Subject: [change] Sponsorship between countries

I'm not hiding anything. And if Raul wants them I will give them.

I can only ask so many questions to players or I won't get a reply.

Supporters, team strength, strength of leagues are all a result of getting more money initially, and therefore the money initially is important. If you got twice as much money as me from day 1, I would expect you to have a stronger side, therefore you didn't get twice as much money because you had a stronger side previously and this is your thought process.

So there is no hiding _james. Read the discussion and see just how it is. And until you actually understand what is going on, its better to stay out of it. And if you would like to find them, I have given enough information to be able to find them pretty easily. So go ahead, rather than implying that I am making this up.
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Supporters, team strength, strength of leagues are all a result of getting more money initially, and therefore the money initially is important.

Are you saying that the new Polish and Italian user were getting more money when their countries had only 20 users?

I am trying to understand the system, you are just trying to find a way to support you claims. You don't care about the supporters or the strength of the leagues, you just care about something that would indicate that the game is unfair towards you.

I am open-minded, but the data you presented means nothing. It only shows me that you are trying to support your claims, and that you don't care how much competition teams in bigger countries have.
You are manipulating the little data that you have to fit your narrative. This is very ironic coming from someone who actually accused the devs for manipulating the polls.

So you want more money from the sponsors and an additional CC spot I read somewhere.

You just forget that you don't have to struggle like in the medium size countries in order to reach the top level and stabilize.
I just spent yesterday an additional 3M€ for an old defender in order to try not getting relegated this season and I am in Ligue 2 in France. This week I just lost 30K€ sponsorship because I just got promoted and I am loosing games. My income actually is 260K€ and the fan mood is very bad.

In the small countries you can more easily train youngsters and play the CC with all the incomes related to this competition.

Regarding the comparison with your cricket game... I believe there are 3 big countries and lot of very small ones so the dev focus and the small countries is understandable. In Sokker we have 1 big countries but a lot of medium ones also so of course the focus will be rather on the medium countries.

Last thing, playing in Australia shouldn't prevent you to win the CC, the Luxembourg champion won it a few seasons ago.

Now I understand the lack of challenge for the small countries, and the best would be to merge them as already stated... An Oceania or South East Asian league for example would make sense.

"but the data you presented means nothing"

How can I manipulate this data? Are you saying, that a team, just a few months old, deserves more money than someone 2 yrs old who is successful and active?
This is a pretty easy statement to answer. And if you actually read cometers post, you wouldn't be questioning me.

The evidence here proves that is what is happening. And that is all that needs to be said.

I have given the data exactly as reported to me, by users. And it is supporting the truth behind what is happening in the game. I laugh that you don't see this when other countries with users in the 70s see this. Hell other users like Charles Hill, who comes from an even bigger country sees this, and it has been an issue for over a decade.

Keep your head in the sand, but don't you dare insult my reasoning because you can't see it, when all I do is give ideas to help improve the game and make it more fair, so that more users join the game, resulting in more real world money for the DEVs.

This new team in Poland will need more money to fight.
He will not comes directly In 1st or 2nd league.
Do you understand this point ?

Lets get the DEVs to swap our teams, I'll join Ligue 2 in France and you join Div 1 Australia, and then we can swap back in 2 years time. You will then see how much worse off you are.

I don't blame you for not seeing it because you are one of the big nations, but I do blame you for trying to downplay the issues here.

It's great you get 260 000 $ with poor supporters mood, I'm not even close to that with poor supporters mood. And that's after you lost 30 000 $. You are just proving the issues here. Agbell has more supporters than you (and even your number of supporters has artificially been raised because of those teams around you), higher ranking than you, and up until his current rebuild, rated much higher than you, but is getting paid the same in sponsorship as you. That is not fair for him, and it is the issue in the game.

I also didn't say anything about the CC, but this is you trying to pick whatever you can to try and put words in my mouth.


Merging small countries would make a big difference, because suddenly the small nations would be seen by the current game mechanics as being a large one, and this is just one of the reasons I was pushing that before this topic, because then it would stop me from having to do the research, and stating the facts, about the sponsorship problems in the game.
But the DEVs forced my hand to further point out more issues that were made during the initial coding of the game.


And even now, you are all trying to argue that the sponsorship isn't wrong despite the facts present. Despite me even showing that if it was just directly linked to the division (which wouldn't be ideal but would be a step in the right direction), you would still come out on top financially by a considerable margin.


I don't tell people in lower socio-economic positions than me how easy they could live, or tell them their struggles. I listen to them and try to find a way to fix the system that caused it to happen (even though I may not truly understand as I am more well off). And the same should be said for you here. You don't understand, but it is clear as day from the bottom. So instead of trying to protect your advantage, realise that a bunch of small nation people have been coming to speak up about multiple issues, and there is a reason for it

Wait wait. You are saying they deserve more money because they need it to fight in their national league.

