Subject: [IDEA] New division structure after deleted divisions

Is not good enough for all the countries with less then 300 users (and the lower number of users, the less sufficient your solution is).... would be just the same almost.... look at my post at start of thread (maybe add another category=countries with over 2000 users)..... also i see no problem in many divisions, as it would just mean there is much more even leagues and it would clear the problem of bots the more...

(edited)

Is not good enough for all the countries with less then 300 users (and the lower number of users, the less sufficient your solution is)....

Actually, the number is more like 120. For the rest, the number of divisions and bots would increase. Argentina, for example, has 283 users and 399 bots right now. Hence, Statu quo is 4 divisions and 399 boots. With 1,2,4,etc we would have 6 divisions and 221 bots. Under 1,4,16,32,etc we would have 4 divisions and 141 bots.
To be precise the number of bots is minimized by your proposal in the following ranges:

9-24 users
41-56 users
105-120 users
233-248 users

In all other ranges some form of 1,4,etc achieve a lower number of bots. In Denmark, for instance, 1,4,8 is optimal right now in terms of the number of bots. Beyond 300 users the picture is the same, with less and less cases in which 1,2,4 is best. The next range, for example, is 489-504 users. In other words, 1,2,4,etc can be a good idea but only for tiny countries. It's not a matter of having an opinion, but a matter of doing the math.

Moreover, to implement this change in countries like Argentina (less than 300 users) 16 out of 32 (human) teams in second division would have to be relegated, 80 out of 128 (mostly human) teams in third division would be relegated, and 464 of 512 teams in the last division would be relegated one or two divisions at once, so some (including all newcomers) will end up playing in a deserted 6th division full of bots.

I hope the devs look carefully at how many countries would be screwed before doing anything.

Either you havent read my proposotion, or you are doing the math wrong.... in my solution, a country with 200-500 users would have less bots over your proposal in these ranges:


200-360
484-500

Meaning from 200-500, your proposal will have less bots in 124 numbers versus 176 in my proposal... also Argentina would only have 77 bots in my proposal and 141 in yours... and plz try and add the total of number of bots more in your proposal then in mine for all the numbers, and you will see how crazy more bots in yours....

So please read again

also notice, that if you decline under 200 users from that start making of divisions, in my proposal you have to go under 168 users to have less bots in yours, and if the unbelievable should happen, and you raise numbers, you would have to go all the way up to 856 users before yours is best again....

In Denmark, for instance, 1,4,8 is optimal right now in terms of the number of bots.

Yes true... but in the case of denmark, we have only had 1 team switched to highest league for the last 6 seasons, also none of these teams have stayed up for more then that single season... reason=the second highest division of our country has very few strong teams, meaning that the best winner will be the one in a division, where there is no challenge from other teams, and then we have a division where several of the teams are good, but they will always get a qualification match because they steal points from each other.... if it was 1-2-4, then it would be more fair who was promoted to highest, also our second highest division would again be hard to be in, as it is now, you only need 50 rating to stay there unless you end up in 1.03..... also our third highest division is mixed up with newcomers, training teams and not so strong managers, making the range of marks very wide, its normal that there are like this in marks= 50-45-40-30-30-22-22-22... if you made it 1-2-4, the 50-45 teams would go up in new third highest, and fight against similar teams, and the new fourth highest will also end up in much much more even teams.... so you also have to look at that for smaller countries, there is more then just bot numbers.... so that is exactly why i made my proposotion like i did... because in higher user countries, this situation is happening lower down, and there is my solution also fixing the problem, because you will have not have 64-128-256 divisions..... the problem with such solutions is that, at sometime the newcomers and training teams will enter and mix with older teams, and if the division they do that in, is so wide, it will cause this "50-45-40-30-30-22-22-22" mark situation.... if you limit the number of divisions, the 50-45 team will gather, the 40-30 teams will gather, and the 22 teams will gather....

