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Subject: »[info]Dev Diary #82: Automatic release of NT-players from
The ME has taken players and tactics on the account and calculated the final result (4:0). Then the animation is generated and there should be shown that your team had chances to win even higher. Unfortunately, the animation generates such missed goal scenes.
What do I want to say with that?
The ME works great. The problem is with the animation (if you consider it as a problem)
What do I want to say with that?
The ME works great. The problem is with the animation (if you consider it as a problem)
The ME has taken players and tactics on the account and calculated the final result (4:0). Then the animation is generated and there should be shown that your team had chances to win even higher. Unfortunately, the animation generates such missed goal scenes.
That's not how match engine works.
Match engine generates all events on the pitch, all player movements, all passes, dribbles, shots, etc. with some small time incrementation, score (and other things like injuries, cards) is simply the result of these events, and animation is almost exactly what the match engine generated (almost because there is some lossy compression with player's movement to save on space, so the positioning of players may not be accurate all the times, that's where bugs with offsides come from). Match engine = animation.
Failed shots on empty goal exist because the match engine doesn't care if there is a goalkeeper in the goal or not, striker will shot with the same inaccuracy as always.
That's not how match engine works.
Match engine generates all events on the pitch, all player movements, all passes, dribbles, shots, etc. with some small time incrementation, score (and other things like injuries, cards) is simply the result of these events, and animation is almost exactly what the match engine generated (almost because there is some lossy compression with player's movement to save on space, so the positioning of players may not be accurate all the times, that's where bugs with offsides come from). Match engine = animation.
Failed shots on empty goal exist because the match engine doesn't care if there is a goalkeeper in the goal or not, striker will shot with the same inaccuracy as always.
What makes you believe, that your assumption is right and my assumption is wrong?
As far, as I haven't seen the code, I talk about assumptions. However, there are some indications that speak for my opinion, such as the fact that you can see the score immediately after the whistle.
Also, I have discussed this with IT-programmers and they said that both are possible.
As far, as I haven't seen the code, I talk about assumptions. However, there are some indications that speak for my opinion, such as the fact that you can see the score immediately after the whistle.
Also, I have discussed this with IT-programmers and they said that both are possible.
What makes you believe, that your assumption is right and my assumption is wrong?
Logic :)
The ME has taken players and tactics on the account and calculated the final result (4:0). - this would be a match engine
Then the animation is generated and there should be shown that your team had chances to win even higher. - and how the animation would be generated? By algorithm which needs to take into consideration players' skills, tactics to generate believable events... that's the definition of a match engine.
So in your assumption there are two match engines which needs to generate the same result - there is no reason for this to work this way, no sane person would design it like that.
However, there are some indications that speak for my opinion, such as the fact that you can see the score immediately after the whistle.
Why would that confirm your theory? Whole match (report and animation) is generated and saved in sokker databases at the same time, very quickly. When you open the match viewer your browser downloads a file with all the animation info for the whole match, if you decoded that file you could get a match result in one second as well.
Logic :)
The ME has taken players and tactics on the account and calculated the final result (4:0). - this would be a match engine
Then the animation is generated and there should be shown that your team had chances to win even higher. - and how the animation would be generated? By algorithm which needs to take into consideration players' skills, tactics to generate believable events... that's the definition of a match engine.
So in your assumption there are two match engines which needs to generate the same result - there is no reason for this to work this way, no sane person would design it like that.
However, there are some indications that speak for my opinion, such as the fact that you can see the score immediately after the whistle.
Why would that confirm your theory? Whole match (report and animation) is generated and saved in sokker databases at the same time, very quickly. When you open the match viewer your browser downloads a file with all the animation info for the whole match, if you decoded that file you could get a match result in one second as well.
"how the animation would be generated? "
By modules.
"So in your assumption there are two match engines"
No. I said something else.
One ME and animation gets created by modules, e.g. 15-30 modules for 90 minutes of match and the matching points of these modules is when the ball goes out, or when the ball is in keeper hands. It#s a possibility.
"...the whistle. Why would that confirm your theory?
It does not confirm. It just indicates, that it can be so.
And the animation file that you mentioned indicates, that it can be also the other way..
Both ways are possible and only one who read the code can know. Everything else is pure assumptions.
And now I go to the beach... ;P
By modules.
"So in your assumption there are two match engines"
No. I said something else.