But this same team who is now getting more money, can now go on a transfer market and bid on players against people who get less money. Their national team gets to be trained by people getting more money yet the national competition is meant to be a competition.

No I do not understand your point, because my second paragraph shows how ridiculous that statement is.

In a management game, you are meant to be rewarded for being a good manager, not rewarded because you signed up to a big country where there are lots of older managers, which is what is happening now.

You also forget all the extra money they get from gate takings because they are competing with other humans, and older users. This is where the extra money should come from. Not in built in to the game in the form of sponsorship

I have a fan base of 2189 and an average team rating of 60+, you are really sure that your friend has a higher rating than me ?
My fan base i earned it by trying to being competitive and playing well (I guess...) for a rather new team (3 years an half) in a very competitive environment.

Once again, Luxembourg champion won the CC some seasons ago so stop complaining and do it !
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"I have a fan base of 2189 and an average team rating of 60+, you are really sure that your friend has a higher rating than me ?"


Yes I am sure, his last fan base was: Chelsea.F.C - 2806
And all last season he rated mid 60's and on 12th Jan 2020 rated 70.5, and on 19th Dec 2019 rated 71.3

He has been playing for 15yrs, not 3.5yrs.

Also once again you aren't reading, I never said anything about CC. And a 1-off also proves nothing, it proves someone had a lot of extra cash, bought the team needed for the once off CC, and then couldn't maintain it because of the inequalities in the system.


You need to stop talking before you continue to make a fool of yourself.

Just like your statement "This new team in Poland will need more money to fight." I could say the exact same thing about small nations. They small nation will need more money to fight in the national scene as they have less users to train. And yet you would laugh at that (as you should) but it is the exact same theory

Of course you are right, as always ! :) sorry

PS : Look what you can achieve in a small country with low sponsorhip https://sokker.org/team/teamID/85826
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Oh I can achieve being a bot, leaving due to the issues in the game.
That is exactly what all us small country users will achieve unless these issues are taken seriously and resolved.

And the easiest two ways of doing this, so the sponsorship code doesn't need to be rewritten is either, as stated by a BiH user, having an International League which sponsorship is based on (the most fair way as we are all under the same league structure), or to a lesser extent, merging small nations together so they become a big nation. Not as good, but then it would be even between all countries except with Poland way out in front

And yes, I just showed you how right I was when you tried to be snarky about it, but I have actually done the groundwork to get the facts to present, and don't just try to discredit others without doing any sort of work
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My head is in the sand... Haha

I should read?
You should read, and see how what I commented in this topic of yours, "I don't know if it is fair."

I am trying to figure out how the system works and what are the implications of the potential changes.
You don't care about those things, you just want to make the game easier for you. That is why YOU are making a fool out of YOURSELF, with the ranking and the team ratings, things that have nothing to do with the sponsors.

I said it in a different topic:
I think that sponsorships are determined, in large, by the average fan base of the league.
Sponsorships basically show you how strong is the league.

How can you critique something when you put no effort into trying to understand how it works, and then be so full of yourself, it's beyond me.
If the system really is unfair, you are the biggest obstacle to fixing it.

I am trying to figure out how the system works and what are the implications of the potential changes.
You don't care about those things, you just want to make the game easier for you. That is why YOU are making a fool out of YOURSELF, with the ranking and the team ratings, things that have nothing to do with the sponsors.

Actually, as someone who actually knows him, he's not. It has nothing to do with himself. If it was, he'd be long gone by now. Just saying. He doesn't have to try and understand it because we've been doing that for over 10 years and we don't get any closer to understanding how it's determined. If we knew that, there's a start and at present there is only a handful of people here who can and then we can talk about issues. So realistically, it wouldn't be hard to make some progress here if certain people who say they care about lower user base countries were a little more transparent and opened up an area that has been a black box with the risk that it does lead to further discussions about why change is needed. The ball is really in their court. They do nothing, this debate rolls on and you lose any chance of getting new users. They open up on a tiny amount and say sponsorship is determined by all these factors and it's more heavily weighted to this factor, then we can begin to have decent discussions from there.

Alternatively, allow sides to choose where they play. I'd move my club immediately if I was given a choice but I'm not even given that.

Well, but that kind of sponsorship level is impossible to get in last country division. All results from Poland and Italy are after promotion, vs Cometer without it, right?