My mistake, I took the new structure to be: 1-2-4-8-16-32-etc, but the actual proposal in the first post becomes 4x after third division, so the actual structure is 1-2-4-16-64-etc.
I still find it strange that new users will have the bigger increase factor, so they will start with many leagues ahead of them, a 4 to 1 shrinkage ratio to promote, and once in fourth division basically a wall, as the 3 top divisions will be the current top 2 divisions plus 8 lucky teams :P Still, if your numbers are correct, this structure could lead to lower bots for more/broader ranges than I computed.

The issue of league competitiveness is more tricky, though, as it is too Denmark-specific. It could be the case in other countries or not. For us, for example, the turnover between the 3 first divisions is fairly reasonable, while demoting teams to fulfill the new structure would probably put a wall between third and fourth division. Plus I don't even want to imagine how the users would react to being massively relegated to up to a 6th division - when we never had more than a 5th in the first place :P Actually, I have to check if under 1,2,4,16 we would still need the 6th, probably 5th would be enough. But this 5th division (64 leagues) will be full of bots, and the total would actually go up to 413. So slashing our last division in half is still the best option for us in the near 300 range...

I like the x2 structure the most and also it's the easiest to implement the promotion and relegation structure cause in any division you can use the same promo/rele structure. 1st goes up always, 2nd and 7th plays play-off and 8th relegates auto.
The fact was to increase the amount of promotion chances and if you use this system, you increase the amount to a maximum. Also, the difference between 2 division becomes smaller, so it's easier to work your way to the top.
The chance to relegate straight away after you promoted is getting a lot smaller, so the game itself becomes more interesting. The higher you get, the harder it is to go up, which is logical and certainly realistic as it also is irl.
But what is certain is that many new users would like that way more. The bottom division should indeed avoid bots in it, but that's not always easy. So I like the idea to implement 1 forum for the entire bottom division but with seperate groups.
And make it impossible for bots to promote to higher division than the lowest. Let the highest human team in a group play a play-off for promotion IF he's not on first place! Groups with 8 bots won't play for promotion.
Maybe another idea is to give plus members the chance to manage bot teams without the training and the transfer feature. So the same players won't get better or worse and won't age, but still the manager is able to create a certain tactic to make it more challenging for new managers so they won't win with 20 - 0 figures against every team, promote and the next season relegate again cause of the big difference in strength

Why not for your bottom div. idea ... But, a new coach wil be sure to promote if he's in a 7 bots group.
Not very interesting and motivating for sure ...

Another problem you said
1st goes up always, 2nd and 7th plays play-off and 8th relegates auto.
Not if it's a x2 structure, it's for a x1 structure
in a x2 structure:
first is directly promoted but 7th ad 8th directly down
2nd have play-off to grow up but 5th and 6th have play-off for not downing

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A new coach won't sit long in a 7 bot group, cause the first new manager joins his group...
But maybe there might be the rule that a manager cannot promote if there aren't minimum 4 human managers in his group! I don't think it is motivating for any group with bot teams in it to leave them there for the whole season when new managers might join groups without human managers. Off course, if teams become bot in higher divisions then they'll automatically stay for the rest of the season, but it is possible to place that bot in last place at the end of the season so it relegates auto. Also when it relegates, it should automatically relegate to a group with only bots in it! With that, there might be another team in a lower division who's lucky to promote when he's 2nd and another team in the same division NOT to relegate when he's 5th and a 2nd in an even lower division might make promotion, off course all without a play-off match.
The times 2 structure was indeed a foul thought, but then again, your version is also good!

Do you like this idea?
Yes 74% (111)
No 10% (15)
Just want to see 15% (23)

I hope these numbers are enough to convince DEVs to change structure :)

Up, for those who want to vote :)

ask the DEV to vote maybe ? :)

We have to propose that during a long time before to be eard i think, but we will :=)

The DEV's can't propose each country to choose your structure based in country's users choice since that to fix in 15 weeks?

I think that will be the more fun to all sokker community and will aggregate more users to the game.

Any rumors about a new structure next saison?

They will introduce in 2018