Subpage under development, new version coming soon!
Subject: »[info]Dev Diary #82: Automatic release of NT-players from
"And if country have 6 teams, guy who end up last there will stay in top league next season. Guy who ends up last in England will be 2nd league next season, which means less money from sponsors."
Except you are incorrect with this theory.
Guy who ends up last in Poland Div 1, drops to div 2 Poland, and is on over 550k sponsorship. Team who ends up last in Small country, and gets "repromoted" due to bot clean, is on 300k. This is the real sokker example so you are wrong here.
What you say would make logical sense if everything was standardised (including gate takings, fanclub members, ranking points etc.), but it is not the case.
And even if sponsorship was more (which is isn't, all the research we have done has shown this not to be the case), the country with 6 humans, will sell out, at good prices, in only 2-4 of todays 14 matches. They will also have 4+ very small attendances against the bots.
The team that relegated to Div 2 will sell out and have more attendance on at least 10 matches, and likely all 14. The average attendance in Australia brings in about 343 750 $ but the average attendance in Poland div 2 is more like 625 000 $ so even if the Aus team got 31 250 $ more per week sponsorship (which again, evidence shows it is not the case), they would end up with 62 500 $ more per fortnight from sponsorship, but 281 250 $ less per fortnight in gate takings, so would still be down 218 750 $ per fortnight.
When you are getting less money, your team cannot improve as much or as fast, which is why very young teams in the large countries can be rating in the 50's and 60's very quickly. It all starts with the unfair distribution of money, which allows them to buy better players, which means they get more money, so they buy better again and so on and so forth.
tcd_uk, who comes from a similar sized country as yours, sees this issue, so hopefully you can too. I know what you are saying may seem logical, but it is not how it works in the sokker system, and even if it did work that way, I have already proven how other factors mitigate this supposed "advantage".
"much easier to beat with u18 team."
This shows how much advantage you have with money. No team in Australia or any small nation, can afford an U18 team that rates 40+ points.
"What if we made domestic league and domestic cup in 2nd focus, and we made more focus on international competition, saying that money from sponsors will come based on international competition and domestic is less important for money, but important for history, for national teams and so on"
This is spot on and the only 100% fair way to do it. They already want 3 matches a week, so if there was a national, international and a 3rd match of some sort, then every team could compete in International and National with their firsts, and then use trainees in the 3rd match. But the best part about it, the user gets to decide if this is how they want to run their team, they aren't forced to do this. Maybe they think their team would be better off with another combination, then they are free to do so, and that is called MANAGEMENT!. This is a MANAGEMENT game, let people manage and try to find ways to get a little (fair) edge over their competition
(edited)
Except you are incorrect with this theory.
Guy who ends up last in Poland Div 1, drops to div 2 Poland, and is on over 550k sponsorship. Team who ends up last in Small country, and gets "repromoted" due to bot clean, is on 300k. This is the real sokker example so you are wrong here.
What you say would make logical sense if everything was standardised (including gate takings, fanclub members, ranking points etc.), but it is not the case.
And even if sponsorship was more (which is isn't, all the research we have done has shown this not to be the case), the country with 6 humans, will sell out, at good prices, in only 2-4 of todays 14 matches. They will also have 4+ very small attendances against the bots.
The team that relegated to Div 2 will sell out and have more attendance on at least 10 matches, and likely all 14. The average attendance in Australia brings in about 343 750 $ but the average attendance in Poland div 2 is more like 625 000 $ so even if the Aus team got 31 250 $ more per week sponsorship (which again, evidence shows it is not the case), they would end up with 62 500 $ more per fortnight from sponsorship, but 281 250 $ less per fortnight in gate takings, so would still be down 218 750 $ per fortnight.