One ME and animation gets created by modules, e.g. 15-30 modules for 90 minutes of match and the matching points of these modules is when the ball goes out, or when the ball is in keeper hands. It#s a possibility.
"...the whistle. Why would that confirm your theory?
It does not confirm. It just indicates, that it can be so.
And the animation file that you mentioned indicates, that it can be also the other way..
Both ways are possible and only one who read the code can know. Everything else is pure assumptions.
And now I go to the beach... ;P
I don't know how Sokker generation works, but the game I'm working on generates every action sequentially and stores the orders that will send to the viewer to play the corresponding animation. Since the server knows how long every animation is, it can generate the next action immediately, adding the corresponding time to the sequence. So, a whole game can be calculated in under a second
I see tsolias theory very complex. Maybe it could be used for Hattrick, but Sokker seems to take into account every player skill at every action, and that's why we love it :P
(edited)
I see tsolias theory very complex. Maybe it could be used for Hattrick, but Sokker seems to take into account every player skill at every action, and that's why we love it :P
(edited)
I think the truth about sokker is in between the 2 thesis. Sokker generates the events in advance and at at the end is goal or no goal but viewer some times fucks up and makes event to look stupid like own goals or goals from far away or defenders wit superb skills to miss 3 or 4 tacles in a row or the just move and make room for strikers..
For me, Sokker bases his goals a lot on mistakes, bad control, bad passes, the gk drops the ball, etc. and few goals from good plays.
well, i think that will be best but unfortunately, iv seen superb NT player to make stupid mistakes (against very week players) cause randomness in events also exists..
That's not how match engine works.
Match engine generates all events on the pitch, all player movements, all passes, dribbles, shots, etc. with some small time incrementation, score (and other things like injuries, cards) is simply the result of these events, and animation is almost exactly what the match engine generated (almost because there is some lossy compression with player's movement to save on space, so the positioning of players may not be accurate all the times, that's where bugs with offsides come from). Match engine = animation.
Failed shots on empty goal exist because the match engine doesn't care if there is a goalkeeper in the goal or not, striker will shot with the same inaccuracy as always.
I agree with you.
Basically, ME follows the ball.
Ball is in spot (x,y), all players will move according to tactics setup and skills when the ball is in that spot, the closest/fastest player will get it, decide what to do with it based on his order and skills, opponent's closest player will try to take it away from him, who ever wins the contest will move the ball to a different spot and the loop goes on.
_
(edited)
Match engine generates all events on the pitch, all player movements, all passes, dribbles, shots, etc. with some small time incrementation, score (and other things like injuries, cards) is simply the result of these events, and animation is almost exactly what the match engine generated (almost because there is some lossy compression with player's movement to save on space, so the positioning of players may not be accurate all the times, that's where bugs with offsides come from). Match engine = animation.
Failed shots on empty goal exist because the match engine doesn't care if there is a goalkeeper in the goal or not, striker will shot with the same inaccuracy as always.
I agree with you.
Basically, ME follows the ball.
Ball is in spot (x,y), all players will move according to tactics setup and skills when the ball is in that spot, the closest/fastest player will get it, decide what to do with it based on his order and skills, opponent's closest player will try to take it away from him, who ever wins the contest will move the ball to a different spot and the loop goes on.
_
(edited)
Ball is in spot (x,y), all players will move according to tactics setup and skills when the ball is in that spot, the closest/fastest player will get it, decide what to do with it(...)
That's true. ME generates immidiately keyfames for 23 objects (22 players and ball). Those keyframes are generated in some time resolution. What we see in browser is just player which takes those keyframes and generates animation based on it. That means player(viewer) generates also frames between keyframes. And this is place where "bugs" happens - offsides are calculated only for keyframes. All frames between can show situation that breaks rules but you can't do anything about it.
Its like with movie which you download from internet - it has tousends of frames and you see it like a movie for f.e. 1 hour, but all that frames are there. By sokker you just can't play forward faster while this option is blocked before time when match was generated + match length.
That's true. ME generates immidiately keyfames for 23 objects (22 players and ball). Those keyframes are generated in some time resolution. What we see in browser is just player which takes those keyframes and generates animation based on it. That means player(viewer) generates also frames between keyframes. And this is place where "bugs" happens - offsides are calculated only for keyframes. All frames between can show situation that breaks rules but you can't do anything about it.
