing field with large nations in terms of competition, forum interest, sponsorship, gate takings etc.
Just some stats if it were a single league.
If all teams with less than 40 users (62 countries) were merged in to a single league - 800 teams (4 divisions)
If all teams with less than 30 users (57 countries) were merged in to a single league - 589 teams (4 divisions)
If all teams with less than 20 users (51 countries) were merged in to a single league - 464 teams (4 divisions).
These are approximately the size of Italy, Romania and Brasil respectively.
Now for reasons I have stated prior, my personal opinion is all teams with less than 2 full divisions need to be in a merged league.
Maybe for the sake of expected growth, some way to separate in to multiple merged divisions would "grow better" (ie continent or language etc.), but it's something that could be looked at in the future if necessary, or could be done up front, because there won't be too much more difficulty in repeating the code once the first one is written.
(edited)
If all teams with less than 40 users (62 countries) were merged in to a single league - 800 teams (4 divisions)
If all teams with less than 30 users (57 countries) were merged in to a single league - 589 teams (4 divisions)
If all teams with less than 20 users (51 countries) were merged in to a single league - 464 teams (4 divisions).
These are approximately the size of Italy, Romania and Brasil respectively.
Now for reasons I have stated prior, my personal opinion is all teams with less than 2 full divisions need to be in a merged league.
Maybe for the sake of expected growth, some way to separate in to multiple merged divisions would "grow better" (ie continent or language etc.), but it's something that could be looked at in the future if necessary, or could be done up front, because there won't be too much more difficulty in repeating the code once the first one is written.
(edited)