When you are getting less money, your team cannot improve as much or as fast, which is why very young teams in the large countries can be rating in the 50's and 60's very quickly. It all starts with the unfair distribution of money, which allows them to buy better players, which means they get more money, so they buy better again and so on and so forth.
tcd_uk, who comes from a similar sized country as yours, sees this issue, so hopefully you can too. I know what you are saying may seem logical, but it is not how it works in the sokker system, and even if it did work that way, I have already proven how other factors mitigate this supposed "advantage".
"much easier to beat with u18 team."
This shows how much advantage you have with money. No team in Australia or any small nation, can afford an U18 team that rates 40+ points.
"What if we made domestic league and domestic cup in 2nd focus, and we made more focus on international competition, saying that money from sponsors will come based on international competition and domestic is less important for money, but important for history, for national teams and so on"
This is spot on and the only 100% fair way to do it. They already want 3 matches a week, so if there was a national, international and a 3rd match of some sort, then every team could compete in International and National with their firsts, and then use trainees in the 3rd match. But the best part about it, the user gets to decide if this is how they want to run their team, they aren't forced to do this. Maybe they think their team would be better off with another combination, then they are free to do so, and that is called MANAGEMENT!. This is a MANAGEMENT game, let people manage and try to find ways to get a little (fair) edge over their competition
(edited)
Agree, it’s a bug and it will be added to list, I dont know how time consuming it is. Maybe its another point for general update, but if its easy then we will try to fix it faster.
about u18, if australia have 6 users total and situation as it is now all of them in top league, with average marks they now have. You for example have young u18 or u20 team, that can have average mark 30-35... Now these humans beats you, but also 2 bot teams can beat you and you end up last place. Next season you should be in 2nd level, but you get wild card and you replace one of these 2 bot teams. Its what i was saying.
Abotu sponsorship, i know that guy from poland 3rd level gets more then you or me in top level and its not fair, but i have much more competition to stay in top league, so more money on salaries then country with 6 users. Or we forget you and me, we can speak about newbie in "6 users"country and my country. One can go to top league when season start other if somehow gets promoted in 2nd league, probably will go back in 3rd division since 2nd league is hard for new guy.
Im saying all of this more in matter how sokker deals with sponsorship. I know talking about it is healty, we can agree on some points on some other we dont, but idea can be born that way. Like we agreed on last point.
If we make international competition as base for all, then it will be much fair for all of us. Make sokker nation to be one nation, and then you have national leagues to be next level. Make national competion more handy to number of users in nations. Im sure many managers in Poland will sign immediately to expand Poland league to 20 teams. What a season that would be... On the other hand, that not the best competition for Bosnia, England or Australia, but give us then 8 teams in league. Give to Spain 12 teams, give to Italy 16. Now someone can already say its not fair that guy from Poland gets all those home matches, but we can adopt to this, we can say Polska can play only one round of matches, or we can say match attendance in league will be much lower then international competion, so it doesnt really matter (lower like its friendly match). But all of this need to have support from top managment our DEVs so if they want to see it like this its big revolution then.
Abotu sponsorship, i know that guy from poland 3rd level gets more then you or me in top level and its not fair, but i have much more competition to stay in top league, so more money on salaries then country with 6 users. Or we forget you and me, we can speak about newbie in "6 users"country and my country. One can go to top league when season start other if somehow gets promoted in 2nd league, probably will go back in 3rd division since 2nd league is hard for new guy.
Im saying all of this more in matter how sokker deals with sponsorship. I know talking about it is healty, we can agree on some points on some other we dont, but idea can be born that way. Like we agreed on last point.
If we make international competition as base for all, then it will be much fair for all of us. Make sokker nation to be one nation, and then you have national leagues to be next level. Make national competion more handy to number of users in nations. Im sure many managers in Poland will sign immediately to expand Poland league to 20 teams. What a season that would be... On the other hand, that not the best competition for Bosnia, England or Australia, but give us then 8 teams in league. Give to Spain 12 teams, give to Italy 16. Now someone can already say its not fair that guy from Poland gets all those home matches, but we can adopt to this, we can say Polska can play only one round of matches, or we can say match attendance in league will be much lower then international competion, so it doesnt really matter (lower like its friendly match). But all of this need to have support from top managment our DEVs so if they want to see it like this its big revolution then.