Its like with movie which you download from internet - it has tousends of frames and you see it like a movie for f.e. 1 hour, but all that frames are there. By sokker you just can't play forward faster while this option is blocked before time when match was generated + match length.
"Ball is in spot (x,y), all players will move according to tactics setup and skills when the ball is in that spot, the closest/fastest player will get it, ..."
I absolute agree with this
and about offside goals, consider that ofside goals on 2D were regularly goals on 3D! We had a funny discussion on the past on the german forum with Woody. Me, I watched the match on 2D and I saw offside and Woody, he saw the match on 3D and on 3D there was no ofside... Funny thiing, not? ;)
I absolute agree with this
and about offside goals, consider that ofside goals on 2D were regularly goals on 3D! We had a funny discussion on the past on the german forum with Woody. Me, I watched the match on 2D and I saw offside and Woody, he saw the match on 3D and on 3D there was no ofside... Funny thiing, not? ;)
The ME works great. The problem is with the animation (if you consider it as a problem)
I fully disagree!
Cobe Palinck, age: 35
club: Racing Roeland, country: België
value : 804 750 €
wage: 12 550 €
good [7] form
unearthly [16] tactical discipline
height: 173 cm, weight: 77.1 kg, BMI: 25.76
bookings:
formidable [11] stamina tragic [0] keeper
incredible [13] pace weak [4] defender
magical [15] technique good [7] playmaker
adequate [6] passing magical [15] striker
Scored 6 goals in 20 chances and gave 2 assists, all in 4 league matches
Ibrahim Vrancken, age: 26
club: Racing Roeland, country: België
value : 1 954 250 €
wage: 28 425 €
very good [9] form
unearthly [16] tactical discipline
height: 175 cm, weight: 81.5 kg, BMI: 26.61
excellent [10] stamina hopeless [1] keeper
divine [17] pace adequate [6] defender
divine [17] technique good [7] playmaker
adequate [6] passing superdivine [18] striker
Scored 7 goals in 34 chances and gave zero assists, all in 5 matches!
They both stood next to each other in each of the 4 matches they played together.
Now, you can say whatever you want about the animation of the match, but the fact that you can see that Palinck is faster on the pitch, while being clearly slower in skill is imo the largest proof that the ME doesn't work as it should!
It deforms skills, making bad players play very well and world class players play like shit.
This ME is broken. I've seen enough proof now.
I fully disagree!
Cobe Palinck, age: 35
club: Racing Roeland, country: België
value : 804 750 €
wage: 12 550 €
good [7] form
unearthly [16] tactical discipline
height: 173 cm, weight: 77.1 kg, BMI: 25.76
bookings:
formidable [11] stamina tragic [0] keeper
incredible [13] pace weak [4] defender
magical [15] technique good [7] playmaker
adequate [6] passing magical [15] striker
Scored 6 goals in 20 chances and gave 2 assists, all in 4 league matches
Ibrahim Vrancken, age: 26
club: Racing Roeland, country: België
value : 1 954 250 €
wage: 28 425 €
very good [9] form
unearthly [16] tactical discipline
height: 175 cm, weight: 81.5 kg, BMI: 26.61
excellent [10] stamina hopeless [1] keeper
divine [17] pace adequate [6] defender
divine [17] technique good [7] playmaker
adequate [6] passing superdivine [18] striker
Scored 7 goals in 34 chances and gave zero assists, all in 5 matches!
They both stood next to each other in each of the 4 matches they played together.
Now, you can say whatever you want about the animation of the match, but the fact that you can see that Palinck is faster on the pitch, while being clearly slower in skill is imo the largest proof that the ME doesn't work as it should!
It deforms skills, making bad players play very well and world class players play like shit.
This ME is broken. I've seen enough proof now.
Man it depends also on tactics (yours and from your oponent) and it depends also on the rest of the skills (like experience, like form etc)
I scored in 3 friendlies against a keeper with rating 70+ with strikers of skill 6, 5 and with 4!!!
Your comparison is total incomplete. Sokker is more complicated.
I scored in 3 friendlies against a keeper with rating 70+ with strikers of skill 6, 5 and with 4!!!
Your comparison is total incomplete. Sokker is more complicated.
Sokker is more complicated
It's not complicated, it's stupid :D.
It's not complicated, it's stupid :D.
i think also depends on team ratings defence vs attack per zone also the skills of the player i doing the assist and probably team aspects we all know sokker was flowing a bit hattrick in the beginning..