Wow, so short sighted. The fact that I'm better then half of them already and would be competitive against the rest would suggest that had I been placed there instead of 10 or so points behind the leader of my league at the time I commenced with like 2 rounds left suggests that if you did a direct swap, suddenly I'm the one promoted and they aren't. That's exactly my discussion I made before that you said you understood so I'm really surprised by this as so far I've done nothing but try to understand the situation. Promotions are artificial, as one could treat me as having promoted from div 3 in Australia last season (as I would have had I started there) and I'd still be on half the money. Promotion means nothing when you have 5 levels of it to our 1. We can only ever promote once, others can promote several times.

I'm open to discussions to understand the other side (I know it already though, the arguments are almost always the same) but not if we start resorting to these kinds of arguments.

Give me a side in div6 poland and within a year I'll be better off then I am here in div2 with no difference in effort. I guarantee that. I'm not asking others to have their sponsorship slashed, I'm asking for some acknowledgement of what the current formula does so it becomes easier to start decent discussions whilst also giving us smaller nations an idea of what we would need to do to give ourselves a better opportunity.

You could simulate all this yourself on test/dev servers I'm sure if you wanted to, it's not rocket science.

"You don't care about those things, you just want to make the game easier for you. That is why YOU are making a fool out of YOURSELF, with the ranking and the team ratings, things that have nothing to do with the sponsors."

Easier for myself? Even though I have pointed out how much easier it is for anyone in a bigger country. How I showed Damien that he is getting the same sponsorship as agbell even though he is less deserving in every way, even Supporters.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to take from you, or other large users, I'm trying to have small countries treated the same. And if you were actually smart, you'd realise this would actually help you too.


"I think that sponsorships are determined, in large, by the average fan base of the league."
There is no doubt average supporters are part of the equation, this has not been disputed. This has been known for many years, you aren't bringing anything new to the table. But supporters go up based on the average supporters in your league, so when you join a big country, you join leagues with lots of old users, so you get a rise in supporters faster than a small country when you join leagues with bots, and even the top division has bots.
The new team in the large country is no more deserving to get more supporters than the new team in the small country. They are no more deserving to get more sponsorship just because they joined a league that has more users, who also got their fanclub members artificially boosted when they started. This is the point that has been made over and over and over in this thread.

Sponsorship is not being given to the most deserving teams, but rather, to the biggest nations due to this constant cycle which I just said above, and have said over and over again.


"That is why YOU are making a fool out of YOURSELF, with the ranking and the team ratings, things that have nothing to do with the sponsors."

Actually directly from a DEVs mouth they said RANKING plays a significant part in it, however it appears this is not true because as I stated in the first topic, Agbell had higher ranking than all of Italy, but was getting 25% less.


Read the damn topic, stop trying to attack just because it is me. I was in this game before you ever signed up, and have been having this discussion for over a decade, and have discussed it with some of the best minds in Sokker, who most have left now.

I understand how it works, but you don't want to believe it. I understand the inequalities but you want to say there are none. You still have a lot to learn in this game, so learn to listen, do your own research and see what happens.

Again, you are not wrong about the supporters, but that is part of the reason why the forumla is unfair on small nations, as people are not given sponsorship on being deserving, they are given it based on country size. That and this whole system is a "bottom to top" model.

That is, everything has a baseline from the bottom division in a country, and then it is roughly equal for every promotion. The problem is, when your country only has 3 divisions, you get stuck at the equivalent of Div 4 Poland, of Div 3 Italy etc. It is not insurmountable but for every division you need to make up for, it is an exponential amount of difficulty and skill required to make up for. Or another way of saying it, the game is exponentially easier for a team in a larger country to compete with a top team in a smaller country. This is also why when Australia got a 4th division many years ago, everyones sponsorship money went up. Nothing else changed, just the addition of the league.


So please, keep saying I am just trying to do this for myself, but when multiple small nation users are coming out and saying there are issues, accross multiple threads, realise this is not a me thing, this is a you thing.

I'm trying to make this more fair for me. I am trying to make it more fair for you (despite how you constantly attack me whenever you see my name in the forum). I am trying to make it fair for everyone.

Many people have quit the game due to these issues. Many nations are all but dead because of them. I quit because of these issues, and only came back to reignite some friendships in game (however most left in that timeframe), but when I saw there were new DEVs, I thought, hey, maybe they will actually try to be fair and not just worry about Poland, but I am being proved more and more wrong, despite the fact I backed them up against other users all the way up until the bogus poll results. There are literally multiple posts of me trying to calm tensions with users against the DEVs where I was trying to see the best in them, but was unfortunately all thrown in my face as they are more and more Poland-centric, even moreso than the original DEVs.

So go away and come back when you have new info to bring to the table, because right now you are repeating what is already known, but are using the "EFFECT" of the inequality to try and justify the "AFFECT" of the inequality, which is backwards logic