I think I've said all that needs to be said with your first 3 paragraphs. With the exception of being able to be in the top division for a small country, there are no other benefits, financially or competitively for the small nation. I have proven this in other threads, and continue to do so.
But yes, if the DEVs actually took notice and stopped trying to defend what is known to be a bias system at best, a corrupt one at worst, then it could easily be fixed in a fair way for everyone.
The International League being what sponsorship is based off would be the 100% most fair way. No argument, and everyone would enjoy the competition as all leagues would be close, and all matches close.
But there are also other ways it can be made to be more even (not 100% fair but a lot better than the current system), and one way to to bring all small countries together, therefore meaning all the calculations etc. are as if they were a big country. I think it is for this reason they are so reluctant to do so, they like having Poland at #1 and half a dozen european nations near the top, and everyone else struggling because of how poor the system is.
We are only trying to make things fair, not trying to get an advantage, but keep getting talked too, and questioned, as if we are the criminals, or making stuff up, and regardless of what evidence we give, constantly talked too like we are the bad guys.
The more this happens, the more distrusts circulates in the community and discord forum, and the more people talk about leaving.
I don't want people to leave, I want this game to succeed, but I completely understand the feeling of wanting to leave, and without experienced heads helping out new guys, or talking the game up, then the game dies regardless of what effort is made in the future (ie. new people don't want to join inactive leagues, they want more experienced people from their country to talk too, so if this doesn't exist, all small countries die, leaving 12-16 countries in the game. Not only is this not enough to even have a world cup, but the current ranked 10-16 enjoy being some of the best ranked nations in the game, but once the rest decide they will go to a more fair game, then those countries will be the worst ones in the game, which they won't like, and will start dropping off).
It's a slippery slope, and this up coming change is the perfect opportunity to fix these issues. But if it doesn't happen, it's a long way down. They have already lost 63,000 users (87% of users), and yet still not taking it seriously the inequalities in the game (which is just one, but one big factor why 58 of the 98 nations don't grow in number).
Any game can exist for 15yrs if you keep paying the server bill, an it could last 15 more if they want to pay the server bill, but that doesn't mean it will be successful as numbers will just keep falling.
I posted the forum post from the other game I play who realised there were inequalities in the system (unintentional but they existed) and they have taken steps to fix this. That is what leaders do. And that is what I expect from the DEVs in this game.
But yes, if the DEVs actually took notice and stopped trying to defend what is known to be a bias system at best, a corrupt one at worst, then it could easily be fixed in a fair way for everyone.
The International League being what sponsorship is based off would be the 100% most fair way. No argument, and everyone would enjoy the competition as all leagues would be close, and all matches close.
But there are also other ways it can be made to be more even (not 100% fair but a lot better than the current system), and one way to to bring all small countries together, therefore meaning all the calculations etc. are as if they were a big country. I think it is for this reason they are so reluctant to do so, they like having Poland at #1 and half a dozen european nations near the top, and everyone else struggling because of how poor the system is.
We are only trying to make things fair, not trying to get an advantage, but keep getting talked too, and questioned, as if we are the criminals, or making stuff up, and regardless of what evidence we give, constantly talked too like we are the bad guys.
The more this happens, the more distrusts circulates in the community and discord forum, and the more people talk about leaving.
I don't want people to leave, I want this game to succeed, but I completely understand the feeling of wanting to leave, and without experienced heads helping out new guys, or talking the game up, then the game dies regardless of what effort is made in the future (ie. new people don't want to join inactive leagues, they want more experienced people from their country to talk too, so if this doesn't exist, all small countries die, leaving 12-16 countries in the game. Not only is this not enough to even have a world cup, but the current ranked 10-16 enjoy being some of the best ranked nations in the game, but once the rest decide they will go to a more fair game, then those countries will be the worst ones in the game, which they won't like, and will start dropping off).
It's a slippery slope, and this up coming change is the perfect opportunity to fix these issues. But if it doesn't happen, it's a long way down. They have already lost 63,000 users (87% of users), and yet still not taking it seriously the inequalities in the game (which is just one, but one big factor why 58 of the 98 nations don't grow in number).
Any game can exist for 15yrs if you keep paying the server bill, an it could last 15 more if they want to pay the server bill, but that doesn't mean it will be successful as numbers will just keep falling.
I posted the forum post from the other game I play who realised there were inequalities in the system (unintentional but they existed) and they have taken steps to fix this. That is what leaders do. And that is what I expect from the DEVs in this game.
Raúl, what about offsides?
For example in my arcade today there was an offside in the goal, and in my league happened the same on Sunday. And I have seen It many times.
it's true that it works well but sometimes it has some bugs very remarkable. Is it possible to correct It?
Maybe when it is rewritten, it would be possible...It's essential for tactics.
(edited)
For example in my arcade today there was an offside in the goal, and in my league happened the same on Sunday. And I have seen It many times.
it's true that it works well but sometimes it has some bugs very remarkable. Is it possible to correct It?
Maybe when it is rewritten, it would be possible...It's essential for tactics.
(edited)
Well, as we said, ME need to wait for general update, then we will work with it.
Its complex mechanism, and lot to do with it, so we treat it like seperate project in second step after general update.
Its complex mechanism, and lot to do with it, so we treat it like seperate project in second step after general update.
Well we had pools, but pool can be result of Poland users,. We just need to make game for all users including Poland. I think money can be regulated with international competition, but even without it league system must be regulated by users in country.
Anyway one example of system with different numbers of teams in league. Almost all can fit in 14 weeks
*L1 - league matchday 1
*champ L1 - league divides in 2 groups, one for champion one for relegation, so champ L1 is matchday 1 for continuing championship among best teams, points from previous matches are included.
*2nd r1 3rd r1 4th r1- 2nd round of matchday 1, and so on. So 8 teams league all teams will play with each others 4 times.
league 20 teams they play one match and then league splits in 2 groups.
league 16 teams standard home away system, but they have one week more. This system have this extra week, so it doesnt need to be used.
league 14 teams standard home away system, but missing one week, so there is possible to have additionally generated 2 matches home away, 1st vs 2nd, 3rd vs 4th...
league 12 teams standard home away system, then splits in 2 groups and all play additional matches
league 10 teams standard home away system plus 3rd round
league 8 teams standard home away system plus 3rd and 4th round
We can speak about 18 teams also or something else, but if basic is not under consideration then no use.
(edited)
Anyway one example of system with different numbers of teams in league. Almost all can fit in 14 weeks
*L1 - league matchday 1
*champ L1 - league divides in 2 groups, one for champion one for relegation, so champ L1 is matchday 1 for continuing championship among best teams, points from previous matches are included.
*2nd r1 3rd r1 4th r1- 2nd round of matchday 1, and so on. So 8 teams league all teams will play with each others 4 times.
league 20 teams they play one match and then league splits in 2 groups.
league 16 teams standard home away system, but they have one week more. This system have this extra week, so it doesnt need to be used.
league 14 teams standard home away system, but missing one week, so there is possible to have additionally generated 2 matches home away, 1st vs 2nd, 3rd vs 4th...
league 12 teams standard home away system, then splits in 2 groups and all play additional matches
league 10 teams standard home away system plus 3rd round
league 8 teams standard home away system plus 3rd and 4th round
We can speak about 18 teams also or something else, but if basic is not under consideration then no use.
(edited)
I certainly think the idea you are getting at (different number of teams in different countries depending on size of country) is something that could be considered.
I would also add in a 6teams one, as that is what a lot of smaller countries would need (already 8 is too big for many), but it is a very interesting idea, and one that should be considered if they are going to continue along the lines of two league matches per week.
This way you could make it so every country has the same number of leagues, which would help fix this whole sponsorship saga, and also give the larger and the smaller countries what they need (although this assumes merging small countries is not an option as that would be a more simple method to helping create equality).
It is very interesting, and I think this kind of thinking would be an improvement on the current system.
I would also add in a 6teams one, as that is what a lot of smaller countries would need (already 8 is too big for many), but it is a very interesting idea, and one that should be considered if they are going to continue along the lines of two league matches per week.
This way you could make it so every country has the same number of leagues, which would help fix this whole sponsorship saga, and also give the larger and the smaller countries what they need (although this assumes merging small countries is not an option as that would be a more simple method to helping create equality).
It is very interesting, and I think this kind of thinking would be an improvement on the current system.
Well its a start, we will see where it goes. You mentioned league of 6 teams, who knows maybe that system works with small nations. Maybe 22 or more teams in league is attractive to users in Poland, but i didnt want to push to hard, 20 is also nice concept.
Hybrid league systems sound great to me.
12, 8 and 6 sound like good standards. I wouldn't go higher because of this poll result.
12 teams is good for Poland and it is already planned. 11 weeks for 22 rounds.
8 teams is good because we already have that many teams. After the standard 14 rounds you can make top 4 and bottom 4 teams play 6 more rounds against each other. That is 20 total, which requires 10 weeks.
6 teams is superb for small Sokker nations. Just make everyone play 4 rounds. That is 20 total, which requires 10 weeks.
Now, the gap between seasons would be very big for 8 and 6 teams systems, so you can make the season shorter (12 weeks), or you can insert an extra break for 8 and 6 teams systems.
Extra break for a 6 teams league would be in the middle, but for a 8 team league it would be before those 6 rounds.
12, 8 and 6 sound like good standards. I wouldn't go higher because of this poll result.
12 teams is good for Poland and it is already planned. 11 weeks for 22 rounds.
8 teams is good because we already have that many teams. After the standard 14 rounds you can make top 4 and bottom 4 teams play 6 more rounds against each other. That is 20 total, which requires 10 weeks.
6 teams is superb for small Sokker nations. Just make everyone play 4 rounds. That is 20 total, which requires 10 weeks.
Now, the gap between seasons would be very big for 8 and 6 teams systems, so you can make the season shorter (12 weeks), or you can insert an extra break for 8 and 6 teams systems.
Extra break for a 6 teams league would be in the middle, but for a 8 team league it would be before those 6 rounds.
They can do poll in Poland and test what users would like there. They didnt offer option 16 or 20, this poll aproach wasnt open-minded.
Do the poll again only in Poland, represent that this system will be only in Poland and how it will work with 20, with 16, 14 or 12 teams. Im sure many will accept 20 teams in league and it will be both fast and entertaining season.
But i doubt DEVs want to go with this, at the moment they have some kind of plan how future will be and probably not in a direction to change it to new idea.
Do the poll again only in Poland, represent that this system will be only in Poland and how it will work with 20, with 16, 14 or 12 teams. Im sure many will accept 20 teams in league and it will be both fast and entertaining season.
But i doubt DEVs want to go with this, at the moment they have some kind of plan how future will be and probably not in a direction to change it to new idea.
lets not get into combinations, effort for nothing :)
btw to much warmup
btw to much warmup
It wasn't too much effort :)
It is mostly so people can easily understand some concepts. I would bring these down to 12 weeks.
It is mostly so people can easily understand some concepts. I would bring these down to 12 weeks.
2 championship games per week just killing possibility to have another decent international competition.
What that competition should be is another topic but it would give more purpose of the season for a lot of teams and if you need to qualify for it will push you to climb up as possible play to win right..
Now 12 teams in leguage will stimulate existing in middle safe area ..
What that competition should be is another topic but it would give more purpose of the season for a lot of teams and if you need to qualify for it will push you to climb up as possible play to win right..
Now 12 teams in leguage will stimulate existing in middle safe area ..